College Spending Money

[ncbill]

Gifted the annual limit each year.

Kids had full tuition scholarships, plus a monthly stipend & allowance for books from Uncle Sam (all tax-free)...so they could choose their living arrangements after being required to live on campus their freshman year.

 

[SnowballCamper]

Some degrees are worth more than others. Engineering, computer science, nursing and such others in demand.

This is what I talk to DD about. The choice of academic major is one of the biggest decisions in life (for those that go to college), more important than which university to attend, and almost as important as who to marry...if you marry.

 

[ScoopKona]

This is what I talk to DD about. The choice of academic major is one of the biggest decisions in life (for those that go to college), more important than which university to attend, and almost as important as who to marry...if you marry.

I could not possibly disagree more.

And furthermore, nothing frustrates me more than reading about "worthless" majors. This attitude is making the US a poorer place -- every definition of "poor."

For instance, most people don't realize that one of top majors for self-made billionaires is history. People with philosophy degrees tend to advance in their non-philosophy careers quickly. They also tend to become outstanding attorneys.

And let's face it -- our society needs Latin scholars, ballet teachers and artists just as much as we need programmers and physicians.

While the rest of the developed world does everything possible to remove barriers to a university education, the US is doing everything it can to block students from attending. We are going to end up surrendering our national education advantage. And it will not end well for us.

The United States leads the world in lots of categories -- percentage of citizens incarcerated, police killings of citizens, people who believe in angels, people who manage to kill themselves with their own lawn mower.

But we also lead the world in Nobel Laureates, Turing Award winners and Fields Medalists. That matters. And we're surrendering this advantage just to appeal to the people who manage to kill themselves with their own lawn mower.

If putting bright students though university, free, raised my taxes by 100%, I'd gladly write that check. I can't stand living in a society in a tail spin.

 

[RobbieB]

I always wondered about attorneys.

Yellow pages are a thing of the past I know. But one day I noticed that the attorney section seemed quite thick. So I looked at the dentist section and indeed it was much thinner.

Now I was young at the time (yellow pages ya know) but since I had been seeing a dentist every 6 months (cleaning and checkups, some fillings and wisdom extractions) and I had not yet had one attorney visit why their were so many more lawyers in the book vs dentists.

I still don't get it.

 

[ScoopKona]

I still don't get it.

My dentist doesn't charge $500 per hour.

 

[RobbieB]

I still haven't had any need for a lawyer, but I continue to see my dentist.

 

[ScoopKona]

I still haven't had any need for a lawyer, but I continue to see my dentist.

I sincerely hope you never need one.

I've needed one. And it cost me five figures over a few years to save six figures.

Worth it. But still painful. There are professional litigants in this country. And they prey on the wealthy. Pray one never takes an interest in you.

 

[Letj]

I could not possibly disagree more.

And furthermore, nothing frustrates me more than reading about "worthless" majors. This attitude is making the US a poorer place -- every definition of "poor."

For instance, most people don't realize that one of top majors for self-made billionaires is history. People with philosophy degrees tend to advance in their non-philosophy careers quickly. They also tend to become outstanding attorneys.

And let's face it -- our society needs Latin scholars, ballet teachers and artists just as much as we need programmers and physicians.

While the rest of the developed world does everything possible to remove barriers to a university education, the US is doing everything it can to block students from attending. We are going to end up surrendering our national education advantage. And it will not end well for us.

The United States leads the world in lots of categories -- percentage of citizens incarcerated, police killings of citizens, people who believe in angels, people who manage to kill themselves with their own lawn mower.

But we also lead the world in Nobel Laureates, Turing Award winners and Fields Medalists. That matters. And we're surrendering this advantage just to appeal to the people who manage to kill themselves with their own lawn mower.

If putting bright students though university, free, raised my taxes by 100%, I'd gladly write that check. I can't stand living in a society in a tail spin.

I could have written this. Excellent post. Imagine a world where everyone had a “lucrative” degree. God forbid.

