Finding a 'lost' CD

[jazz4cash]

Even if she lost track of the money or the money lost track of her, the money (by law) should be in Florida unclaimed funds. But it's not. She might not have earned any interest for the last ten years because the money was sitting in unclaimed funds, but the money should be sitting in unclaimed funds. And it sits there forever, from what I understand.

It’s similar to the bad behavior by MetLife (I think) that lost track of individuals with pension benefits. They made almost no effort to contact the individuals, failed to transfer the funds to a state unclaimed assets Dept. Basically took the funds as profit until they got caught. Kudos to you OP for pursuing this.

 

[pb4uski]

You mean this one?

Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. and parent company MetLife Inc. defeated a proposed class action claiming they wrongly withheld up to $500 million owed to as many as 30,000 annuity customers.

The lawsuit was governed by contracts between Metropolitan Life and various employers that enlisted the insurer in providing retirement benefits to their employees, a federal judge said Jan. 15. Given the existence of valid contracts, the quasi-contractual claims raised by annuity recipient Edward Roycroft—including unjust enrichment and restitution—must fail, the judge said. ...

 

[Buckeye]

It’s similar to the bad behavior by MetLife (I think) that lost track of individuals with pension benefits. They made almost no effort to contact the individuals, failed to transfer the funds to a state unclaimed assets Dept. Basically took the funds as profit until they got caught. Kudos to you OP for pursuing this.

Have to give the bullies and thieves a run for their money. I hate cheaters. And my friend would be livid if she heard about this up in heaven.

 

[rothlev]

There is a chance that upon merging the CD was closed without your friends permission, if for example the bank simply did not want to carry it.


IF that happened she might have received the funds thru a direct deposit into her checking account.



I would also review the banking records , account records for the months around the merger to see if any funds were deposited into her account that matched the missing CD amount.


If the funds did not show up in her account that is additonal proof that is was never redeemed.

 

[Buckeye]

There is a chance that upon merging the CD was closed without your friends permission, if for example the bank simply did not want to carry it.


IF that happened she might have received the funds thru a direct deposit into her checking account.



I would also review the banking records , account records for the months around the merger to see if any funds were deposited into her account that matched the missing CD amount.


If the funds did not show up in her account that is additonal proof that is was never redeemed.

After learning so many others have had the same issue with regular CD's (see the stories at the links in prior posts) and other clients of the funeral home had the same problem with burial reserve CD's, it's now obvious to me that Wells Fargo is cheating people.

My friend's handwritten note says the value of her CD's was nearly $13,000 in 2010. She would have noticed a deposit of that size and wouldn't have been inquiring about the value of the CD's in 2015. She was 89 in 2010 but she was sharp mentally until nearly the day she died at 99.

 

[jazz4cash]

Have you estimated the value yourself? $13k sounds too high. Can you get a tax return for the year after the last 1009 INT?

 

[Buckeye]

Have you estimated the value yourself? $13k sounds too high. Can you get a tax return for the year after the last 1009 INT?

I know they started out at 6.5% for a 3 year term. I have no way of knowing what percentages she renewed or for how long but it could have been pretty good rates if you look at the prime rates from 1991-2010.

Prime Rate History (Monthly)

The CD's had collected interest for 19 years when she wrote down that value. It would take an average interest rate of 7.7 to grow $3,000 to $12,800 over 19 years. Not out of the realm of reality when you look at the prime rate between 1991 and 2010.

 

[teej1985]

Thanks for the heads up. It sounds like you received the money you were owed though which is good to know. I have started to investigate small claims court. Her son would have to give me power of attorney (I'm assuming) to be his representative in court. He lives in PA. The max amount I can sue for is $8,000 so I might have to do 2 cases, one for each CD (originally $1,000 and $2,000). The last known value is $12,800 so it would be one case for $8,000 and one for about $4.300.

I have to file in the county she lived (and we used to live) which is a 100 mile drive to the courthouse but I'm fine with that. All sorts of stuff can be done online nowadays. I learned a lot about the system when I processed the Order for Summary Administration. I will have evidence to present and all Wells Fargo will tell the judge is, "Can't find nothin'."

