Florida living

[Andre1969]

I didn't know, either. When I moved to FL from MD four years ago, one of my very first trips was to the tax office for my Homestead application.

My RE taxes were at the previous owner's low rate during the first year, then jumped 50%* (yikes) based on what I paid for the home. Thank goodness for homesteading, as there has been a price "bubble" in my area (they never last).

*It was really 50%, not 33%. Double yikes!

I had a similar thing happen when I bought my house, back in 2018. This was an in-Maryland move, and I knew all about the homestead tax credit. Taxes on the new house were listed at something like $3300, which seemed awfully low to me. However, the house is on well & septic. And while it was extensively remodeled and enlarged in 2008, the assessments hadn't captured that yet. So they had it listed as a 960 square foot house built in 1968. I didn't even think to look up the actual property tax bill, which would have shown how much the homestead tax credit was.

Plus, I bought the house in early September, so the property taxes hadn't been paid yet by the previous owner, but rather by me. So, I figured the $3300 is just what I started at.

So, imagine my shock when, the next year, it came in around $4800! I called the tax office, and they said that was because I had gotten the previous owner's homestead tax credit that first year.

Another thing that happened, in early 2019, is that the house got reassessed, and they finally captured all of those 2008 improvements. The "Above Grade Living Area" jumped from 960 to 3929 square feet. Oddly, that jump didn't make the taxes go up much; it was the elimination of the previous owner's homestead tax credit that did most of it.

Also, I don't know how they count the value of secondary structures. I had a 36x60 pole barn garage with loft built in 2021, and I seriously doubt that's on the assessment yet. However, at my old house, way back in 2006 I had a 24x40 garage built, and it seemed to have no bearing on the assessment/taxes.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

I think after Hurricane Ian and the damage that was prevalent all along the West coast, there will be a lot of changes there with reference to insurance. One hurricane like that can break an insurance company. I am glad we are in the NE., but feel very bad for those in the west who were/are affected.

The worst part is no one seems to be doing anything to mitigate the carnage. I will not be surprised if home prices start to plumet in the SW and SE when folks realize that home and flood insurance rates become stratospheric. It does not seem to be affecting anything now though. Depending on what one reads home prices seem to still be strong.

 

[Koolau]

I think after Hurricane Ian and the damage that was prevalent all along the West coast, there will be a lot of changes there with reference to insurance. One hurricane like that can break an insurance company. I am glad we are in the NE., but feel very bad for those in the west who were/are affected.

The worst part is no one seems to be doing anything to mitigate the carnage. I will not be surprised if home prices start to plumet in the SW and SE when folks realize that home and flood insurance rates become stratospheric. It does not seem to be affecting anything now though. Depending on what one reads home prices seem to still be strong.

Apparently SW and SE have issues with hurricanes. Are there major issues with the NE? I've mentioned elsewhere that I kinda fell in love with St. Augustine. The rest of Florida, not so much.

 

[Badger]

I think after Hurricane Ian and the damage that was prevalent all along the West coast, there will be a lot of changes there with reference to insurance. One hurricane like that can break an insurance company. I am glad we are in the NE., but feel very bad for those in the west who were/are affected.

The worst part is no one seems to be doing anything to mitigate the carnage. I will not be surprised if home prices start to plumet in the SW and SE when folks realize that home and flood insurance rates become stratospheric. It does not seem to be affecting anything now though. Depending on what one reads home prices seem to still be strong.

I thought south Florida would have seen some migration decades ago when there was a serious drought and there was major concern that salt water intrusion would make obtaining freshwater from the aquafer next to impossible. But people have short memories and those who are not living there are not always aware of problems in areas in which they are not located. Fortunately it didn't happen although there have been a few other less serious droughts since.
Now it is the insurance or lack of insurance that may be the latest stimulus for a migration resulting in a drop in the price of housing in south Florida. I'm glad to live in NE Fl where there is a better chance of being able to ride out most hurricanes and northeasters.
I still have home insurance and flood insurance but dropped "Wind and Hail" insurance (formerly called Hurricane insurance) when the premiums skyrocketed. That could be a mistake but this old concrete block house with metal roof and metal hurricane shutters has survived every storm since 1955. If the house were to blow away the vacant lot would still sell for 20x what I paid. For the hurricane issues as well as a few others concerns I have never had an interest in central and south Florida.

