Cardiac Calcium Test -- worth it?

Comparison of CT Angiogram versus regular invasive Angiogram. Source possibly biased but interesting.


https://www.circlecvi.com/education/blog/cardiac-ct-scan-vs-angiogram-whats-the-difference/

A CT angiogram and a traditional angiogram are both effective imaging tests in diagnosing conditions relating to the heart and blood vessels. However, many will favor the non-invasive option of a CT angiogram, which is fast, convenient and relatively painless. A CT angiogram is very accurate in detecting CHD in patients and almost as accurate as a traditional angiogram, allowing doctors to make decisions such as ruling out CAD in patients with a low-to-medium risk of disease.

CT scans are already the preferred method of choice for patients with a pretest probability for CHD of 50% or lower. And with the recent introduction of ultrahigh-resolution CT scanners, it could only be a matter of time until conventional invasive angiograms are slowly filtered out and replaced entirely by CT scanners; due to their accuracy, convenience and development in spatial resolution.
 
Here's some more info that may be helpful. In my case the Big Picture is that my father had a heart attack and bypass at 59 and died of a heart attack at 74. My mother died of a heart attack at 78 but she had other problems that made her situation less than optimal. My two male cousins on my mother's side of the family died of heart attacks at 43 and 56.

With a family background like this I didn't need a 3 digit IQ to figure out what my future was likely to bring. I did my best to stack the deck in my favor. I tried to eat like a reasonable human being. I went through periods of running, bike riding, hiking and weight lifting. I'm far from being athletic but I figured it wouldn't hurt. I picked a career path that I enjoyed very much so I had zero stress in my job. (This is an inside joke since stress analysis was my specialty in mechanical engineering. Loved it.) I've never had any health problems until last year. One time I went 10 years without seeing a doctor of any kind.

When I got on Medicare I thought it would be a good idea to catch up on my medical exams and vaccines and things like that. Being fully aware of my family history I included a cardiac checkup in the mix. In December of 2019 I had my first visit with the cardiac doc. He had two tests done. One was a "nuclear stress test" where they use blood dye before and after exercise to see how well the heart muscles are supplied with blood. The other was an ultrasound of my major arteries (legs, arms) and heart. Neither test showed anything of concern. I was told "do anything you want." I started hiking in the nearby hills and eventually built up to 10 mile hikes 4 days a week.

I had my second heart checkup in Dec of 2020. Nothing obvious was wrong but I was told to have a Cardiac Calcium Test done and Medicare wouldn't pay for it. I said "No problem" and had it done. My score was 21 which isn't zero but it's nothing to worry about. I was given a clean bill of health and unleashed upon the world.

Roughly 7 months later I was hiking in the hills and suddenly felt very tired. Since you're reading this thread you know the rest of the story. The key thing to remember is that I did everything I could reasonably do to investigate my heart health and try to improve my odds of having an uneventful medical future.

None of the tests that were done detected any problems, but they weren't looking for plaque and that's what causes the problems that plagued my family. I made it to 67 years of age before a problem appeared which is longer than the other males in my family but eventually my DNA caught up with me.

I could have eaten kale 3 meals a day for 30 years and chances are good I'd have eventually had a problem with obstructed heart arteries. My total cholesterol was usually within allowed levels so it wasn't an obvious problem either. 212 was my highest total cholesterol and that was in 2007. My LDL cholesterol was a bit high for a long time, between 120-140. After I started hiking it dropped to 96 which is okay but still close to the upper acceptable limit of 100. Other than this my blood chemistry history was good. I wasn't taking any prescription medications.

So where did things go wrong? I think there were two major factors in all this. First is that my DNA wasn't working in my favor. My family has had a history of obstructed arteries and heart attacks. There was nothing I could do about this but try to eat reasonably well and exercise. The second factor is that the usual heart tests (nuclear stress, CCT and ultrasound) don't detect plaque. The only test that detects plaque (actually the obstructions created by plaque...) is an angiogram and you're not going to get this test unless something is wrong that justifies the risk.

What causes obstructed arteries? Plaque.

Is there a commonly available test that can detect plaque without a 1% chance of killing you? No.

That's pretty much the bottom line.

I made a mistake by not looking into this subject to a greater depth. I assumed my cardiac doc knew what was going on inside me and medical technology could detect any problems I might have. This was almost a fatal mistake.

