Diversification through rental property?

I'm curious as to how many properties he actually owns. I suspect the number is closer to zero than to one.

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I don't own many only 4 rental properties with 6 units in total. As I look at my FIRE scenario, with all properties. (I've been crunching the numbers lately) They pull $86,100 a year in rents with insurance of $3977 & Taxes of $15,845. So my net after debt will be $66,278 or a bit over $5500 a month.! :dance: I figure I have between $120K and $160K initial investment dollars. (It's not like I can log into fidelity and process my numbers)

My current mortgage obligation is roughly $36,720 and include two of the properties which escrow taxes and insurance. Through the miracle of depreciation, none has ever shown a profit.:D:cool:

My accountant just told me today due to carryover losses once again I would get a refund this year. Couldn't use the losses in previous years, so they carried over.
 
While in college, a lot of kids, yes, kids, are rebellious, anti-social, non-conforming and have competitions to see who can be the piggiest, grossest, reeking tenants ever. While the numbers can be staggering in your favor, your main job is not landlording, it damage control. I witnessed this market when my son was in college, and I gave the landlord all kinds of hell when showing his 6 unit building. He promptly showed me another unit in the building where he was to do some maintenance work after our showing. Never in my life......:facepalm:

Not my cup of tea, or unit of swill.....:nonono:

My daughter is looking at renting a house off of campus next year in Philly. The guy bought it for a bit over $100K in 1999. He is charging nearly $4K per semester per room or close to $80K per year. It makes me want to puke:mad:
 
My daughter is looking at renting a house off of campus next year in Philly. The guy bought it for a bit over $100K in 1999. He is charging nearly $4K per semester per room or close to $80K per year. It makes me want to puke:mad:

We have that guy beat - have two buildings with nine total college units we paid $50k for - last year they had rents received of $57,105.47. Expenses were $18,169.13. Not trying to make you puke - all we had to do was buy them 4/1/1987 and do just a wee bit of fix up and cleaning now and then... They long ago were all paid for. Rentals are nothing but gravy.
 
It should make you want to buy a property in Philly :)

It has crossed my mind, but it violates a few of my rules:
1) Don't buy property that are far from home, which increases the PIA quotient.
2) Don't buy properties that I wouldn't be willing to move my family into.
3) Don't buy rentals where you aren't comfortable dealing with the tenants.

I had rented to college kids 1 time. The group talker was a slick kid. he sublet the property unbeknownst to me. I found out through a waiter down the street he had people living in the closets.:facepalm:

I said never again to "college kids", though I legally can't deny them the unit if they meet my requirements.

The beauty of this rental guy in Philly. I have to sign as being responsible for the rent.:nonono:
 
What do you folks think about college town rentals? I've considered buying a rental in a town where my son attends school, about 2 hours from me. Son could take care of minor management issues. Seems that student rentals would have problems with less-responsible renters and yearly turnover. But, I suppose someone is making money at it?

We own several multifamily properties in a town dominated by a large public university. Over the years, they have done well (generally positive cash flow, deferred taxes due to depreciation, and capital gains due to appreciation). You have higher turnover with college rentals, but that makes it a easier to raise rents with new tenants.

College towns can have a yearly cycle for rents. In our case, if we have a unit that is not occupied at the beginning of the academic year, it will either be empty for the academic year or will require significant discount of the rent to get it rented "off-cycle".

We have had a few issues with damage to the units but we require a parental guarantee for tenants without a job that has adequate income to pay the rent. The parental guarantee has been a help a few times with expenses related to tenant-caused damage, but not always. We had one tenant that tore the $^!* out of one of our units. Turned out mommy and daddy were both lawyers. When our attorney sent a demand letter to this tenant's parents, they cheerfully called and said to so ahead and try to collect as they knew they were legally obligated to pay. However, they further stated that they would do whatever legal maneuvers were required to ensure that would it would cost us more in legal fees than it was worth. What a lovely family!
 
In that case, I might spend a little money to file and go for a judgement. They would likely pay before that happened, but the court case and their behavior would be public record.

