Estate planning

pb4uski

Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
36,430
Location
Sarasota, FL & Vermont
The recent thread on estates and living trusts got me thinking about our own situation.

I went through all of our assets and liabilities (everything except furniture and personal property but including all financial accounts, boats, cars, real estate, etc.)... 34% are joint ownership and 66% are individually owned but with beneficiary designations.. so I'm thinking that we would avoid probate entirely and we are well under the federal estate tax limit. I did this based on my recollection and need to go back to the documents and verify that my recollection is correct.

Also, for some assets that are jointly owned, I'm going to explore putting TOD designations naming our kids in place in the event that DW and I die at the same time. I'd prefer to keep it simple and avoid trusts and probate as much as possible.

The design is that DW gets everything if I die before her and vice versa, but if we die at the same time that our two kids get everything 50/50.

Any advice from those who have already gone through this (either for a spouse, relative or just planning for it)? Just trying to think ahead and make things easier for DW and DD.
 
Last edited:
Since our state taxes estates at a lower amount than the federal exemption we have an estate plan with A/B trusts, QTPs etc...

We also have a durable power of attorney and a health care proxy included in our plan.
 
One thing you may want to consider is naming a Trustee in the case that both you and DW pass and give specific instructions to the Trustee as to how much $$$ to pass on to the children each year as well as instructions as to how you want your money invested until it all gets passed on to the kids. This protects the children from meeting a significant other or financial planner or someone else that tries to take advantage of them. There was also a recent post on FIRE regarding a nephew that blew through 2.5M inheritance in a few years. It would prevent those situations as well.
 
Since our state taxes estates at a lower amount than the federal exemption we have an estate plan with A/B trusts, QTPs etc...

We also have a durable power of attorney and a health care proxy included in our plan.

What you describe is that my folks have (put in place with the federal state tax exemption was much lower).

State estate taxes is a potential issue for us as well... we are currently just under the recently increased state estate tax exemption... but I suspect that in 4 years or so that we will be changing our state of domicile to a state without an estate tax.... but definitely something to keep in mind, especially if our assets increase dramatically (potential inheritance) as that would put us over the limit.
 
One thing you may want to consider is naming a Trustee in the case that both you and DW pass and give specific instructions to the Trustee as to how much $$$ to pass on to the children each year as well as instructions as to how you want your money invested until it all gets passed on to the kids. This protects the children from meeting a significant other or financial planner or someone else that tries to take advantage of them. There was also a recent post on FIRE regarding a nephew that blew through 2.5M inheritance in a few years. It would prevent those situations as well.

Good thought.. less of a concern for us as both our kids are adults and both are pretty good with money.... DD is a CPA and DS is conservative... I doubt that either of them would blow through it. Though I may include in my "If I get hit by a beer truck" letter advice to invest it in their existing Vanguard accounts.

Besides... in order to do what you suggest I would need to set up trusts and I am trying to avoid that complication if I can.
 
A couple of points. You can avoid probate and make things easier by having TOD designations (for brokerage accts as example) and beneficiary designations for others (life insurance, retirement accounts). Even if you do accomplish this, you should still write your Will with the possibility that an asset may "sneak" through to your estate.

You stated, "Also, for some assets that are jointly owned, I'm going to explore putting TOD designations naming our kids in place in the event that DW and I die at the same time. I'd prefer to keep it simple and avoid trusts and probate as much as possible." Although I understand your intent, I'm not sure how various institutions apply that concept to their beneficiary designations. Assets titled joint with a right of survivorship assume the surviving party takes title, and then their estate would determine the disposition if they were to die without another beneficiary designation. I'm not sure you can designate a "contingent" beneficiary with joint ownership in all cases. I would also make sure you consider the "Simultaneous Death Laws" as it applies to beneficiary designations in your state. Also, don't forget the real estate. Real property is sometimes handled a bit differently.

Also, check the default designations in your account documentation to see if they are "per stirpes" rules or something else, such as per capita. This may not be a consideration at this point, but if you have grandchildren, this can make a big difference if one of your children passes before you and you forget to change beneficiary designations. This is often times one of the biggest problems with relying on static beneficiary designations. People get old and forget to make appropriate changes when family circumstances change.

Lastly, make sure that you have your basis covered in the event of incapacity. Ensure that you have carefully considered the powers you give your Power of Attorney. For those assets that you own individually, if you don't have a POA then you'll end up in a guardianship court - the last place you'll want to be!

The use of the Trusts and Wills help to cover the multiple variances that can occur during your lifetime without having to make adjustments to each asset you own during your lifetime with changing life events.
 
Since our state taxes estates at a lower amount than the federal exemption we have an estate plan with A/B trusts, QTPs etc...