One thing that stands out as a red flag is that a few months before my cardiac adventure I started having good days and bad days when I was hiking. My usual hike started with 3.3 miles of uphill hiking with an elevation gain of 1,300 ft. Usually I'd get to the top of the peak and feel fine. I'd sit down for a minute or two and be ready to go again. Then I started having the occasional day when I'd get to the top of the peak and it would take me maybe 5-10 minutes to catch my breath and be ready to go again. This would happen every couple weeks. The I'd have days when it took me 15 minutes to recover. I wondered what was causing this. There weren't many hikers out there in my age group. (I know a couple guys in their high 80's so there are older hikers too, but not a lot of them.) I've never been 67 years old before so maybe this was just a normal part of aging.

Wrong.

After you have a problem with obstructed arteries you are almost always prescribed a max dosage of a statin because they greatly reduce or eliminate plaque buildup in your arteries. So even if your cholesterol is very low chances are good that you'll be given a prescription for a statin before you leave the hospital. Some people (like me) have adverse reactions to them and end up taking Repatha or Praluent injections to get the same result. These are called PCSK9 inhibitors. Repatha was approved by the FDA in 2015. Praluent was approved in 2019. They're not cheap.

After I had the stents installed and we worked through the problems caused by Crestor (which don't happen to everybody) I started hiking again. I'm not quite back to where I used to be but I'm getting closer. I should be in good shape in another couple months. One thing I've noticed is that it never takes me more than 1-2 minutes to catch my breath when I'm exhausted. Never. Maybe the problem I was having with this earlier was an indication of my heart arteries gradually being pushed beyond their capacity and this was caused by plaque accumulation slowly reducing the blood flow area.

Healthy arteries have plenty of capacity. The general guideline for stents and bypass operations is that arteries need to be obstructed 75% or more before they'll do anything. I was able to hike up and down hills for hours with arteries that were almost fully obstructed. There was enough blood trickling through to keep my heart going without a problem but eventually the obstructions reduced the flow enough for me to notice it. None of the tests I had revealed a problem.

This thread started with the question of where a Cardiac Calcium Test is worth having. In my case it didn't identify a problem that was present and could have ended with my death. The fact that I didn't die was probably due to my general fitness at the time, having an extra heart artery that 80% of the population doesn't have and having a good hospital less than 5 miles from home.

After I was released from the hospital I had a followup visit with the stent specialist who put in the last two stents. I just wanted to talk with her about what took place and what my future situation looked like. As we were finishing up I asked her why I didn't die that day. My problem manifested itself in an inconvenient location and it took me a while to get back to civilization and get help. I had 3 arteries that were highly obstructed. The LAD was almost totally obstructed. I didn't feel any pain and didn't have cardiac arrest and I survived the day. Her response was "Sometimes you just get lucky."

Maybe this info and my other postings will help others avoid a situation where you need luck to survive. Look at your family history and pay attention to how you are feeling. Try to get in reasonable physical shape and resist the temptation to eat bacon 7 days a week.

Babble over.
 
Dad had the bonus artery and it got him from first heart attack @51 to 63. He likely would not have survived the first one without it.
 
Maybe this info and my other postings will help others avoid a situation where you need luck to survive. Look at your family history and pay attention to how you are feeling. Try to get in reasonable physical shape and resist the temptation to eat bacon 7 days a week.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I'm the guy above that had the SVT and got it fixed, although I was having episodes of it for several weeks before I decided that 200 beats per minute and almost passing out was clearly a problem for a fit 76 year old guy.

Until those episodes, I had never been to a cardiologist. No reason to go, no issues with blood work, pains, shortness of breath, etc. And my family history shows no one with any heart problems. Mom died of kidney failure in her 80s and Vodka got Dad at 62. My aunts, uncles, sisters and cousins had no history of heart issues either, as far as I know.

So for me, the SVT was really an electrical problem, but who knows going forward?

Right now I am 78 3/4 and play golf weekly and walk 10,000 steps per day on average. I was a long distance runner (serious one) back in my 30's and 40's and I assume that all those years of pounding helped my cardio system, but wore out both hips which were replaced already.
 
Maybe this info and my other postings will help others avoid a situation where you need luck to survive. Look at your family history and pay attention to how you are feeling. Try to get in reasonable physical shape and resist the temptation to eat bacon 7 days a week.

Babble over.

Add my thanks to the ones you've already gotten. I didn't pay much attention to what my heart was doing till a couple of years ago, other than watching diet and exercise and monitoring cholesterol levels (including the various deltas and ratios among components).