I don't think lawyers are a protected class. I know one landlord that won't rent to attorneys. At least that's what he says...
 
In that case, I might spend a little money to file and go for a judgement. They would likely pay before that happened, but the court case and their behavior would be public record.

I don't think lawyers are a protected class. I know one landlord that won't rent to attorneys. At least that's what he says...

We have a property management company handle the day to day stuff. Part of their service is subscribing to an online database called Tenant Tracker that allows landlords to provide a sort of "credit report" on tenants as well as report unpaid debts of deadbeat tenants to the true credit reporting agencies.
 
My father did a similar thing back in the 90's when he sold a triplex that we had initially lived in, and owned in a college town for many years in California for $1.2M (purchased for $50K!). He took about $800K from the sale and bought four single-family homes in Raleigh North Carolina. (FWIW - for the college-town renters, rent to professors and grad students. They make much better, long-term tenants.)

My Dad initially did it the wrong way for the right reasons. He had been his own landlord for awhile and wanted to find a market where property values and the economy was stable, hence Raleigh. The problem was he didn't have property management, and so he talked his realtor into handling his rentals for him - very bad idea. After about six months, that relationship fell apart and he ended up finding and hiring a small, family-owned property management/relocation company that knew their stuff. This firm handled all management duties for him and did a terrific job for a reasonable price. He and Mom lived on that income in retirement and even through the most difficult economic periods, they never had a downturn in rent and their property values were incredibly stable. From a return standpoint, I would estimate they earned about 6% per year on their investment, not a great return for the time, but it was reliable and the equity was preserved to pass along, which is what they wanted.

Fast forward to 2010, when the market, and property values, took a dive my wife and I decided it would be a good idea to raid our stocks and buy more property in NC. Since I was already 'managing' and would be receiving my parents' properties it seemed like a good idea to add to the existing portfolio. Our timing couldn't have been more lucky. Unlike my father's initial foray, we had experienced management in place, the inventory was plentiful and cheap, and the homes we bought were even better financial investments overall than the ones my dad had purchased years earlier. We were even able to negotiate our fees down since the management company had seven properties in our account. For us, since we financed our properties, our return has been much higher on invested capital - we invested about $180K and the homes have appreciated $250K+ in 5 years plus they spun off $1,000 excess cash per month and we have missed a total of 3 months rent in 5 years due to turnover. I couldn't be happier with the whole package. We recently refinanced and lowered our interest rates on all the properties and took some cash out for a kitchen remodel (ours).

For comparison to earlier posters, we were able to purchase our homes for about ten times annual rent - a little less on one, a little more on two - and that seems to be a good factor for us that I have used to evaluate opportunities quickly. (I've read that 10-12X is good) I will be doing a 1031 this year, and I don't think the new property will even come close to those numbers, but since I'm selling too... FWIW - I like owning rental properties that are nice, and attractive to working couples and families. Students, Section 8, low-income rentals are not my thing. My one weird hangup is that I have to have a two-car garage. (It makes life so much easier!)

Having said all that, if we didn't have the benefit of market timing, our returns would be much different. Every owner's situation is unique and there are a lot of moving pieces to help make it successful - timing, market selection, property management, level of investment, type of investment etc. It seems to be much easier to use rentals as a place to store large sums of cash vs. trying to do it on the slow and cheap, but it can be done; the earlier you start, the better. It is interesting how property values tend to rise much faster than rents, and that makes markets like SoCal very difficult for SFRs. Sadly, I could never make it work where I live.

If I were starting over from zero, my first task would be to find the best market from a risk/return perspective, and the best management in that market to help me find and fill my properties. I've heard Milwaukee is good for rentals right now and down South there are other good markets. Keep an open (and analytical) mind.
 
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In that case, I might spend a little money to file and go for a judgement. They would likely pay before that happened, but the court case and their behavior would be public record.

I don't think lawyers are a protected class. I know one landlord that won't rent to attorneys. At least that's what he says...