If you got a federal agency involved, it would most likely be the CFPB. Most likely what would happen instead of dealing with a local branch manager, it would go to someone in the CEO's office. I would file a CFPB complaint and include links to all those news articles showing the issue happening to others. I would certainly give that a shot prior to going through the courts. Don't settle for $12,800 when there should be ten additional years of interest. https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/

 

[Buckeye]

If you got a federal agency involved, it would most likely be the CFPB. Most likely what would happen instead of dealing with a local branch manager, it would go to someone in the CEO's office. I would file a CFPB complaint and include links to all those news articles showing the issue happening to others. I would certainly give that a shot prior to going through the courts. Don't settle for $12,800 when there should be ten additional years of interest. https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/

Are we in a worse position if the CFPB rules against us and for Wells Fargo and then we go to small claims court and are asked about any rulings by government agencies? Is it better to possibly lose in small claims court first and then go to the CFPB? I'm guessing the CFPB won't care about a negative small claims court ruling but the court might care about a negative ruling (Wells Fargo owes nothing) by the CFPB.

Or is that something not to be considered?

 

[teej1985]

Are we in a worse position if the CFPB rules against us and for Wells Fargo and then we go to small claims court and are asked about any rulings by government agencies? Is it better to possibly lose in small claims court first and then go to the CFPB? I'm guessing the CFPB won't care about a negative small claims court ruling but the court might care about a negative ruling (Wells Fargo owes nothing) by the CFPB.

Or is that something not to be considered?

I suppose you could bypass the CFPB and contact the office of the CEO directly and see if that helps anything. You cuold also call CFPB and ask them this question. https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/process/

 

[Scrapr]

Are we in a worse position if the CFPB rules against us and for Wells Fargo and then we go to small claims court and are asked about any rulings by government agencies? Is it better to possibly lose in small claims court first and then go to the CFPB? I'm guessing the CFPB won't care about a negative small claims court ruling but the court might care about a negative ruling (Wells Fargo owes nothing) by the CFPB.

Or is that something not to be considered?

In my mind WF is likely to ignore (or stretch out the resolution) of a small claims court ruling. They won't do that to a CFPB or OCC inquiry. I think someone above mentioned your Senator or Congressman. They live to help a costituent. I would try either one those before small claims action.

But, who knows. You may win a bank branch in a settlement

 

[Buckeye]

In my mind WF is likely to ignore (or stretch out the resolution) of a small claims court ruling. They won't do that to a CFPB or OCC inquiry. I think someone above mentioned your Senator or Congressman. They live to help a costituent. I would try either one those before small claims action.

But, who knows. You may win a bank branch in a settlement

Haha! Winning a Wells Fargo branch would be the booby prize!

Friday I submitted a 'help me' form to my Congresswoman her office forwarded me for a different issue. I'm requesting someone audit the Veterans Dental Insurance Plan (VADIP) carriers at year end to see if the two companies in the program have windfall profits because we have been unable to use our benefits.
If automobile companies can rebate portions of premiums, why not dental insurance companies that are not regulated by a medical loss ratio like medical insurance companies.

When I submitted that form, I described the saga of Mary's CD's (including those very enlightening links) and asked if this was also something she could help with. I got a message my contact was out until 6/23 so we'll see what he has to say about submitting another form.

 

[Buckeye]

If you got a federal agency involved, it would most likely be the CFPB. Most likely what would happen instead of dealing with a local branch manager, it would go to someone in the CEO's office. I would file a CFPB complaint and include links to all those news articles showing the issue happening to others. I would certainly give that a shot prior to going through the courts. Don't settle for $12,800 when there should be ten additional years of interest. https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/

I'm assuming the rot starts at the top at Wells Fargo so contacting higher ups there is low on my list.

I'm willing to concede the funds could have/should have been escheated for the last 10 years or so. The interest rates, in general, were low during those years so it's not a huge deal. Right now we're looking at $0 so $12,800 look pretty good!

 

[Buckeye]

The Resolution

Wells Fargo is (somewhat) exonerated. After 9+ weeks, we received a response to the email (email only, no calls taken) sent to the Wells Fargo unclaimed property office. There WAS a record of my friend at Wachovia/Wells Fargo...which we knew all along.

After his appointment with the local branch manager a month ago, her son received a call supposedly from the unclaimed property office. The rep told him there was no record of his mother at Wachovia/Wells Fargo.

Now, the unclaimed property rep (via email) told us he HAD one 2010 1099-INT for the CD that was not the Burial Reserve CD account. We didn't have her 2010 tax returns so I did not have this information. This piece of information told me the Burial Reserve CD would have had to have been transferred in 2009.

