Does anyone feel jealousy from friends/family/others?

[Martha]

i don't buy that it is human nature for people to be jealous of each other. i think more often than not what you perceive as jealousy is nothing more than a person's frustration they have with their own life, not that they are unhappy for you that you have your life. that you perceive it as jealousy, even if it is jealousy, might speak less to where they are coming from and more as tribute to your own insecure ego.

feel as free as you want to question my values. but i know that there is a young person who is just as smart as you, maybe even smarter. who lives below his means, maybe even farther below than you ever dared dream. who works harder to just feed himself than you might imagine. who is dedicated beyond breath. only this child was not born in the land of opportunity and often dies at his mother's breast.

how many people put their hand up for the job you got? none of them were better or equally qualified? while it is comforting for some to think we determine our own fate and while character certainly has great value, without luck it might not get you far.

how does another person's jealousy insult you at all--either your luck or your character--when a person's jealousy has nothing to do with either. for you to be insulted you would have to conclude that your success is the cause of their jealousy. so not only are you in complete control of your own destiny, owing nothing to luck (which i know you concede but i'm on a roll here), but apparently you also control their lives, causing within them jealousy. at best they might be projecting their envy on you which you then interpret as jealousy. but just so you shouldn't be insulted, the thing about penis envy is that it really has nothing to do with the other guy's penis. nothing to get insulted about even if the insult was intended.

Once in a while someone on the board talks about how all everyone in this country can be successful and FI and even FIRE if they just had the gumption or got down to business. I try to respond with posts that say success isn't all just buckling down but may be due to a variety of factors, including where you grew up, what your family was like, how smart you are, how much common sense you have, how good is your mental and physical health, how pretty or handsome you are and what kind of genetic makeup you have. How much were you blessed. Lack of gumption, determination, and willpower are complicated things, not a switch to turn on or off.

You write good stuff Lazy. I can see why you were a writer in your previous life.

 

[ladelfina]

i don't buy that it is human nature for people to be jealous of each other. i think more often than not what you perceive as jealousy is nothing more than a person's frustration they have with their own life, not that they are unhappy for you that you have your life. that you perceive it as jealousy, even if it is jealousy, might speak less to where they are coming from and more as tribute to your own insecure ego.

i don't buy that you will help them by hiding the difference. pushing problems under the table rarely solves them. better to flush it out. to be constructively confrontational if need be. but of course, before you can help well others to be comfortable in their lives, you first need be comfortable with your own.

LG4NB.. you seem a bit embattled here, so I just wanted to say how much I liked what you said here. While I don't think perceptions of "jealousy" are a product of my own insecure ego, I agree that jealousy stems from a lot of vague frustrations that don't all have to do with money. I know that I am not "jealous" of someone who has 2x as much as me.. because I don't equate net worth with human worth, but that doesn't hold for a lot of people in the US (the vast number of 'friends not worth having' noted here).

You're fortunate that you know a number of people of means that are as comfortable as you are talking about all this! That's the OP's dilemma, and that of many others who've responded here. Outside of my mom and sis (originator and co-beneficiary of both the LBYM maxim and the bit of cash cushion that results therefrom, respectively)... there's no one outside of here that I can talk to freely about these matters. I've just put a toe into the waters with some basically-LBYM but not-as-well-off friends, trying to make sure they maximize their financial chances, but aside from that..

I know I must have said it elsewhere here, probably in response to the Ayn Rand contingent, but it bears reinforcing.. I agree with you totally that there is a huge "luck" component in our lives of which even the hardest-working middle- or upper-middle-class person is oblivious. There but for the grace of God go I... Amen. -Oops, I see Martha has joined in on this.. Right on.

But how to solve the social problem of TOO MUCH DOUGH? (or rather, being happy with the dough you have)
?? I think people do relate better to "people like themselves", for better or worse.. It's not just jealousy, it's communality. What am I supposed to say when we go to a friend's house for dinner, and an (obviously communist) lady there starts complaining about her job at the Post Office and how we should all sign her petition such that the Post Office won't have to be open or make deliveries on Saturday, because, at 36 hours/week, she already "works too hard" and starts citing Charles Bukowski as evidence of how she is 'de-humanized'? Am I supposed to be "open" and suggest to her a Vanguard Total Stock Market fund?

Conversely, (my, don't we travel in wide circles) at a cocktail party held by our old landlady (some kind of Italian nobility) we were regaled with all the "problems" inherent with the numerous antiques and silver in one guest's multiple houses. Being "the American".. I just said (nicely, jokingly) "sell it!.. Sell it all on E-bay!" You'd think I'd slapped her in the face! THAT conversation ended quickly! NOCD.