One of the first books I read on landlording advised never rent to a lawyer or relative of one.

The contractor I use to lay carpet or vinyl when I don't have the time, advised me to never rent to the ER doctors close to the hospital. He said some are bigger pigs than college students.

I did rent to 3 college girls once. My wife and I jointly approve/disapprove of our tenants based on a 8 point checklist we have developed over the years. Two of the girls were former high school students of my wife, so they had a good reference. They rented for 4 years, and were the prettiest young things on the planet. No damage, great tenants, paid on time and very easy on the eyes.
 
My wife and I jointly approve/disapprove of our tenants based on a 8 point checklist we have developed over the years.

I did rent to 3 college girls once. ...[they] were the prettiest young things on the planet ... very easy on the eyes.

How many points was that worth on your checklist? :)
 
How many points was that worth on your checklist? :)

Just 1.

I take an application from anyone who wants one. General appearance is one point; as you only have one chance to make an impression. If someone is a slob, or unkept in their appearance, how do you think they'll treat my property.

Point #2, I always walk the applicant(s) back to their vehicle so I can get a another good look at how they take care of their own personal property. Messy car, beer bottles, trash, bald tires etc.

Now I will had this declaimer; I was really hoping a lot that they would pass the checklist. After all I was still in my 40's and wasn't dead yet!! When DW said she knew the girls and their family, I was trying really hard to suppress the high fives, fist pumps and head bumps.:dance::dance::dance:

At the time, my daughter was 22, and her college friends were around, so it wasn't the first time I saw coeds.
 
I occasionally come to this site as it seems to have what I consider excellent member/comments, lots "way over my head". I actually had to reset to get back in because I wanted to comment.

I am simply an hourly factory(machinist). Have some college and consider myself avg or slightly below in terms of knowledge.

I'm 52 with a frozen pension/29yrs of time and yes retiring next year the day I get 30yrs and I am eligible to draw my pension.:dance:

The reason I am able to retire is very simple. RENTAL PROPERTIES. We live in the Midwest in a small town/small market. Bought my first at 26 and we have a couple dozen, mostly paid for(divorce 5yrs ago). We can't buy for appreciation and in fact in 08/09 RE came back down to a point that we can buy properties for the same prices we paid 25yrs ago but the cool thing is the rents didn't drop so they are 3x what they were 25yrs so in the past 3-4yrs we have bought about 15 more units.

It's been very good to us but make no mistake it's not free as many have indicated. It's a 2nd job. We have only recently hired much out. I doubt I could personally ever buy a property out of state and have someone manage it, it's a trust issue for me.

I personally see the stock market and RE very similar meaning "you get out of it what you put into it" meaning you have to work at anything to be successful(not that I consider myself that way). I never took the time to educate myself in regards to Stocks and only take the 6% company match.

A friend at work bought his first property and after re-hab said " now all I have to do is "Sit Back....and watch the checks roll in". I see the same in the Stock Market...I put my money in and now just wait to be rich. Now the real work begins.
 
I too live in the SF Bay Area and I have three rental condo's in Roseville (about 125 miles away). I bought them in the 2011/2012 time frame and the initial ROI was about 8.5% after all expenses including taxes. Now, the ROI is around 10% of the initial value. In addition, they have appreciated by 125%.

Rental properties have been very very good to me but I had few parameters when I purchased them. First, a good location with a strong rental market. Second, I was looking for newer condo's (less than 5 years old) since I was not local and needed properties with very low maintenance (no property management company). My turnover rate has been exceptionally low and I have had ZERO vacancy days since purchase. Total time spent per year managing the properties is around 8 hours.
 
I have rented only to young college/recent grad women so far. They have all been very respectful of the place and keep it cleaner than my own home. I'm not opposed to renting to others but since I rent rooms individually the remaining two always want to pick another peer with a similar lifestyle and feel safer with another young woman. I always include them in the decisions as happy renters make a happy landlord.
 
