Buying Adjacent Lot—Buildable?

[The Cosmic Avenger]

The drawing in the OP does not show that lot 41 has access to a road. It's landlocked unless lot 41 gets access by other means or is a contiguous holding to another property not shown on the map. 2 Questions. Is the property for sale only lot 41? If so, how does it get access to a road?

The key is, the property in question is at the edge of the map, so we don't know if there's road frontage at all. But they could try to purchase an easement from any of the surrounding landowners, so that wouldn't determine whether it's potentially buildable or not. The more obstacles to building, though, the better for Al, because they should collectively drive the market price down.

 

[Bestwifeever]

The drawing in the OP does not show that lot 41 has access to a road. It's landlocked unless lot 41 gets access by other means or is a contiguous holding to another property not shown on the map. 2 Questions. Is the property for sale only lot 41? If so, how does it get access to a road?

On this T-Al thread in the plat in his first post, it looks like there is a road at the bottom http://www.early-retirement.org/for...se-land-survey-numbers-99630.html#post2289074

Eta it looks like the access driveway is really an easement for Al’s neighbor to the north (?) who doeas appear to be landlocked, but triangle lot seems to have street access

 

[Ronstar]

On this T-Al thread in the plat in his first post, it looks like there is a road at the bottom http://www.early-retirement.org/for...se-land-survey-numbers-99630.html#post2289074

Eta it looks like the access driveway is really an easement for Al’s neighbor to the north (?) who doeas appear to be landlocked, but triangle lot seems to have street access

Ahhh - I see what looks like a road south of lot 41 on that drawing in the other thread.

But I think that the access driveway terminating at 40 and 42 is really a street (a narrow one). Easements are generally dashed lines. Doesn't affect Lot 41 though.

 

[NW-Bound]

On this T-Al thread in the plat in his first post, it looks like there is a road at the bottom http://www.early-retirement.org/for...se-land-survey-numbers-99630.html#post2289074

Eta it looks like the access driveway is really an easement for Al’s neighbor to the north (?) who doeas appear to be landlocked, but triangle lot seems to have street access

Yes. My memory is still good, from seeing that earlier.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Yes, I meant it appears to be the only access for the lot above Al’s, which I probably erroneously termed an easement as I assumed it was owned by the two property owners whose lots it cuts through—obviously a drive now.

 

[Ronstar]

^ easy to think it is an easement - it's very narrow.

 

[NW-Bound]

Hence, I mentioned that the future lot owner will have to build his house further south from T-Al, in order to be close to the frontage road.

And T-Al is already at the back edge of his lot, and there should be plenty of separation, compared to the distance he has right now to the neighbor with the "jetty".

And even if the new neighbor wants to build at the NW corner of his lot (and have a long driveway), same as T-Al did with his home, the distance there is still a lot more than to the neighbor with the "jetty" and the new fence. There are also many trees on T-Al's lot in between the houses, and I assume that T-Al would not chop them down.

PS. In short, I see no reason to buy the lot as a buffer zone. Of course, if T-Al wants to expand his empire, that's something else.

PPS. Oops. I did not mean the pointed NW corner of the lot, but rather the mid-point of the lot where the potential home is closest to T-Al's home.

 

[Bestwifeever]

^ easy to think it is an easement - it's very narrow.

I think I now know (not that I do, I just think I do) more about Al’s little neighborhood’s peculiarities than about my own! too much time on my hands with DH out of town this week....

 

[NW-Bound]

Speaking of land values, I don't know much about this subject, other than it's location, location, location.

I just recall that around 25 years ago, we thought of buying a lot up in Sedona, AZ, as an investment. I mentioned this because I know many posters here have visited this touristy town.

Anyway, we went with a realtor and looked at a few lots. As I recall, they were from $70K to $120K for the lots that we looked at, with size of around 1/4 acre. In the end, we decided not to pursue it.

Just now, went on Zillow to look, and found out that there are still plenty of empty lots for that price range. So, I did well by keeping my money in stocks instead.

By the way, the houses where these empty lots sit go for around $500K.