Misery loves company. It's not really a factor of rich or poor.. people want to share their problems (real or perceived) with like-minded individuals. LBYM and FIRE individuals being a tiny percent of society as we know it, I think most of us will naturally suffer some social drawbacks.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

The basic abilities are important. Luck plays a very crucial role as well. Where you happened to be born and in what circumstances is also paramount.

That having been said, I made a lot of my own luck and in many cases, made it better.

Two pivotal instances of luck in my life:

- Running into a woman I went to high school with in a mall parking lot, about 5 years after graduation. She was a little dorky in school, and lived across the street from my best friends girlfriend. I always thought she was nice and looked past the dorky stuff and was always nice to her and invited her along with us to do stuff. At the time I ran into her, she was a lingerie model having nicely shed the 'dorky' phase. I dated her off and on for about 10 years until she convinced me to move to california with her, where of course I got the job that secured my ER. Had I treated her like all the other guys did, I doubt any of that happens.

- Shortly after moving to SF, while working at a transition job and looking for something better, I literally walk into a guy on the street that used to work for me. I had helped him get a transfer/promotion some years before even though losing him was a big blow and I had to give his new boss (my peer) a really hard time about it when he tried to renege on the promo. I should have flipped him the paperwork and wished him luck. As it turned out, he knew a company that would love to hire me, and felt he owed me one, so he made it happen. That was the job that helped provide the funds for my ER.

So the morale of the story is that luck and abilities and being born in the US of A are obviously critical factors. However, for every sad luck story of someone who could have been another einstein not making it because they were born in the wrong place, there are 5 stories of someone who had the same abilities and opportunities and blew it because they were lazy, treated people badly, or made bad decisions and then did nothing about the results.

I wonder if a bit of the jealousy is because people look at your life, see that they could have accomplished the same things but they flubbed it? Or look at your life and think it was all just dumb luck?

Besides the above two examples, I can think of a string of at least 20 inflection points where I could have gone one way or the other. When i did the right thing, treated people well, didnt take the easy way out, and worked as hard as I could...things went well.

 

[CCdaCE]

The basic abilities are important. Luck plays a very crucial role as well. Where you happened to be born and in what circumstances is also paramount.

That having been said, I made a lot of my own luck and in many cases, made it better.

<snip>
I wonder if a bit of the jealousy is because people look at your life, see that they could have accomplished the same things but they flubbed it? Or look at your life and think it was all just dumb luck?

Nicholas Taleb and Fooled by Randomness: The Hidden Role of Chance in Life and in the Markets

This book, which has been discussed on this board before, talks about what you discussed quite a bit. Or, somewhat on the flipside... People look at themselves and think it was all "luck" that they didn't do very well. People blame "doing well" on skill, and "doing poorly" on luck. In whatever you consider well and poor. The market, life, etc.

(no, I'm not a book salesman)

-CC

{Edit: added previous book discussion link}

 

[donheff]

Interesting thread. I lean a little to the luck side -- maybe "luck of the draw." Good family, good genes (except maybe the ADD - or maybe that helped), great DW. But, while I worked hard, stuff often seemed to just "fall into my bag" so to speak. Same with DW. She is a lawyer in a lucrative field- but got into it by happenstance, not planning. Again, she works very hard but was born smart in a reasonably prosperous family, in the greatest country in the world.

I volunteer teaching basic computing skills to immigrants twice a week. Some of these people are amazing - smart, hard working, etc. But very few of them will have the opportunities that seemed to fall into my bag. It isn't all due to what we choose.

On the other hand I see a fair number of whiners who blame anything except their own bad choices for their circumstances. So, yeah, it ain't all luck.

Like Audrey, I don't sense much jealous from my friends and acquaintances. I see some remorse for not saving more sooner. But most seem genuinely pleased that I am retired and enjoying myself. And so far no one has reacted negatively. But I don't bandy my net worth about either.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

You write good stuff Lazy. I can see why you were a writer in your previous life.

flatterer. that's all i need, a red face to go along with all this grey hair. i don't already look odd enough? thanx though. as to the previous life, it was more a life wannabe. i had the crappiest career luck. i lost a reporter job with a weekly because the managing editor's niece moved to town and wanted my job. later i'd fall off the corporate ladder to deal with family life. i never did much creative writing--which i love--for a living, mostly only editing & technical writing. if there was ever any talent there it remains untapped.