Cheers!

 

[JoeWras]

Apparently SW and SE have issues with hurricanes. Are there major issues with the NE? I've mentioned elsewhere that I kinda fell in love with St. Augustine. The rest of Florida, not so much.

The math, geography and history of hurricane tracking is very favorable for St. Augustine and Jacksonville.

The coast swings in, and at this latitude, hurricanes tend to turn right due to prevailing upper winds. This is known as recurvature.

Never say never, but a direct hit from the east with a powerful hurricane is less likely in this area. According to NOAA, only two impactful hits have occurred in the last 150 years, with the largest one being a cat 4 in 1898. There was a cat 2 in 1964.

Let me put it this way: I live in NC and we are sitting ducks, even inland. If I ever moved to FL again, I would choose this area. It is the "safest" area on the coast from Virginia Beach, VA to Brownsville, TX.

The biggest issue with St. Aug is getting a backside hit from a strong cat 3 and above that hits on the west coast. Even these can be unpleasant. It is similar to what we feel in the interior of NC, and I can say it is not fun.

Here's a tool you can use to track hurricanes. You can choose the strength to weed out the noise. Give it a try. I'm attaching a screen-shot of the output for Jacksonville, which shows the recurve trend, i.e. hurricanes swing their track right and tend to parallel the coast even after a long time of heading for FL.

https://coast.noaa.gov/hurricanes/#map=4/32/-80

 

[Koolau]

^^^^^^^^


Very interesting. Thanks.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^

That just about sums it up, we do get the tail end of some storms that come from the West coast. I think I prefer that to a direct hit or a storm that skirts up the whole coast.

 

[Badger]

For what it's worth here is a news video from last year when Ian (2022) came through St Augustine. The second report is when Nicole (2022) came through St Augustine. Then there is Hurricane Irma (2017) and Matthew (2016) etc. that flooded St Augustine and in most of those hurricanes sections of A!A were washed out. They aren't just rain showers.

Cheers!

 

[ShokWaveRider]

^^^^^^^^
Definitely a non resident cherry picking the worst pics they can find off the net. From a resident, downtown St. Agustine water front floods when a cloud spits on it, not only in a storm, Lower King street too. That has no bearing on the rest of residential St. Augustine. That is downtown and just over the bridge to the south in Davis shores. No one in their right mind would buy a home in Davis shores as they would be asking for trouble, not to mention the water is bad there too. Matthew was an exception as it did go a little further south, but only on A1A. We were here for all those storm and TS Fay too (you forgot that one).

It is a well known fact that this happens all the time, as locals know. Downtown is a low spot, especially by the waterfront. Not too many folks actually live there, no one will fix it as the historic area pulls in too much revenue, they just keep patching it over. Unfortunately, there are a lot of homes in Davis shores that in this resident's opinion are unsellable, although some folks do get pulled into doing so by some less than above board realtors. Buyer beware as usual.

Before one even thinks of buying a home anywhere in Florida, common sense says check the Flood Zone. Here is the one for St. Johns County in NE Florida. Keep it simple, only by a home in an "X" or "X Shaded Zone". Just move around to the area you may be considering and zoom in till you see the Zone pop up.

https://www.gis.sjcfl.us/floodviewer/

 

[JoeWras]

We see similar in the Carolinas.

Here's something interesting about flooding of coastal homes. Before wall to wall carpeting and drywall, many of these homes were able to take a little bit of flooding. I know the narrative today is everything is "unprecedented," but it isn't. The homes might take a few inches to a foot of water. They'd roll up the rugs and put them on a table. Cabinets were on legs. Chairs were solid wood. The water would recede, they open the windows and doors, and get back to life.

Enter the modern era. Builders build modern homes with particle board, drywall and wall to wall carpet. They build them at the same elevation of the old home. And it is a mess.

I spent a couple of weeks doing disaster recovery on the island of Ocracoke, NC. The oldest homes were modestly built up a foot or two, on pilings. These homes had floor-doors. The doors (like a trap door) were opened to allow the flood in. This avoided having the structure becoming like a boat and were there to ruin some of buoyancy.