I am surprised that land price has not gone up that much, despite the lament I read recently that the high cost of homes there has driven out teachers and other workers who could not afford to live there, and that so many homes have been turned into Airbnbs.

Just something interesting to share.

 

[Ronstar]

I would think that lot 41 is buildable. Lot 41 looks like it is 0.70 acres, where Al's appears to be 0.64 acres. Most likely residential zoned lot like Al's. No apparent flood plane. Don't know building setback req's, but the lot has 150' of frontage.

Heavily wooded, but don't know if topography has severe slopes that makes building a problem.

Sewage disposal and water supply could be issues if there are new regs in place since the area was subdivided.

 

[mountainsoft]

We would like to purchase it simply to keep someone else from building a house on it. It sounds like it would cost around $150,000.

However, it's not clear that it's a buildable lot. If it isn't there's no point in our buying it.

If I'm reading the survey map correctly, that lower end is about 150' wide. Assuming you have a typical 30' setback from each property line, that still leaves a 90' area in the middle where a house could be built. Even if there's a 30' road easement on the right side, there would still be 60' of buildable area. You could certainly fit a house in 60' (ours is 40'x40').

We have just about two acres, but it's kind of oddly shaped because the county road curves down and up along the top edge of the property. So we have a couple of triangular corners at the top left and top right (facing north) that are "unbuildable" because of set backs. We also have a road easement on the east side that would prevent us from building along 60' of the east side. Despite all those setbacks we had plenty of area for a house, garage, and septic field.

Thankfully, the development behind us put in their own road from the other direction, and there's a steep stream valley behind us. So the odds of our road easement ever being used now is extremely small. I checked with the county once about having the easement removed, but was essentially told that once it's on the books it's very expensive and nearly impossible to have it removed. So we're stuck with it and just have to hope it's never used.

The property across the road from us is also an odd shape. With various set backs and a 100' setback on each side of a stream that runs diagonally through the property I thought it was probably an unbuildable lot too. Of course, a developer managed to find the one buildable area up on the ridge to build a million dollar McMansion that overlooks our own property. So now we joke we live in the servants quarters down below. It was a sad day when that monstrosity was built after we moved out here to get away from things.

The property on our west side was purchased by a nice middle aged couple. They lived there a couple years and ended up buying the property behind both our lots to prevent someone from building on it. They ended up moving to a larger piece of property about a half mile up the road. As far as I know they still own both lots and rent out the house.

Even if the lot next to you is unbuildable for some reason, someone could buy it for the timber and log it all off at some point. Or, someone may buy it as "recreational" land to setup their camp trailer, ride motorcycles, have parties, or whatever. Or, mining, drilling for oil/natural gas, who knows...

Sadly, we couldn't afford to buy any of our surrounding properties. Developers came in and logged over 80 acres of forest, subdivided into roughly five acre lots, and banged up lots of mini-mansions. Thankfully forest has regrown in areas between lots so it doesn't feel like we're in a subdivision so much. But during the winter we can see the surrounding houses and access roads and realize how close everyone really is.

Unless you can afford a large 80-160 acre wooded parcel and build right in the middle of it, I don't think you can escape neighbors or surrounding development. Maybe if you could find a lot abutting a national forest or something.

 

[pb4uski]

..... I checked with the county once about having the easement removed, but was essentially told that once it's on the books it's very expensive and nearly impossible to have it removed. ....

I'm surprised at that. If all the property owners with easement rights sign off on it and you have it recorded then I think you are all set.... but check with a lawyer.

I have a friend who bought a lakefront property that another property had a lake access easement. Coincidentally, the property that had the lake access easement was owned by his parents.... he bought the property because it was close to his parent's and brother's properties. When his parents passed, he bought the property from the estate and then as owner of the property signed of on erasing the lake access rights and had all of that recorded.

He then later sold the property (with no lake access rights).... interestingly, to someone who owned an adjoining property on the other side and already had lake access so the lack of lake access wan't an issue with them.

In your case, since the property owners with an easement don't intend to use it, they may be agreeable to signing off on getting rid of it.