 

[OldShooter]

... Imagine a world where everyone had a “lucrative” degree. God forbid.

Imagine a world where a large number of students borrow large amounts of money, not realizing that their investment will probably not pay off economically.

I think the answer is to give the investment payoff information to students, something IIRC that the higher education establishment is fighting, and let the students decide.

FWIW, I consider my MSEE and Computer Science PhD coursework to be "trade school" training. This class of education includes medicine, dentistry, accounting, and maybe business. We trade school graduates emerge with an immediate ability to do useful work. English Lit? Women's Studies? Not so much.

 

[ScoopKona]

Imagine a world where a large number of students borrow large amounts of money, not realizing that their investment will probably not pay off economically.

I think the answer is to give the investment payoff information to students, something IIRC that the higher education establishment is fighting, and let the students decide.

FWIW, I consider my MSEE and Computer Science PhD coursework to be "trade school" training. This class of education includes medicine, dentistry, accounting, and maybe business. We trade school graduates emerge with an immediate ability to do useful work. English Lit? Women's Studies? Not so much.

Does this mean that only the children of wealthy families should major in whatever it is they want to do?

 

[OldShooter]

Does this mean that only the children of wealthy families should major in whatever it is they want to do?

Huh? Not sure where you come up with that.

What it does mean is that the children and their parents should be given all the information necessary to make an informed decision.

I suppose that it is easier for wealthy families to choose degrees that are not cost-effective but to the extent that happens it is a side-effect and not the major objective. Wealthy families have lots more options than the less wealthy do. Gap years, for example. Life is not fair.

 

[ScoopKona]

What it does mean is that the children and their parents should be given all the information necessary to make an informed decision.

This assumes that a university education is for job training only.

None of this mattered back when I attended -- a plucky, intelligent student could work his or her way through. Graduating debt free, with the degree of choice was once the rule, not the exception.

And like the "FBI Agent who majored in animal husbandry" example given above, every degree has worth. Because we need ranchers (and people who can investigate cattle rustling) just as much as we need programmers.

This current "monetize everything" attitude is making us poorer. And now I'm hearing people demand that hobbies need to be monetized as well -- which will come as a surprise to the mediocre golfers and artists just happen to like golf and creating art.

I absolutely want to live in a society which values English literature as much as the ability to write code in Python. We need both.

 

[OldShooter]

This assumes that a university education is for job training only. ...

Where did I say that?

... I absolutely want to live in a society which values English literature as much as the ability to write code in Python. ...

Well, sorry. If "value" means money then the English Lit degree objectively has less value. If "value" is something more abstract, then what is it and how do you measure it? You have to measure it or you can't know whether English Lit has more or less of it than Python programming. (Sorry, my undergrad philosophy courses are showing here. )

 

[Letj]

Imagine a world where a large number of students borrow large amounts of money, not realizing that their investment will probably not pay off economically.

I think the answer is to give the investment payoff information to students, something IIRC that the higher education establishment is fighting, and let the students decide.

FWIW, I consider my MSEE and Computer Science PhD coursework to be "trade school" training. This class of education includes medicine, dentistry, accounting, and maybe business. We trade school graduates emerge with an immediate ability to do useful work. English Lit? Women's Studies? Not so much.

You may want to take another look at ScoopKona’s post. Large amount of debt is not the norm elsewhere. The way education is funded in the US is a disgrace and corrupt.

 

[OldShooter]

You may want to take another look at ScoopKona’s post. Large amount of debt is not the norm elsewhere. The way education is funded in the US is a disgrace and corrupt.

Well, that's a different discussion. The higher education establishment has been gorging itself on student loan money for decades. Every time more is put into the trough, they raise prices to absorb it. Many educational paths would be more cost-effective if prices had not ballooned. So I agree with you on that topic. But the kids have to deal with what is, not what should be.

 

[ScoopKona]

But the kids have to deal with what is, not what should be.