LG4NB.. you seem a bit embattled here...

thanx ladelfina but didn't think i was battling. i actually like quite a bit of what i've read from shawn. strikes me as some clear thinking there, just thought i might tweak it a little (i'm such a budinski). hope i caused no offense. my comments were not meant personally. his struck me as a frequent reaction to jealousy and related well to the op's comments so i thought i might address how i viewed it.

you are so right on the jealousy issue though. perhaps i did not explain myself well enough. my point is not so much whether or not someone is exhibiting jealousy, but whether or not or how you let their jealousy effect you. it is one thing to take ownership of your own good & admirable efforts. but is it another to take ownership of how someone else feels (especially when you did nothing directly to them to make them feel that way.) if i hit someone and he hurts, i need to take ownership for his pain. but if i am doing a good job with my life and simply by example someone feels badly because they think they have not done such a good job with their life in comparison, then in taking ownership of their pain by reacting to them with insult, i not only push them farther away (by adding insult to injury) but also, as my borders now become less distinct, i lose a sense of myself. so in that neither friend gains.

i was raised and continue to live a middle class melting pot life. i have had good friends of fame & fortune, of poverty & getting by, of the upwardly mobile & those who crashed into drug abuse and death. i have made friends with athiests & monks. i simply don't see the difference. people are just that, people.

i get what you are saying about communality but i think it is just another word for a division of classes and if you keep this up we are going to be hauling you out of europe and back to the melting pot for a refresher. i would relish having that discussion with the postal worker, especially because, depending on my mood, i could take either side of that argument. as to the ebay remark, had i been there with you i would have been rolling on the floor in hysterics. with all due respect, nobility be damned. all you really needed was a come back line for the stone face she gave you in retort. you don't need communality, what you need is a tag team. so invite me to the next stuffy party. we'll have a blast. think caddyshack. "you scratched my anchor!" absolutely one of the funniest lines ever.

i understand the sentiment but i don't necessarily buy the premise that misery loves company. i think more people in a holed ship just make it sink faster & for sure. certainly there are adjustments to be made as lifestyles alter but i don't believe there needs be social drawback, depending, of course, on how much effort someone is willing to put into their own growth and towards that of their friends. i don't believe that you do a favor to either yourself nor to your friends by cutting them out of your lives just because your situation has changed. just because you found cooler or richer kids to play with. when we were kids we used to call such a person a "flat leaver." for me, at least, i've found that it is better to remain a friend.

 

[kaudrey]

Hi Fatboy,

No one has asked the most important question: are you single?

I don't get those kinds of things from family. My parents LBTM and retired early (at 57) 12 years ago. They owned the house I grew up in for about 25 years, always paid cash for cars (I remember them having a Gremlin, a Ford Taurus, and a few station wagons). They kept the cars for 10-12 years, we never had expensive toys and didn't know what "going out to dinner or a movie" was.

My dad's sister retired at 55. She LBHM as well, and although a divorce settlement years ago helped her along, she was always a hard worker and smart with her money.

So now, my sister (and BIL) and myself also LBOM, save a lot, but definitely enjoy life. I pass up a lot of "instant gratification" things so I can travel as well - it is my one relatively expensive hobby.

I don't generally share my financial situation with friends. I own my townhouse and they know it's worth a decent amount now (outside of DC), but I bought it 7 years ago when it was a lot cheaper. They know I travel, and my better friends know I save quite a bit. Some know I plan to retire early.

My problem is that when people find out I work for the government, the question after "which agency?" is "what GS are you?". GS scale wages are posted on the internet, so it's not hard for people to have an idea what I make if I tell them.

 

[MooreBonds]

Hi Fatboy,

No one has asked the most important question: are you single?

There are several 20/30-somethings on the board who are single and lookin'. ::ahem ahem::

 

[free4now]

Here's my California perspective from a recently retired 30something doing lots of personal growth work now that I have the time...

Something I'm realizing only now is that it's important to be supportable. I think in my quest for FIRE, I often took the approach that it was more important to be able to do everything myself than to learn how to count on others to help. In that process I learned to project the image that I was in some ways "untouchable", that nobody could give me advice because I already know exactly how to live my life better than anyone else could ever know.

Now that I have lots of free time and little responsibility, I am realizing that supporting others and letting them support me is actually quite fulfilling when there's no agenda behind it.

So when I get misguided financial advice from friends and family like "loosen up the purse strings little", I try to frame it in my mind as support rather than jealousy. To be open to their intention to help me live a fuller life, even if their actual ideas may be misguided.