Then I started having shortness of breath on mild exertion, like bicycling uphill. Passed the treadmill stress test with flying colors, calcium score was 1, but the echocardiogram showed backflow in the valves- ejection fraction was 65-70%. Not much they do at this point but monitor it and it was stable over 6 months between tests and the next one is in 12 months. My cardiologist is very positive about my continued exercise- he said, "Live your life but don't overdo it". I'm finally starting to calm down and I have a FitBit so I can look for changes in patterns, which have not occurred so far. I can see from your story that it's important to notice "quantum" changes and not chalk them up to old age.

And it's good to know that the calcium score does not mean my arteries are squeaky-clean.

By the way, my sister the doctor tells me that the LAD artery is known as The Widowmaker.;)
 
Since I'm the one who wrote about the questionable value of a Cardiac Calcium Test I'll babble a little about my experience and what I've learned since then.

FWIW, I do think the test has value although it has its limits. As I understand it, the test is best for those people who have some increased risk of heart disease but don't have symptoms and don't have diagnosed heart disease.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/heal...e screening heart,risk of future heart attack.

The above Cleveland clinic article makes the point you made. This won't find everything.

Because there are certain forms of coronary disease -- such as "soft plaque" atherosclerosis – that escape detection during this CT scan, it is important to remember that this test is not absolute in predicting your risk for a life-threatening event, such as a heart attack

I think the way to look at is not to assume you are home free if you have a "good" score. However, if you don't have a good score maybe you should do more to test. For example, I have somewhat elevated total cholesterol and LDL, but also good HDL. My primary care doctor does not recommend a statin for me (years ago, I did take one but guidelines have since changed). Maybe if I did this test and I was at higher risk then I would see a cardiologist and get more stuff checked.

DH recently had a routine CT lung scan because he used to smoke (stopped many years ago). Anyway, for the first time they noticed on the scan something indicating he might have heart disease. He has perfect cholesterol levels, wonderful LDL levels, etc. All of his numbers are great. But he went to a cardiologist and found that he does have plaque but does not have elevated cholesterol. So sometimes you do have good results on a screening test but do still have a problem. Still, the screening test may be helpful for those people where it does indicate a problem they didn't know they had.


An angiogram is pretty much the gold standard for detecting plaque. It doesn't show plaque either but it shows if any of your arteries are obstructed.

Sure, but that is a really invasive test and it would nuts to do just routinely do that test on everyone who might have a somewhat elevated risk for heart disease. The calcium scan will find some people who would never have had an angiogram. If someone, has symptoms or diagnosed heart disease and needs an angiogram then the calcium test isn't the right test for them.


I wish I had never had the test. I think its a scam because the doctor told me if I would go to a hospital 50 miles away my insurance would pay. I just paid the local hospital $130 here one mile from my home.

I don't know why you think it is a scam or why you wish you didn't have the test. It sounds like it gave valuable information. If I had that score I would be regularly getting checked out by a cardiologist. If it never gets worse, then great. But it would be good to know I should get checked out.

The test is not a scam. It is more helpful for some people than others. That is true of a lot of tests.


I looked at this. I think the score has value for those it has value for. That is, there are people who are at higher risk but haven't been diagnosed with heart disease. If they have a high score on this test then they might want to look further with a cardiologist. If they don't get a high score then they aren't home free for good, of course. If I was at higher risk of cardiac problems but had no diagnosed heart disease then I would be glad to do this test and, if I scored high, I would certainly be regularly monitored by a cardiologist. That seems prudent to me. Could the higher risk of some of these people be found without the scan? I am sure it could particularly if they had gold standard monitoring. But most people don't have it. They have a regular doctor who may occasionally do a cholesterol test and might ask them about symptoms. There is a lot of room to miss stuff there. If you have a high score on this test though then it doesn't get missed. And you can take action. I think that is worthwhile for those people.
 
Yes, it can be useful, but not the same thing as a calcium score from the OP.



Yeah I know. But I included it because it seems that he believes that there’s nothing useful between on the one hand getting a Calcium score and on the other getting an invasive angiogram. This seems to fill that gap.
 
Cost is not usually a big deal; the test typically costs in the $100 range. The only real downside is that it's a significant dose of radiation. And it's only recommended for people who are already at high risk for a heart attack.


Yes, these two reasons are why I have not had this test done yet. I'm in the low risk category for a heart attack, as determined by several other blood tests that I have done each year. And since I appear to be at low risk, I don't want/need the extra dose of radiation. I may reconsider some day, but for now, I don't want it done.
 