We also have a durable power of attorney and a health care proxy included in our plan.

we re-did things a few years ago . being in ny , we have a tax cliff where if you went over the state limit by 10% you lost the complete exclusion and did not pay on the overage but on dollar one .

ny is headed up to the federal level but in the mean time we were over the limit so trusts were needed .

they don't use a-b trusts anymore here . they use disclaimer trusts instead .

the trusts don't exist at all while both are alive . the surviving spouse then has 9 months after the death of the other to throw a switch and activate the trusts splitting the estate in two . if they are not needed they just stay transparent .
 
What you describe is that my folks have (put in place with the federal state tax exemption was much lower).

State estate taxes is a potential issue for us as well... we are currently just under the recently increased state estate tax exemption... but I suspect that in 4 years or so that we will be changing our state of domicile to a state without an estate tax.... but definitely something to keep in mind, especially if our assets increase dramatically (potential inheritance) as that would put us over the limit.

what state are you in?
 
One thing that is very helpful in addition to all of the money stuff is what to do about *you*.

What are your health care wishes if you can't make your own decisions? Who makes them for you?

What do you want done with your body after you die? Organ donation? Cremation? Burial? Cheap casket / cardboard box / fanciest pine?

Do you want an obituary? If so, write it out.

Do you want a funeral, celebration of life, graveside service? Do you have a funeral home you lke?

Where do you want to be buried or scattered? Do you already own a plot? What do you want on your grave marker?

Having all of the above figured out ahead of time makes it *much* easier on your survivors.
 
In the state I live, you can put a TOD (transfer on death) on the title for real estate, thereby, getting past probate. It cost $30 here. I heard that this can also be done for vehicles in some states.

Someone mentioned stirpes ... An estate of a decedent is distributed per stirpes if each branch of the family is to receive an equal share of an estate. When the heir in the first generation of a branch predeceased the decedent, the share that would have been given to the heir would be distributed among the heir's issue in equal shares.
 
I recently read Plan Your Estate (13th Ed.) cover-to-cover in preparation for my first-ever serious attempt at estate planning to happen this summer. Very interesting. I haven't (yet) experimented with any of the companion software.
 
I think a lot can be accomplished with just a will, unless the estate is extremely large, the beneficiaries would not be good stewards of the inheritance, or you want to protect assets from the outside world or even a beneficiaries spouse (if there are any worries there).
 
TOD stands for transfer on death. It does nothing for the other "D" of disability (or incapacity). So if you don't get a trust make sure your financial institutions accept outside POAs. Most do not. If they don't then you need to do their specific POA with each financial institution. A trust is much easier.
 
I think a lot can be accomplished with just a will, unless the estate is extremely large, the beneficiaries would not be good stewards of the inheritance, or you want to protect assets from the outside world or even a beneficiaries spouse (if there are any worries there).

I think pb4uski in the OP used an important method that is important in addition to the will. That is beneficiary designations. Everything in the will goes through probate and will be public. After my father passed, my mom was hit up by many people wanting to sell her services or stuff she did not need. She was not prepared for this and ran thru the money quickly getting very bad deals. There are people who just glean the asset and contact info from the probate courts and and use it as a potential customer list for high pressure sales. Note you don't need a large estate to interest these guys.

Wills and beneficiary designations also don't help when someone is declining, but has not passed. POA's and trusts can be very helpful for these issues in estate planning. Maybe I extend the definition of estate planning to before death a bit in this case. But I think protecting the estate before death is part of it.

But I agree many don't need full blown trusts.
 
my feeling is there is no such thing as a simple will in most states.

i firmly believe when it comes to this stuff with no do overs allowed do not use internet canned documents , see a specialist.

i have dealt with one defective will and 1 defective trust already in my lifetime.

much of what protects your wishes is not even in the documents. it is protocol and is the questions asked at the signing in front of witnesses.

state laws change on the fly . we had a co-worker hit a snag because the internet form used was not the new statutory form required as mentioned below.

we hit a snag on the refinance of a house we inherited through a simple will.

it read i leave my house and possessions to my child beth.

the title company stopped the refinance since a word was missing. that word was ONLY " as in only child.

well i had to pay all the attorneys for the day and lost my rate while we got affidavits there were no other children.

we had a court rule a trust defective as well as it lacked a sentence relating to predeceasing the parents.


as the judge told us , it is clear what the intentions were but he cannot re-write history or add missing words.



some of the issues those who use canned documents in our state ,ny run in to are :