I read of a recent scientific study on advice-giving. What the authors concluded was that the benefits of advice accrue mostly to the advice-giver rather than the advice-receiver. The advice-giver gets a feeling of satisfaction in knowing that they have valuable wisdom to share and that they are helping someone out. The advice-receiver is often seeking or getting advice from many sources and most likely won't take or use any actual piece of advice given. What often causes conflict is that the advice-giver takes it as an affront when the advice-receiver fails to implement their advice.

When I get misguided advice, I now try to be respectful and acknowledge that the intention actually was to support me, not to belittle my lifestyle.

Of course if it feels like the intention actually is to belittle me then screw 'em!

As a FIRE'd person in my 30's, not telling anyone about my finances doesn't work very well. If I don't say anything about my finances to people I meet, they assume I'm really bad with money... they either assume I'm wastefully burning through my emergency fund, or that I'm a trust fund baby who has no clue about the value of money.

So what I've been saying recently when I meet new people that I want to know better is "I saved a bunch of money working as an engineer for 13 years, and now I'm living off my investments on a bare bones budget so I can stay free as long as I want".

The "so I can stay free" part seems to resonate with people... at least among the creative types I'm trying to associate with now.

 

[shiny]

When I get misguided advice, I now try to be respectful and acknowledge that the intention actually was to support me, not to belittle my lifestyle.

I try to think this way too - it is hard sometimes, but I do believe it is true.

 

[WM]

I try to think this way too - it is hard sometimes, but I do believe it is true.

I really like this, too, that's a nice way to approach it. The personal growth must be going well!

So what I've been saying recently when I meet new people that I want to know better is "I saved a bunch of money working as an engineer for 13 years, and now I'm living off my investments on a bare bones budget so I can stay free as long as I want".

I like this idea also, or would probably modify it for myself to be something like "I'm trying this other way of living for a while" so that instead of having to say you've retired early (implying you're never going to have to work again), it's something that you're able to do "for now." I did that when I switched to eating vegan, and it was noticeably less "threatening" for other people. Not that we're anywhere near FIRE yet, but actually I guess I kind of do that now. Rather than say we're planning to retire at 42, I say it more like "well, what we're hoping to do is retire when DH is out of the military, but that's an ambitious goal, so we'll see what happens." Which is true anyway.

Not that I normally share that with others, because of the concerns that many people have been sharing.

 

[kaudrey]

There are several 20/30-somethings on the board who are single and lookin'. ::ahem ahem::

Hey, there, fella.

Maybe we need a "Singles" board in addition to the "Young Dreamers" board?

Karen

 

[bssc]

Hey, there, fella.

Maybe we need a "Singles" board in addition to the "Young Dreamers" board?

Karen

Since I have been with my DW since before the internet was big, I have always wondered about websites like Match.com and eHarmony. When I used to work for the American Psycho Association, we used to see compatibility tests. While I know that some things they ask are important, like "Would you prefer to go to a party or stay at home and listen to the 8-track" I would never see questions like "Would you prefer to save for your retirement or spend the money on a Farrah Fawcett haircut?" Have these questions changed to include financial ones?

 

[MooreBonds]

Since I have been with my DW since before the internet was big, I have always wondered about websites like Match.com and eHarmony. When I used to work for the American Psycho Association, we used to see compatibility tests. While I know that some things they ask are important, like "Would you prefer to go to a party or stay at home and listen to the 8-track" I would never see questions like "Would you prefer to save for your retirement or spend the money on a Farrah Fawcett haircut?" Have these questions changed to include financial ones?

I've used eHarmony (and still do), and I believe that they had a few questions on saving/spending in the exhaustive 1-2 hour on-line questionnaire you fill out for your profile. They also have a few preselected questions you can ask the other person that are money-related. (and yes, that's one of my first 5 questions).

Granted, it's not meant to be a tool where you are matched up with 2 people and they are perfect matches....but, whom they do match you up with tend to be far more compatible compared to the random person.

I haven't used the Match.com personality tests (although I do have a match.com profile).

 

[shiny]

The personal growth must be going well!

Lord knows, I try!

I did that when I switched to eating vegan

Good on ya WM!

Its interesting that you brought up the eating factor in the same thread as the money/jealousy/judgemental people thread because I feel that way too. Sometimes when I'm thinking I'm just going about my merry way eating as I wish (vegetarian, not always vegan) I find that others around me feel that I'm judging them and their food choices.

There are just so many layers to human interaction: what is said, what is perceived to be said, what is not said, but felt by others. No wonder so many of us are hermits!

 

[bssc]

Granted, it's not meant to be a tool where you are matched up with 2 people and they are perfect matches....but, whom they do match you up with tend to be far more compatible compared to the random person.