This guy has a picture and people discuss it in the comments:
https://villagecraftsmen.blogspot.com/2018/01/trap-door.html


Nobody in the southeast is immune from flooding from hurricanes or depressions. This includes inland areas hundreds of miles from the shore. The shore of course has surge impacts. Look at your flood map before buying anything.

 

[Koolau]

We see similar in the Carolinas.

Here's something interesting about flooding of coastal homes. Before wall to wall carpeting and drywall, many of these homes were able to take a little bit of flooding. I know the narrative today is everything is "unprecedented," but it isn't. The homes might take a few inches to a foot of water. They'd roll up the rugs and put them on a table. Cabinets were on legs. Chairs were solid wood. The water would recede, they open the windows and doors, and get back to life.

Enter the modern era. Builders build modern homes with particle board, drywall and wall to wall carpet. They build them at the same elevation of the old home. And it is a mess.

I spent a couple of weeks doing disaster recovery on the island of Ocracoke, NC. The oldest homes were modestly built up a foot or two, on pilings. These homes had floor-doors. The doors (like a trap door) were opened to allow the flood in. This avoided having the structure becoming like a boat and were there to ruin some of buoyancy.

This guy has a picture and people discuss it in the comments:
https://villagecraftsmen.blogspot.com/2018/01/trap-door.html

Wow. If flooding was that "typical" I think I'd be moving or maybe putting the whole house up on stilts.

 

[JoeWras]

Wow. If flooding was that "typical" I think I'd be moving or maybe putting the whole house up on stilts.

I'm not sure they had the capability to build on stilts in a sturdy way back then. They also depended on cisterns for water, which probably would not be convenient if you were up on stilts.

It was just a different time and they lived differently.

Interestingly, some of the houses we worked on were in the process of being lifted on stilts by FEMA. This is an ongoing process. The deal is FEMA pays a good portion of the cost if the homeowner commits to buying flood insurance.

Here's a picture of island church in the process of being raised. Today it is on stilts. It suffered bad damage in the 2020 flood since repairs were made with modern materials.

 

[Koolau]

A couple bought a house on Oahu and wanted to upgrade it. Unfortunately, they were in the new inundation zone for future tsunamis. They literally had to rebuild the house's foundation about 3 feet higher as they remodeled it. I'm guessing it was a bit (but not much) cheaper than a tear-down and rebuild.

 

[Buckeye]

This is not breaking news. Insurers have been leaving the state since the hurricane seasons of 2004 and 2005.

Far, far worse now than it has been, IMO.

 

[Scuba]

The insurance situation is scary for sure. We’ve been getting quotes on a few homes we’ve been interested in, and it hasn’t been as bad as I thought - around $3K/year plus another $600-$800 for optional flood insurance. We are only considering properties in Zone X. The age of the home has a lot to do with how expensive the insurance is. New construction is only around $2K to insure.

I’m wondering a couple of things:
- Even if we buy a new or newer home, what happens when it gets to be 10-20 years old? I’ve heard some companies are requiring roof replacement if the roof is 10 years old. That seems insane to me.
- What is going to happen to all the older housing stock? Are people just self insuring? There are many nice neighborhoods where homes were built in the early 2000’s, and the insurance broker is steering us away from anything built before 2012.

 

[FlaGator]

I've lived in FL for 25 years. Been through a Cat 3 hurricane (Wilma, 2005) and few tropical storms. Insurance carriers? Two in SoFLA from 1998-2015, Cititzens being the second and last. Two in the last 8 years living a mile from the beach in the Panhandle. Did see a 50% increase in premiums in the last 2 years.

I "have been told" a big part of the insurance problem here is fraudulent roof damage claims, which the legislature recently addressed. But that potential liability will be on those carriers' books for years. New entrants get relief from that, and just have to deal with the catastrophic hurricane losses when they happen. "So I have been told" by people in the business.

The state chartered and funded Citizens after the losses from Andrew in 1992 when the majors pulled out. There was an effort after the 2004-5 bad hurricane years to bring in new companies and move the Citizen book to them, but many have since pulled back or failed.