I called the bank to which the Burial Reserve monies might have been transferred since I now had a window of time to search. I also had the information from my friend's hand-written note that the balance of the burial CD was about $12,000. The bank is a smaller bank and I had talked to this rep multiple times helping my friend's son receive funds due him. Thankfully, she was willing to work with me over the phone.

I asked her if she could look in the system for an incoming transfer of approximately $12,000 in 2009. She said "Hang on a minute while I do a search." She was able to immediately search under my friend's SSN and she found a $12,000 incoming transfer in Feb 2009. Bingo! There was no 2009 1099-INT for the $12,000 CD my friend purchased because it was set up to credit interest annually. The interest didn't show up until her 2010 taxes (which I did not have).

So, the end of the story (at least what I can piece together with the info available) is that the $3,000 she deposited into a CD in 1991 was transferred out of Wachovia (the name did not change until 2011 come to find out) in 2009 into another bank and placed into CD that lost the burial reserve designation.

I emailed with the unclaimed property guy who found the 2010 1099-INT and asked him why no one else was able to find this document. "Oh, no one ever knows the right place to look!" Aaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!

So, Wells Fargo is exonerated in that nothing nefarious happened to the $12,000. What is not exonerated is their utter incompetence!

 

[REWahoo]

So, Wells Fargo is exonerated in that nothing nefarious happened to the $12,000. What is not exonerated is their utter incompetence!

Once again, Hanlon's razor.

 

[Scratchy]

Wells Fargo is (somewhat) exonerated. After 9+ weeks, we received a response to the email (email only, no calls taken) sent to the Wells Fargo unclaimed property office. There WAS a record of my friend at Wachovia/Wells Fargo...which we knew all along.

After his appointment with the local branch manager a month ago, her son received a call supposedly from the unclaimed property office. The rep told him there was no record of his mother at Wachovia/Wells Fargo.

Now, the unclaimed property rep (via email) told us he HAD one 2010 1099-INT for the CD that was not the Burial Reserve CD account. We didn't have her 2010 tax returns so I did not have this information. This piece of information told me the Burial Reserve CD would have had to have been transferred in 2009.

I called the bank to which the Burial Reserve monies might have been transferred since I now had a window of time to search. I also had the information from my friend's hand-written note that the balance of the burial CD was about $12,000. The bank is a smaller bank and I had talked to this rep multiple times helping my friend's son receive funds due him. Thankfully, she was willing to work with me over the phone.

I asked her if she could look in the system for an incoming transfer of approximately $12,000 in 2009. She said "Hang on a minute while I do a search." She was able to immediately search under my friend's SSN and she found a $12,000 incoming transfer in Feb 2009. Bingo! There was no 2009 1099-INT for the $12,000 CD my friend purchased because it was set up to credit interest annually. The interest didn't show up until her 2010 taxes (which I did not have).

So, the end of the story (at least what I can piece together with the info available) is that the $3,000 she deposited into a CD in 1991 was transferred out of Wachovia (the name did not change until 2011 come to find out) in 2009 into another bank and placed into CD that lost the burial reserve designation.

I emailed with the unclaimed property guy who found the 2010 1099-INT and asked him why no one else was able to find this document. "Oh, no one ever knows the right place to look!" Aaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!

So, Wells Fargo is exonerated in that nothing nefarious happened to the $12,000. What is not exonerated is their utter incompetence!

This makes my head hurt. Do others understand what happened here?

 

[rothlev]

This makes my head hurt. Do others understand what happened here?

I am interpreting this to mean the money was moved to a different bank account, and lost its charactor as a burial CD. Thus it was not lost.



Is this correct?

 

[jazz4cash]

This makes my head hurt. Do others understand what happened here?

I’m with you and very very confused. OP seems to be satisfied and that makes me happy but I’m not sure what actually happened to the money and no clue whatsoever how WF gets exonerated. Imagine asking a bank about your money and that don’t know where to look for it. BTW, DBIL is a WF retiree and he attributes all the foolishness to what he calls the Wacho management team domination of the WF management.

 

[aja8888]

We need a flow chart with arrows and numbers in it! (is there money now or not? And where did it go, if not?)

 

[cathy63]

As I piece together the story ...