The reason I ask this is that a lot of relationships end up as failures because of money issues (I would want to say money was top on the list but I don't have any articles I can quote) and yet I would never see any questions about money.

I am glad to know that they are at least including a few.

 

[WM]

Sometimes when I'm thinking I'm just going about my merry way eating as I wish (vegetarian, not always vegan) I find that others around me feel that I'm judging them and their food choices.

I've had that same experience, and it was quite surprising when it first happened. It's been a good lesson that people's responses sometimes are more about whatever they're bringing to the situation than what I'm putting out there, regarding food or otherwise.

This is getting off-topic, but the same thing seems to apply for alcohol. DH and I don't drink much, and it really seems to bother some people if they're drinking alcohol and we're not. Haven't entirely figured it out, but it can be quite annoying to be hassled. Thought we were done with the drinking peer pressure in high school or college.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

This is getting off-topic, but the same thing seems to apply for alcohol. DH and I don't drink much, and it really seems to bother some people if they're drinking alcohol and we're not. Haven't entirely figured it out, but it can be quite annoying to be hassled. Thought we were done with the drinking peer pressure in high school or college.

i absolutely noticed this on a continual basis when i stopped drinking (was only a weekend drinker) about 8 years ago or so until i started having a drink or two a few months ago when things were getting really rough watching mom die. and now when i order a drink before dinner everyone is so happy for me as if i've accomplished some deed worthy of praise. it is very odd. now that my life is coming together again i think i will stop drinking again just to freak them out.

 

[WM]

now that my life is coming together again i think i will stop drinking again just to freak them out.

Sounds like fun

I guess it's all part of the "loosen up" mentality that goes for food, money, anything. Like we're being overly disciplined or depriving ourselves in some way that makes them self-conscious.

 

[kaudrey]

This is getting off-topic, but the same thing seems to apply for alcohol. DH and I don't drink much, and it really seems to bother some people if they're drinking alcohol and we're not. Haven't entirely figured it out, but it can be quite annoying to be hassled. Thought we were done with the drinking peer pressure in high school or college.

I have several friends who don't drink at all. They are called "designated drivers"

Karen

 

[Nords]

I have several friends who don't drink at all. They are called "designated drivers"

The really good DD friends are the one who stock their cars with airsickness bags instead of making you roll down a window...

 

[bssc]

I have several friends who don't drink at all. They are called "designated drivers"

Karen

I have a reaction to alcohol and so am the DD. I get free sodas in bars and all that good stuff. Another way to LBYM.

 

[Martha]

Sounds like fun

I guess it's all part of the "loosen up" mentality that goes for food, money, anything. Like we're being overly disciplined or depriving ourselves in some way that makes them self-conscious.

I heard a speaker on public radio yesterday (don't know who he was) who said that "fun" for young people has displaced "interests." Fun takes no work, and is immediate gratification. Interests are developed over time, may take some effort but with effort comes rewards, and interests or affinities can develop into real avocations.

 

[haha]

I heard a speaker on public radio yesterday (don't know who he was) who said that "fun" for young people has displaced "interests." Fun takes no work, and is immediate gratification. Interests are developed over time, may take some effort but with effort comes rewards, and interests or affinities can develop into real avocations.

This does not seem true to me. Watch the young guys in a skate park. They are awesome athletes, and it took years to get those skills. Many young people play an instrument very well, also a demanding path. And how about martial arts? Snowboarding and ski-ing, etc. ?

I'm sure there are lazy kids around, but not most of the ones I see.

Ha

 

[Nords]

I heard a speaker on public radio yesterday (don't know who he was) who said that "fun" for young people has displaced "interests." Fun takes no work, and is immediate gratification.

Thank goodness we weren't like that when we were growing up!

This does not seem true to me. Watch the young guys in a skate park. They are awesome athletes, and it took years to get those skills. Many young people play an instrument very well, also a demanding path. And how about martial arts? Snowboarding and ski-ing, etc. ?
I'm sure there are lazy kids around, but not most of the ones I see.

I think it's a function of how involved the parents are (or can be). If a kid sees a parent come home and collapse on the couch in exhaustion for an evening of asocial TV, that's one example. If a kid sees a parent come home (still exhausted) to have the kid help take care of dinner & chores while the parents keep an eye on school, homework, and their teen's life, then that's a different example.

Of course if a parent comes home to yell at the kid and make them cook dinner, that's a completely different example.

But that's only my biased perspective. We just spent two weeks being hostages to the science project from hell. Now that it's been turned in (in spec and on time) the kid is about to find out about payback hell...