I'm a FL optimist and believe the state will either beef up Citizens to cover more residents and/or take steps to shore up the hurricane side of private company books. We have the means to do so, but no one will like what it costs. The days of cheap insurance are over, but there will be coverage - it's in the state's interest to do so.

I'm not leaving, but will never like what I pay for insurance. I do miss that $2,000 premium in 2016, it's $4,500 now.

 

[Badger]

The insurance situation is scary for sure. We’ve been getting quotes on a few homes we’ve been interested in, and it hasn’t been as bad as I thought - around $3K/year plus another $600-$800 for optional flood insurance. We are only considering properties in Zone X. The age of the home has a lot to do with how expensive the insurance is. New construction is only around $2K to insure.

I’m wondering a couple of things:
- Even if we buy a new or newer home, what happens when it gets to be 10-20 years old? I’ve heard some companies are requiring roof replacement if the roof is 10 years old. That seems insane to me.
- What is going to happen to all the older housing stock? Are people just self insuring? There are many nice neighborhoods where homes were built in the early 2000’s, and the insurance broker is steering us away from anything built before 2012.

Depending on your location in Florida and the quality of shingles, many roofs can be a bit "iffy" after 12 years. Since I have lived at the beach for the past 50+ years I have had to replace a roof about every 12-15 years. Eventually I had a standing seam metal roof installed that should last until I kick the bucket or longer. FYI most shingle warranties are pretty much worthless. Many are prorated and only cover the cost of the shingle and not the more expensive installation. There are, however, a few extended warranties but it will cost more.
I have USAA home owners insurance and it has been a number of years that "Wind and Hail" (hurricane) insurance has been covered by a separate policy by Citizens. Depending on your location for floods you may also need a third policy to cover that too. Most of the most desirable locations are near the coast and fall into this category.
So when you check on insurance be sure to check the premiums for all 3 types of insurance and not just homeowners or you could get a surprise.

Cheers!

 

[ShokWaveRider]

This is an interesting discussion regarding insurance costs. Here is my take.

Is everyone going to leave or stop moving to Florida because of insurance costs? I do not think so. A home in our development > 4,500sqft just sold for ~$2.8m, it has a shingle roof, do you think the new owners are concerned about home insurance costs? Assuming the Florida legislature does not mitigate the current issue promptly enough, there are choices. Like the 3 little Pigs story or the Eek A Mouse Carribean Reggae song "Star Daily News & Gleaner" ...... Built your home with bricks on Rocks ..... (Loose analogy). Translates to Build your home with concrete and tile or Metal on high ground.

There are millions of folks in Florida, and they have to live somewhere. Certain parts of Florida are already becoming a mecca for the well healed, it will probably continue. Like most other states, the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer.

I think it is more likely that insurance will change. Currently we do not insure our birdcage (Floridians Know what this is). It costs $15k-$20k to replace, I self insure it. The same will start to happen with our roofs. We have a tile roof, it would cost $70k to replace. I am sure a lot of well healed Floridians could afford to replace theirs. We would omit it if it was cost prohibitive to insure it. We may see a lot of this happening.

As Scuba noted, being in an X flood zone is the way to go. X Flood Zones near the beach will become a sought-after commodity, If they are not already. Same for inland properties, although we have no desire to move inland, a lot of folks may opt for that choice.

The last thing is to choose a location that is less likely to be subject to devastating natural disasters. No matter where one lives there is always something whether it is Storms in Florida, Hawaii and the Northeast, Tornados in the Midwest, Earthquakes in California and flooding who knows where, there is always something. One may as well live their golden years someplace nice and in our case warm. We were not comfortable with the Southwest, West coast or Southeast Florida, so we did not buy a home there. That was actually just one of the reasons, but we all have our own. Storms will probably get worse before they get better.

Folks who are not comfortable with the risks, and pretty much every location has some, will not move there. Insurance is just one of the concerns.

 

[Kroeran]

If I was starting over in Florida

1) do a full survey of other states, Central America and Islands to be sure there are no suitable cheaper alternatives

2) find a location on highest land far from storm, creek or river surge.