I too live in the SF Bay Area and I have three rental condo's in Roseville (about 125 miles away). I bought them in the 2011/2012 time frame and the initial ROI was about 8.5% after all expenses including taxes. Now, the ROI is around 10% of the initial value. In addition, they have appreciated by 125%.

Rental properties have been very very good to me but I had few parameters when I purchased them. First, a good location with a strong rental market. Second, I was looking for newer condo's (less than 5 years old) since I was not local and needed properties with very low maintenance (no property management company). My turnover rate has been exceptionally low and I have had ZERO vacancy days since purchase. Total time spent per year managing the properties is around 8 hours.

Follow the same thought process. Have both, house and townhouse rentals.
Advantage of Condo. You do not have to worry about the upkeep of the outside grounds. Buildings and grounds always look nice. Again, location
is imperative! HOA fees cane be expensive, but IMO, worth the trade off in
less hands on maintenance. Roseville area is nice.:greetings10:
 
....We have had a few issues with damage to the units but we require a parental guarantee for tenants without a job that has adequate income to pay the rent. The parental guarantee has been a help a few times with expenses related to tenant-caused damage, but not always. We had one tenant that tore the $^!* out of one of our units. Turned out mommy and daddy were both lawyers. When our attorney sent a demand letter to this tenant's parents, they cheerfully called and said to so ahead and try to collect as they knew they were legally obligated to pay. However, they further stated that they would do whatever legal maneuvers were required to ensure that would it would cost us more in legal fees than it was worth. What a lovely family!

OK, fine, we'll go after your kid, the primary obligor instead.... we may not collect but we'll tie him up in court and ruin his credit rating. Now you want to send me a check?
 
While a bit too risky for me, I'm wondering about those ads I see on TV and radio about investing in real estate through some sort of investment company. I looked it up and essentially (IIRC) you send them money and they buy properties using your cash along with that from others. Then they pay out a dividend of sorts.

Anyone look more deeply into these?
 
My general thoughts are that any investment that is advertised on TV is going to benefit them much more than it will benefit the [-]suckers[/-] buyers.
That goes double for anything that has a has-been celebrity advertising it.
 
I love rental real estate. Have had no problem with out of town ownership. Plus, it's a tax deductible trip once a year. If you want to learn about this go to biggerpockets.com. There is a tremendous volume of info there about real estate investment of all types. The cash flow cities (pretty much most of the fly over states) are completely different than places like California. If you want cash flow in retirement, rather than appreciation, look there. Can easily meet the 1% rule (monthly rent = 1% of purchase price) but hard to meet 2% without going to lower economic level properties which most people agree has more risks. Bottom line, do your homework as there are a lot of people out there making great money (and yes some losing their butts too). Oh ya, and tax advantages so talk to your tax adviser.
 
When considering out of town ownership using property management companies near the property (turn-key) you must do due diligence on the properties AND the company. Going in, you'll know things like purchase price, market rent, insurance and property taxes, mortgage costs (if any) and will have to make allowances for expenses (repairs, maintenance) and a vacancy allowance to have a cushion for the inevitable vacant period.

I looked carefully at a company in Memphis, but I could never get my analysis to match theirs. They claimed NOI and cash return numbers which were not supported by my estimates. I asked them to review the properties with me, in detail, to find out if I was doing something different or wrong, but they never agreed to a dive. I went to a seminar they put on near my home and inquired of a couple we met there who were already investors. They were pleased with their property's performance, but couldn't tell me anything about NOI or expenses and were too new to have gone through a vacant period after a lease expiration. It met their needs, but I think we're in a part of the cycle now, where more can go wrong than can go right if you make the wrong decision. Markets are saturating, demographics are changing, home ownership is becoming popular again, prices have recovered...

So I moved on and used other property types as I've described elsewhere on this forum. I love RE for diversity and cash flow, but you must be extra careful right now.
 
I guess I repeated myself there from an earlier post in this same thread. I thought I had posted in a different thread on this topic, but was confused. At least there's more detail in this post than the earlier one, but I'm sorry if I killed the thread.
 
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