100% disagree.

"What is" is the kid who wants to study theater, and has a passion for it. Not everyone has a passion for STEM. Those who do, great.

But we can't pigeonhole everyone. Some people aren't going to do well in the college environment. They should have other avenues. Some people aren't going to do well in the military. They should have other avenues. Some people aren't going to do well in trade schools. They should have other avenues.

And while other countries work like crazy to open avenues. We're doing our level best to close one (and only one). What's clear to me is that the average American does not value education. It's more fair to say that the average American displays contempt for education.

And that's a real shame. Because a drywall installer isn't going to solve the problem of greenhouse gas emissions. Don't get me wrong -- we need drywall installers. But we also need environmental physicists.

 

[braumeister]

The degree of thread drift is kind of amazing here.

 

[SecondCor521]

The degree of thread drift is kind of amazing here.

It used to be a hallmark of the site many years ago.

 

[38Chevy454]

Maybe I am too much of the logical engineer. Which worked great for me to reach FIRE.

To me college is a tradeoff of time and money for the result of higher paying job prospects. That is reality in my world.

Its fine if a person wants to get a degree in liberal arts. Not my problem that those positions are typically less paying. That's a choice the liberal arts makes. Supply and demand is reality.

I agree that as the money train for college rolls in with easy money, it has resulted in college costs outpacing inflation by a lot. That is also reality in my world.

So in the end, reality says liberal arts may be emotionally fulfilling for some, but not wallet filling. That's reality.

 

[RobbieB]

I've not seen much "contempt for education" in my life.

 

[ScoopKona]

So in the end, reality says liberal arts may be emotionally fulfilling for some, but not wallet filling. That's reality.

The wealthiest people I know started with liberal arts degrees.

Naturally, the average software engineer is going to clean the clock of the average Latin scholar. But a liberal arts degree is no guarantee of lower salaries. For instance, it has been my experience that those who hold philosophy degrees punch far higher than their weight, particularly in the legal and business world.


I won't even go as far as to say that one profession is worth more than another. Sure, the software engineer makes more. But if I was visiting Rome, I'd rather have the company of the Latin scholar.


Some of these liberal arts graduates parlay their degree into an interesting, high-paying career -- there is far less competition than among software engineers.

 

[RobbieB]

Nobody wants the company of a software engineer. Like the Spanish Inquisition.

Hehe, I kid.

I got hired on my first job (sales) with an electrical engineering degree. I think it was because when the interviewer asked what my favorite classes were I answered "humanities"

He said that's kind of odd for an engineer why?

I told him the math and science teaches how to solve problems, but humanities teaches you how to live.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

If we had Bill Gates money, I'd encourage our kids to follow their passions regardless of school cost or career salary. But we're don't have Bill Gates money, so we encouraged our kids to go to good value schools into fields they enjoy and careers that would allow them to be financially self sufficient.


The new headlines these days are more full of stressed people who don't make enough to pay off their student loans than there are stories of software engineers who wished they had taken more Greek philosophy classes. With all the online classes these days, people can take all the personal enrichment classes they want in almost any subject for free. But majoring in Greek philosophy isn't an easy way to pay the rent.

 

[RobbieB]

Blasphemy!

All the inner workings of mankind are reveled in The Iliad and The Odyssey -

 

[ScoopKona]

If we had Bill Gates money, I'd encourage our kids to follow their passions regardless of school cost or career salary.

I would encourage this anyway.

I know what I'm good at. I know what I suck at. I know what I can do for 8-14 hours a day. And I know what I won't do for 8-14 hours a day.

There are many, many careers where I don't care what the salary is -- I don't want to do that five days a week.

There are other careers where as long as I had a roof over my head and didn't starve, I'd be OK with that.

The good thing about university is that it doesn't matter where the student starts -- community college English 101 is (usually) just as good as Ivy League English 101. Bootstrapping university is STILL possible, even though working-through is not.