 

[mountainsoft]

In your case, since the property owners with an easement don't intend to use it, they may be agreeable to signing off on getting rid of it.

It has been well over 25 years since I checked into it, so I'm probably forgetting details about that conversation. But I believe there was a whole process they went through, filing fees to get it started, sending out notices to the surrounding property owners, and I think something else too. If I remember correctly, it would have cost several thousand dollars to get it removed, something we certainly couldn't afford back then.

My thinking was the original developer didn't use it, so I wasn't going to point it out to the new property owners. "Hey, you could use our easement for shorter access to your property". If they don't know about it, I wasn't going to bring it up.

As I said, it looks good on paper, but the topography of the land makes it unlikely it would ever be used at this point. There's much easier access from the private road running through the development behind us. They're one of those private gated communities.

My neighbor to the east who shares that easement ran a driveway down the property line thinking it might be used as a road some day anyway. Then they placed an ugly rusted metal storage shed at the end of the driveway. Naturally, it's directly in view outside my office window. I'm not sure why they want it so far from their house, but that's neighbors for you.

 

[pb4uski]

....I'm not sure why they want it so far from their house...

Ok, I know the answer to that.... so they wouldn't have to look at it.

 

[TromboneAl]

Thanks for the advice.

Yes, there is road access at the bottom of the map (our driveway goes to a different road). It may not be buildable because much of it is quite steep. But, as Aerides and others pointed out, someone may try to build anyway.

I'll go take a photo or two.

I'll contact the county's planning division.

Maybe I'll tell the real estate agent, "Hey, you can save yourself a lot of hassle and expense if you just sell it to me now. I can cut a check tomorrow," but aren't they going to realize that I'm desperate to buy it and up the price?

We actually did this once before, paying $25K for a neighboring lot.

 

[Senator]

Maybe I'll tell the real estate agent, "Hey, you can save yourself a lot of hassle and expense if you just sell it to me now. I can cut a check tomorrow," but aren't they going to realize that I'm desperate to buy it and up the price?

Contact the owner directly, and save a real estate commission. The listing may have to expire, or he needs to exclude you from the listing commission. Find the address n the county tax bill.

If you do buy it, you should be able to consolidate the lot into one property ID. That gives you one tax bill, and may save on fees that are allocated on a per lot basis, rather than a valuation basis. The valuation will likely be the same combined as separate.

I just did that with some land in FL.

 

[TromboneAl]

Visiting it again, I think someone could build a small house there. I'll go to the county tomorrow.

From the road:

Looking down the hill:

Should I go through a real estate agent??

 

[TromboneAl]

Contact the owner directly, and save a real estate commission. The listing may have to expire, or he needs to exclude you from the listing commission. Find the address n the county tax bill.

If you do buy it, you should be able to consolidate the lot into one property ID. That gives you one tax bill, and may save on fees that are allocated on a per lot basis, rather than a valuation basis. The valuation will likely be the same combined as separate.

I just did that with some land in FL.

Great info, thanks!

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

Maybe I'll tell the real estate agent, "Hey, you can save yourself a lot of hassle and expense if you just sell it to me now. I can cut a check tomorrow," but aren't they going to realize that I'm desperate to buy it and up the price?

That's why I was thinking you should research all the issues with building on that lot, then you can list them all to the seller or seller's agent, and point out that the price needs to reflect those added costs. (They don't need to know that you won't be developing that lot!)

And the only way not to sound desperate is to be willing to walk away. If it's really not a great lot to build on, they might wait a few weeks or months and then come ask if your original offer still stands. If that happens, my advice is to then try to offer 10% less, but be ready to pay your original offer price if they balk.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

The buyer of the adjacent lot will not be able to build anywhere close to T-Al's home. Usually, the house is put close to the access road to save on cutting and clearing trees, and it looks like the access is on the south edge of that lot.

There will be a lot of trees for separation. I don't see that the new neighbor would be a cause for concern.

"Will not be able to" is relative. I have seen some crazy stuff folks have done with their land.