Preparing and executing a valid health care proxy provides a good illustration. The health care proxy is a document that allows an individual (the “principal”) to appoint an agent to make health care decisions in case he/she becomes incapacitated. The main purpose of the health care proxy is to appoint an agent. There is a presumption that the agent knows the principal’s wishes. Nonetheless, according to New York State case law, if a principal’s wishes regarding the withholding of artificial nutrition and hydration are not articulated, an agent will not be able to make such decision. Based on this case law, it is imperative for the principal to set forth his/her wishes regarding the administering of artificial nutrition and hydration either in the actual health care proxy or in a separate living will. Failure to do this can result in unforeseen consequences – which is exactly what the principal was trying to avoid in the first place. Secondly, many individuals erroneously believe that they can appoint more than one agent at a time on a health care proxy. This would make the document faulty because only one agent at a time can make medical decisions. A person drafting a health care proxy can add language to avoid insulting other family members, but again- this requires the help of someone with experience. Finally, the document must be witnessed by two individuals in order for it to be validly recognized. A person should not have his agent, spouse or child be a witness to the signing.

We see even more problems in the area of powers of attorney. The main thrust of a power of attorney is to appoint an agent to act on an individual’s behalf with respect to financial matters in case such individual becomes incapacitated. Many people innocently refer to this document as one that is “simple” to prepare. This could not be further from the truth. Firstly, New York State passed legislation effective September 2009 in an attempt to create a statutory form that would be uniformly accepted. This legislation was the result of tremendous abuse that was found in this particular area, with some appointed agents taking advantage of the disabled and elderly.

The new power of attorney law results in a much lengthier document, and significantly restricts the actual power given to the agent over financial matters. If transfers are to be made on behalf of the principal, a separate gift rider must be executed. The gift rider must specifically articulate the agent’s power to make gifts to himself/herself or to third parties. Further, any additional powers beyond those enumerated in the statute, must be added to a modification section. Finally, while the law mandates banks, brokerage houses and other financial institutions to recognize the power of attorney, the form utilized must be statutory. Accordingly, if someone decides to cut corners and download a form from the internet, this may result in a tremendous disservice because if the form is not statutory, it does not have to be legally recognized. The power of attorney is an extremely important tool for estate and elder law practitioner. If the principal incorrectly drafts and/or executes this form, his/her ultimate plans regarding Medicaid eligibility or gifting to loved ones could be completely stymied. It is imperative to have this document prepared by an experienced practitioner.

A last will and testament is yet another document that must be prepared under the supervision of any experienced attorney. After the person who executed the will dies (the “decedent”), the will gets admitted to probate through surrogate’s court so that the decedent’s wishes can ultimately be fulfilled. Through the probate process, the will is reviewed and the court checks to make sure the will was drafted and executed properly. The number of witnesses, the affidavit they sign and the way the will is fastened are some examples of what the court reviews. Any mistakes, such as the removal of a staple or an ambiguous bequest can result in unnecessary delays, costly legal fees, and at worse, an inability to complete the probate process.
 
Keeping it simple: Probate is where a judge gives the executor of an estate the authority to sign for the deceased in matters of selling real estate and liquidating assets. At the same time, they'll want to be assured that all liabilities have been paid--including U.S. and state taxes.

Every married couple needs the real estate deeds filed with rights of survivorship. And bank accounts need to be held jointly--giving the last one standing the ability to transfer funds. Later, a kid that's preferably going to be the executor, should be on their parents accounts.

Mutual funds, retirement accounts and insurance policies that allow beneficiaries need the spouse or next of kin as primary and also have a secondary beneficiary named--usually a kid. These are usually outside of the estate anyway.

When the surviving spouse dies and there is still real estate, then the will must be probated. Some would think they can add the kid(s) on the real estate prior to the last parent, but that's not the way to go. The kids should have a new real estate appraisal done at the last parents' death, and let that be the "basis" on the real estate. Otherwise, the tax hit would be much higher carrying forward the parents' "basis" on the real estate than getting it out of probate.

While it's nice to be comfortable in life, it's also nice to keep one's business simple. The very wealthy need big life insurance, trust funds, etc. As Bill O'Reilly says, "I'm just a simple man." And I prefer to keep things easy to deal with.\

I would dread being my daughter and 2 stepkids after we're gone--having to do something with all "this stuff."
 
OP here... thanks for the input... I'm still weighing things... one of those important but no urgent projects that get my attention now and again but wanted to let you all know that I am still following the discussion.
 
I think pb4uski in the OP used an important method that is important in addition to the will. That is beneficiary designations. Everything in the will goes through probate and will be public. After my father passed, my mom was hit up by many people wanting to sell her services or stuff she did not need. She was not prepared for this and ran thru the money quickly getting very bad deals. There are people who just glean the asset and contact info from the probate courts and and use it as a potential customer list for high pressure sales. Note you don't need a large estate to interest these guys.