I know this thread is mostly about the value of the Cardiac Calcium Test, but I think it's worth mentioning that diet can be a huge factor in heart health as you get older. I've done a lot of reading on the subject, and I'm convinced that, if you can avoid (or at least minimize) your consumption of a couple things, you can reduce your risk of heart disease by quite a bit. Those two things are: 1)industrial seed oils; and 2) sugar(in all its forms) and refined grain products. The seed oils may be the absolute worst thing you can consume, and they are in all kinds of processed foods these days, even if you don't use them directly in your cooking. Americans are consuming WAY more of these man-made, chemically-extracted seed oils today than our parents did, and they were basically unheard of before 1900. I won't touch them anymore, after learning how toxic they are. Here is some information on the link between seed oils and heart disease (and other chronic diseases): https://thenutritionwatchdog.com/th...se-cancer-heart-disease-obesity-and-diabetes/
 
Those two things are: 1)industrial seed oils; and 2) sugar(in all its forms) and refined grain products. The seed oils may be the absolute worst thing you can consume, and they are in all kinds of processed foods these days, even if you don't use them directly in your cooking. /[/URL]

I agree 100% -- It seems that no matter the person selling their diet or book (Carnivore, Vegan etc) they ALL agree on that.... CUT OUT SUGAR and processed foods in general, seed oils being some of the most processed (as that is the way they get to the oil -- lots of processing) This is my "low hanging fruit" that I am going after as I already exercise 5+ days a week, am not overweight and do not smoke.
 
I thought my calcium results were good (74) but it was enough for the doctor to put me on a statin even though blood test results were in the normal range.
 
I thought my calcium results were good (74) but it was enough for the doctor to put me on a statin even though blood test results were in the normal range.

Walking into the office is enough for most doctors to put you on a statin these days. :facepalm:
 
Add my thanks to the ones you've already gotten. I didn't pay much attention to what my heart was doing till a couple of years ago, other than watching diet and exercise and monitoring cholesterol levels (including the various deltas and ratios among components).

Then I started having shortness of breath on mild exertion, like bicycling uphill. Passed the treadmill stress test with flying colors, calcium score was 1, but the echocardiogram showed backflow in the valves- ejection fraction was 65-70%. Not much they do at this point but monitor it and it was stable over 6 months between tests and the next one is in 12 months. My cardiologist is very positive about my continued exercise- he said, "Live your life but don't overdo it". I'm finally starting to calm down and I have a FitBit so I can look for changes in patterns, which have not occurred so far. I can see from your story that it's important to notice "quantum" changes and not chalk them up to old age.

And it's good to know that the calcium score does not mean my arteries are squeaky-clean.

By the way, my sister the doctor tells me that the LAD artery is known as The Widowmaker.;)


The good thing about this discussion is that people have shared stories from both ends of the scale. I had a very low CCT score and ended up having a big problem. Another person had a CCT over 1,000 and is alive and well. This doesn't mean a CCT is a waste of time. It just means it's not a definitive way to know whether you or I or someone else have a serious problem. If your results show a very low score can you go home and relax? No. If your score is sky high does this mean you should be making arrangements for your funeral? No. Do some people benefit from a CCT in some way? Hopefully yes. I can't imagine a zillion cardiac docs are having their patients pay out of their own pockets to have this test done and it's a total waste of time.

It's probably a good idea to pay attention to how you are doing when you're bike riding and how long it takes you to recover. This is the insight that I failed to take advantage of because I wasn't looking for it. If you're looking for it and you see your recovery time taking longer on a more frequent basis you might want to talk to your cardiac doc.

My experience is that cardiac docs don't tend to tell their patients how bad things could be. They seem to take the more middle ground approach, probably because most people don't want to hear the full range of possibile paths their future could take. For the most part this works out okay but for those who fall at the end of the bell curve they aren't aware of the range of possible outcomes and aren't looking for hints that could make a difference in their survival. I think this is where hearing about other people's experiences is a plus. Real world data is sometimes at the extreme but there's nothing that says your outcome won't be equally extreme.

Calling an obstructed LAD the "Widowmaker" has a nice cheerful ring to it. Since I never got married I guess I didn't qualify. Things worked out for the best!