I'm surprised at that. If all the property owners with easement rights sign off on it and you have it recorded then I think you are all set.... but check with a lawyer.

In your case, since the property owners with an easement don't intend to use it, they may be agreeable to signing off on getting rid of it.

Depending on the jurisdiction, an easement can be abandoned. Not a terrible idea to check with a good RE attorney.

If you do buy it, you should be able to consolidate the lot into one property ID. That gives you one tax bill, and may save on fees that are allocated on a per lot basis, rather than a valuation basis. The valuation will likely be the same combined as separate.

I just did that with some land in FL.

This is highly dependent on the jurisdiction. We recently bought the lot behind us for the same reasons that T-AL stated. It is zoned agricultural and there is a minimum lot size of 5 acres. I could seek a variance to have it split as you describe, but requires no less than $3,000 in survey/application/noticing fees to *try* and get it done...even then the city council can disprove my application.

 

[dirtbiker]

Yikes, $150k for a small lot that is questionably buildable sounds quite high... Then again, I live in a LCOL area where $150k can buy you a fairly nice house in a half decent location. Is that about the going rate for empty lots around you?

We bought the empty lot next to us for exactly the same reason. We didn't want a new neighbor right next to us. Also, our house was built very close to the property line of the lot we bought, so it was almost a necessity. It's great peace of mind knowing that nobody can build right next to us. Of course, we paid $15k for our lot...

 

[Ronstar]

Everything that senator said is spot on with what I've seen.

Should be able to contact the owner and buy directly from the owner after the contract period expires.

Should be able to consolidate the 2 lots into one tax parcel since both properties are zoned the same. Shouldn't require a variance of any kind. Only problem arises if Al later decides to sell the vacant lot and/or his house separately. Then he would need to do a tax split.

As to abandoning easements - the process is called abrogating and its usually quite simple if an easement is only an access easement where all parties to the easement agree to the abrogation. Not so simple if there are utility companies that are parties to the easement and there are utilities present in the easement. It doesn't appear like any easements would be involved in the purchase of Lot 41.

 

[ABQ2015]

That price sounds like a steal to me for a large lot in your area of California. I'd buy it to preserve your quality of life. And if the lot is not buildable now because of residential single family home lot size and setback restrictions, there is always the possibility that it could be rezoned in the future and you may not like what they build there or the permissive uses.

Our neighborhood block is involved in opposing the rezoning of a lot with a developer demolishing the current single family home and building large townhouses with small setbacks. The city is keen on infill and higher density housing. The rezoning would also allow more permissive and conditional uses such as accessory office spaces, an accessory multigenerational unit which could turn into a rental but no increased parking spaces, child care facility, etc.

 

[Bestwifeever]

If it's buildable, imo it's really a nice little investment for the future--enjoy the peaceful privacy and space for now and sell it later when you move or just let your daughter inherit it one day

 

[Senator]

Everything that senator said is spot on with what I've seen.

Should be able to contact the owner and buy directly from the owner after the contract period expires.

Should be able to consolidate the 2 lots into one tax parcel since both properties are zoned the same. Shouldn't require a variance of any kind. Only problem arises if Al later decides to sell the vacant lot and/or his house separately. Then he would need to do a tax split.

As to abandoning easements - the process is called abrogating and its usually quite simple if an easement is only an access easement where all parties to the easement agree to the abrogation. Not so simple if there are utility companies that are parties to the easement and there are utilities present in the easement. It doesn't appear like any easements would be involved in the purchase of Lot 41.

I was told that splitting two parcels, that were once separate, is just as easy as combining. They just bring back the old 'specs' and un-do the combining. Just un-check a few boxes.

This is highly dependent on the jurisdiction. We recently bought the lot behind us for the same reasons that T-AL stated. It is zoned agricultural and there is a minimum lot size of 5 acres. I could seek a variance to have it split as you describe, but requires no less than $3,000 in survey/application/noticing fees to *try* and get it done...even then the city council can disprove my application.

Splitting something that was never split before is an entirely different process than combining or un-combining two lots in an already surveyed sub-division. That indeed takes a survey, etc.