Wills and beneficiary designations also don't help when someone is declining, but has not passed. POA's and trusts can be very helpful for these issues in estate planning. Maybe I extend the definition of estate planning to before death a bit in this case. But I think protecting the estate before death is part of it.

But I agree many don't need full blown trusts.

Absolutely, I was referring to the fact that a will may be more appropriate vs a trust in many situations. Of course proper beneficiary designations, POA, etc should also be made if not already in place. Definitely smart to keep as much as you can out of probate, but at least in some states probate may not be as protracted and onerous as other states, so it pays to understand how that might effect ones situation.
 
We met with an estate planner before updating our will. In addition to all the expected points of discussion, she suggested we consider writing a letter to each of our children. Her father did this for her and it is one of her most cherished items. I've drafted one for each of our children and one to my spouse. I plan to update these annually before we submit our taxes. Tax time just keeps me on schedule.
 
Keeping it simple: Probate is where a judge gives the executor of an estate the authority to sign for the deceased in matters of selling real estate and liquidating assets. At the same time, they'll want to be assured that all liabilities have been paid--including U.S. and state taxes.

Every married couple needs the real estate deeds filed with rights of survivorship. And bank accounts need to be held jointly--giving the last one standing the ability to transfer funds. Later, a kid that's preferably going to be the executor, should be on their parents accounts.

Mutual funds, retirement accounts and insurance policies that allow beneficiaries need the spouse or next of kin as primary and also have a secondary beneficiary named--usually a kid. These are usually outside of the estate anyway.

When the surviving spouse dies and there is still real estate, then the will must be probated. Some would think they can add the kid(s) on the real estate prior to the last parent, but that's not the way to go. The kids should have a new real estate appraisal done at the last parents' death, and let that be the "basis" on the real estate. Otherwise, the tax hit would be much higher carrying forward the parents' "basis" on the real estate than getting it out of probate.

While it's nice to be comfortable in life, it's also nice to keep one's business simple. The very wealthy need big life insurance, trust funds, etc. As Bill O'Reilly says, "I'm just a simple man." And I prefer to keep things easy to deal with.\

I would dread being my daughter and 2 stepkids after we're gone--having to do something with all "this stuff."

Assuming the one of the children would be the executor having a stand alone account that holds between 5 and 10k should provide funds until the life insurance comes in, and the will is probated. Typically it might take 2 months so you need to have funds to pay utility bills and the like, until the probate is opened.
 
To continue the subject I could use some options on other methods of reducing WA state death tax. ABC trust or AB Qtip methods work for some, but in our case a significant amount >the non-portable state exemption can not be held in a trust more than 24 months (due to PS corp RCW 18.100- shares can only be held by one licensed in the profession). I am considering options to move the shares to an employee over time using RSU's, but the whole state tax code is difficult unless you just gift away your assets prior to death, the heirs gets to pay a lot of tax. WA is a community property state, so there is no tax between spouses if structured one way, but that removes the trust option for protection of future heirs, and does not help with the PS corp restriction on holding shares. I so far am not finding the right attorney local, any suggestions in WA?
 
To continue the subject I could use some options on other methods of reducing WA state death tax. ABC trust or AB Qtip methods work for some, but in our case a significant amount >the non-portable state exemption can not be held in a trust more than 24 months (due to PS corp RCW 18.100- shares can only be held by one licensed in the profession). I am considering options to move the shares to an employee over time using RSU's, but the whole state tax code is difficult unless you just gift away your assets prior to death, the heirs gets to pay a lot of tax. WA is a community property state, so there is no tax between spouses if structured one way, but that removes the trust option for protection of future heirs, and does not help with the PS corp restriction on holding shares. I so far am not finding the right attorney local, any suggestions in WA?

I will send you a name via PM here in just a minute.
 
To continue the subject I could use some options on other methods of reducing WA state death tax. ABC trust or AB Qtip methods work for some, but in our case a significant amount >the non-portable state exemption can not be held in a trust more than 24 months (due to PS corp RCW 18.100- shares can only be held by one licensed in the profession). I am considering options to move the shares to an employee over time using RSU's, but the whole state tax code is difficult unless you just gift away your assets prior to death, the heirs gets to pay a lot of tax. WA is a community property state, so there is no tax between spouses if structured one way, but that removes the trust option for protection of future heirs, and does not help with the PS corp restriction on holding shares. I so far am not finding the right attorney local, any suggestions in WA?

Move.
 
Here is what happened in my case. We had a family trust set up, but at the time the inheritance tax floor was around $! mil. They then raised it, but i never got around to changing the trust.
The trust initially was set up as an A/B trust with QTIP provisions. Fortunately, there was wording in the trust for it to be dissolved if the assets were less than $40 K.
When the balance dropped below 40K, I dissolved the trust according to the trust provisions
 
Back
Top Bottom