2008 - Burial CDs were at Wachovia and were fine. Another CD was also at Wachovia and was fine. Wells Fargo bought Wachovia, completing the transaction on the last day of the year.
2009 - We now know that Friend moved Burial CD from Wells/Wach to Bank X. By then it had grown to $12K.
2010 - Friend did not receive a TY 2009 1099 from Wells/Wach for the Burial CD, which we now know was correct, because it was no longer at that bank. Apparently Friend did not get any interest in 2009 on that money because Wells/Wach didn't issue a 1099 and neither did Bank X. (That seems odd to me.) Friend did receive a 1099 for the other CD that remained at Wells/Wach, which is also now known because the unclaimed property office at Wells finally supplied that info.
2011 - Wells/Wach completed the name change and became Wells Fargo. Friend received a 2010 1099 from Wells for the non-burial CD.
....
2020 - Friend dies. Buckeye and Friend's Son ask Wells Fargo to cash out Burial CD and they say "we don't have it". That was true. They also said "we never heard of Friend". That was not true because they issued a TY 2010 1099 to her for the other CD.

 

[Scratchy]

As I piece together the story ...

2008 - Burial CDs were at Wachovia and were fine. Another CD was also at Wachovia and was fine. Wells Fargo bought Wachovia, completing the transaction on the last day of the year.
2009 - We now know that Friend moved Burial CD from Wells/Wach to Bank X. By then it had grown to $12K.
2010 - Friend did not receive a TY 2009 1099 from Wells/Wach for the Burial CD, which we now know was correct, because it was no longer at that bank. Apparently Friend did not get any interest in 2009 on that money because Wells/Wach didn't issue a 1099 and neither did Bank X. (That seems odd to me.) Friend did receive a 1099 for the other CD that remained at Wells/Wach, which is also now known because the unclaimed property office at Wells finally supplied that info.
2011 - Wells/Wach completed the name change and became Wells Fargo. Friend received a 2010 1099 from Wells for the non-burial CD.
....
2020 - Friend dies. Buckeye and Friend's Son ask Wells Fargo to cash out Burial CD and they say "we don't have it". That was true. They also said "we never heard of Friend". That was not true because they issued a TY 2010 1099 to her for the other CD.

Thanks Cathy63, this adds a lot of clarity. What ultimately happened to the $12k? I'm assuming the CD was liquidated and disbursed to the friend prior to death and no money is owed now? Do we know if and when the friend received it?

 

[Buckeye]

Once again, Hanlon's razor.

So true.

 

[Buckeye]

I am interpreting this to mean the money was moved to a different bank account, and lost its charactor as a burial CD. Thus it was not lost.



Is this correct?

Yes, that is correct.

I'm sorry I didn't do a recap. The story has been told over a long series of posts I'm sure no one wants to read. It was all clear to me! I will do a summary post soon.

I felt obligated to post the conclusion Wells Fargo wasn't the bunch of crooks I thought they were. Just incompetent and lazy.

 

[rothlev]

Yes, that is correct.

I'm sorry I didn't do a recap. The story has been told over a long series of posts I'm sure no one wants to read. It was all clear to me! I will do a summary post soon.

I felt obligated to post the conclusion Wells Fargo wasn't the bunch of crooks I thought they were. Just incompetent and lazy.

actually, this was a very interesting story. They should have been able to look up what happened. something in their system is very broken. But I have had my share of banking snafu's , so not surprised. I had one where my son deposited his paycheck into the atm machine, and they refused to credit his account for his money, saying the envelope was empty, even when we provided them the cancelled check that they cashed !

 

[Buckeye]

Thanks Cathy63, this adds a lot of clarity. What ultimately happened to the $12k? I'm assuming the CD was liquidated and disbursed to the friend prior to death and no money is owed now? Do we know if and when the friend received it?

The Burial Reserve CD that was at Wachovia (Wachovia wasn't renamed to Wells Fargo until 2011 even though Wells Fargo owned Wachovia as of 12/31/2008) was liquidated in early 2009 and the $12,000 was transferred to a small bank in Clearwater, FL near where my friend lived.

The $12,000 from Wachovia was placed in another CD at the local bank but the funds were no longer designated as a Burial Reserve CD. Apparently, she was never required to present the original Burial Reserve certificates to turn the CD to cash at Wachovia.

When my friend died in March 2020 at 99, all of her CD's at this local bank (which had also been bought and changed names!) were paid on death to her son (who is 78 years old). So, her son DID receive the monies which originally purchased the Burial Reserve CD's in 1991. He was set financially before his mom passed so he had funds available for her cremation, transport to PA, and small funeral (COVID rules) where her ashes were buried in a family plot.