3) looks to me that Crackers build in unrestricted non gated neighborhoods and raise the land under the house about 3 feet. It’s a metal minimalist roof, with a shallow pyramid shape, concrete to the roof line. Cat 5 windows would be a bonus.

4) have a driveway large enough to park a big fishing boat.

5) a concrete structure won’t float, so I would design it to be waterproof above the floor, with a way to dam the entryways. There are devices for that. Consider every detail for the house to take 12 inches of water worst case, and drain rapidly after.

6) solar and backup generation. Power is essential immediately after water intrusion to dry out and avoid mold.

6) don’t build larger than you can pay cash for, and self insure.

I keep plastic bed risers to put under furniture if needed and cut some styrofoam slabs to guerrilla tape into the doorways.

It would be nice if there was a drain that the ground floor sloped toward.

An easy mitigation would raise equipment by design. Water heater on 24 inch platform. Oven and dishwasher elevated, or just have entire kitchen split level 6 inches above main floor.

 

[Aerides]

This piece in Politico focuses on the area of Fort Myers Beach, one of apparently few remaining areas with older middle-class homes built decades ago, beach front. Unlike many areas in SFla that have already been bought and mcMansion'ed years ago, original homes were still here. Until they were hit.

It's a sobering tale that most can't afford to rebuild, and have to just sell the land, given the caps on flood insurance. I would imagine many of these either didn't have regular home owners/windstorm, or that it doesn't apply if 100% of your damage is just from the rising waters (which is why you need both, so that one way or the other, one of them pays).

But government regulations and insurance plans aren’t stopping people from living in dangerous areas, he said. They’re just creating an environment where wealthy people or investors can self-insure or transform what had been residential single-family homes into vacation rentals.

That may save taxpayer dollars, but it also alters the social fabric of these communities.

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/power-switch/2023/07/17/power-switch-00106579

 

[Kroeran]

This piece in Politico focuses on the area of Fort Myers Beach, one of apparently few remaining areas with older middle-class homes built decades ago, beach front. Unlike many areas in SFla that have already been bought and mcMansion'ed years ago, original homes were still here. Until they were hit.

It's a sobering tale that most can't afford to rebuild, and have to just sell the land, given the caps on flood insurance. I would imagine many of these either didn't have regular home owners/windstorm, or that it doesn't apply if 100% of your damage is just from the rising waters (which is why you need both, so that one way or the other, one of them pays).


https://www.politico.com/newsletters/power-switch/2023/07/17/power-switch-00106579

We are just inland from FM beach. Most are able to capture the equity, which is substantial, by selling the land as the house had negative value, and get something twice as nice 20 miles inland.

Not the same lifestyle of course. FM beach will look like Bonita Beach monsters on stilts in 5 years.

Some rich are selling their beach monsters on stilts and moving inland, to eliminate the stress and drama.

 

[Koolau]

Some rich are selling their beach monsters on stilts and moving inland, to eliminate the stress and drama.

Yeah, I don't know what "rich" means, in context, but the one thing this "rich" person wanted was an ocean view. It took a long time to find the right place that was (theoretically) safe from tsunami and hurricane inundation. The idea of giving up my view for more safety doesn't appeal to me. YMMV

 

[Buckeye]

Great article, thanks. I would love to see each Cat 3 - 5 location. The article doesn't even mention West Central Florida where we live. My wife is one major hurricane from packing our bags. Irma missed us in 2017, and Ian in 2022. Even though we weren't directly hit by either one, we were always in the cone of uncertainty and both were Cat 5's 2 or 3 days out squarely headed for us as the target until they drifted south. That added a tremendous amount of stress.

Lived in Lakeland, FL in 2003 (4?) and got hit by 3 of the 4 hurricanes that happened that season. Supposedly hadn't seen a hurricane in that area for 44 years. An awful year.

 

[Montecfo]

Sounds great! Where do I sign up?

 

[Koolau]

Lived in Lakeland, FL in 2003 (4?) and got hit by 3 of the 4 hurricanes that happened that season. Supposedly hadn't seen a hurricane in that area for 44 years. An awful year.

What are the chances for another one? You should be golden - except for the insurance prices!