One benefit of my situation is that I've looked at all the angiogram pictures and can confirm the doctor's conclusions that all the other arteries in my heart are perfectly clear. And since there are stents where the obstructions were located those regions won't cause any problems in the future. Newer stents are very good, much better than earlier stents. Better expansion design, better materials, better fatigue properties. With the addition of cholesterol lowering drugs chances are pretty good that I won't have another problem like this. I'll eventually die of something but obstructed heart arteries are pretty low on the list. (Hopefully.) How many people in my age group can say that and have solid data to back it up?

About a month ago I got a Fitbit Inspire 2 through Silver & Fit, which is a program my Medicare supplement insurance company includes as part of their insurance package. It was free so I figured "Why not?" I ordered one and 3 days later it was in my mailbox. I've been using it to track my heart rate throughout the day, especially on my hiking days. It's pretty neat. One limitation is that Fitbit doesn't give you a way to download the data so you can read it into Excel and look at it in more detail. I dug around and found a website that will do this. It works fine. One of the pluses in this is that you can collect this info over time and see how your heart rate is doing over months and years. If you take the same bike ride over a long period of time and monitor your heart rate every so often it would be easy to overlay them in Excel and see how you are doing. You could compare recovery times and things like that. If you see your recovery time increasing you have solid data to show your cardiac doc.

In the longer term a person could do this over a period of years and see how their cardiovascular system is holding up. Every so often you do the exact same exercise (bike, run, hike, swim, etc) and see how your heart is doing. Performance varies with ambient conditions so keep this in mind. This seems like something worth doing.

There are a lot of fitness trackers on the market. I don't take advantage of the social media support that Fitbit has but others probably get a lot of value from it. Polar is supposed to make really good heart rate trackers and they're not stupidly expensive. Apple watches are very good too. There's a lot of info on YouTube about this. Almost anyone can monitor their heart rate 24/7 if they want to.

I looked into the CT angiogram situation and found some good info about it. It looks like it's pretty good. Medicare has guidelines for the type of CT machine settings needed to get usable results so they are certainly aware of it. I imagine interpreting the results is where the uncertainty comes into play. These things aren't always obvious. I know an MD who interprets x-ray images (a radiologist?) and she said a lot of what she does involves intuition and experience to make the call on whether a problem is there or not. There was an earlier posting to a company that has software that does CT angiogram interpretation so this could help with things and get the cost down too. Unfortunately Medicare won't pay for a CT angiogram if you don't have any symptoms to justify it. I imagine a family history of heart attacks and premature deaths might be enough justification for your cardiac doc to authorize it, but that's just a guess. The benefit of a conventional angiogram is that it's pretty obvious if you have obstructed arteries or not. Unfortunately, any time they start poking around inside your heart with a long hollow wire there's a chance something bad could happen.

This is not easy stuff for most of us to wrap our brains around because it's still part art and part science. We'd like a clear and unambiguous answer of whether we have plaque in our arteries or not. In a lot of cases this is difficult to know until a problem arises and sometimes there isn't a happy end to the story. Three months after I had my cardiac episode on the hiking trail a woman was hiking the same trail with a friend and had cardiac arrest and died right then and there. She was 43 years old. Her friend came back a few weeks later and put some roses on the location where she died. I happened to see her and talked with her a while and heard more about what happened. The rose petals are long gone but the stems are still there. I pass them every time I hike that trail. It's a good reminder that bad things can happen when we least expect it.

Sometimes we're lucky, sometimes we're not.
 
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It's probably a good idea to pay attention to how you are doing when you're bike riding and how long it takes you to recover. This is the insight that I failed to take advantage of because I wasn't looking for it. If you're looking for it and you see your recovery time taking longer on a more frequent basis you might want to talk to your cardiac doc.

This is pretty much what I'm doing- I have a FitBit Luxe and as long as I seem to be doing the same Zone minutes, heart rate, etc. for the same workout and my heart rates stay consistent, I'm somewhat reassured. My resting heart rate is consistently under 60 and I keep an eye on that, too.


Three months after I had my cardiac episode on the hiking trail a woman was hiking the same trail with a friend and had cardiac arrest and died right then and there. She was 43 years old.

I read a long time ago that your heart develops "collateral circulation" routes as you age so you may survive a heart attack or LAD blockage if you're older. My late husband (died from other causes) had stents put in when he was 65 and they said the collateral circulation was what saved him. My Uncle, OTOH, a marathon runner, died of a heart attack at 42. That was 1978; I'm sure they would have caught his issues earlier with the tools we have now.
 

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