Funding private loans

[calmloki]

Yesterday we funded another property loan - a 4 plex built in 1970. Tax man says it's True Cash Value is $288k, which is pretty optomistic IMO. Still, 4 840' 2Br/1ba units should easily rent for $550+ each, so $220k looks like an easy value. $64.60/sq.ft.. Borrower is putting up $38k, we are loaning $130k, a lawyer is taking a $22k second position, and the seller is carrying back a $27k third position. Total sale price with closing costs folded in: $217k. We pulled money we had sitting in a Capitol One Costco savings account to fund the loan - it was earning about 3.5%. For grins we asked for a 0.5% up front loan fee and 11% with a 5 year balloon payment and a one year minimum with a 3% prepayment penalty.

Result is that we are looking at maybe 7.5% better interest than CapOne after figuring in the inevitable non-earning transmission days and niggling fees. Another way of looking at it is that we stand to make about $812/month more than the savings account was paying - which is almost the $815 we were charging for the rental house in Monmouth we are trying to sell!

On the down side, as the fed prints dollars the real value of our loan will diminish, and we don't have that cash in the bank to invest or otherwise use, plus there is the risk of having to foreclose. Talked with another local landlord while at the bank yesterday and he was saying that he's bought 2 houses in the last week - cheap! Good for him, but i hope to move out of rentals - loaning money so others can buy cheap is kinda easy compared to fixing frozen pipes and squeezing rent a bit at a time.

 

[omni550]

Yesterday we funded another property loan - a 4 plex built in 1970. Tax man says it's True Cash Value is $288k, which is pretty optomistic IMO. Still, 4 840' 2Br/1ba units should easily rent for $550+ each, so $220k looks like an easy value. $64.60/sq.ft.. Borrower is putting up $38k, we are loaning $130k, a lawyer is taking a $22k second position, and the seller is carrying back a $27k third position. Total sale price with closing costs folded in: $217k. We pulled money we had sitting in a Capitol One Costco savings account to fund the loan - it was earning about 3.5%. For grins we asked for a 0.5% up front loan fee and 11% with a 5 year balloon payment and a one year minimum with a 3% prepayment penalty.

Result is that we are looking at maybe 7.5% better interest than CapOne after figuring in the inevitable non-earning transmission days and niggling fees. Another way of looking at it is that we stand to make about $812/month more than the savings account was paying - which is almost the $815 we were charging for the rental house in Monmouth we are trying to sell!

On the down side, as the fed prints dollars the real value of our loan will diminish, and we don't have that cash in the bank to invest or otherwise use, plus there is the risk of having to foreclose. Talked with another local landlord while at the bank yesterday and he was saying that he's bought 2 houses in the last week - cheap! Good for him, but i hope to move out of rentals - loaning money so others can buy cheap is kinda easy compared to fixing frozen pipes and squeezing rent a bit at a time.

Out of curiosity, what actually happens (and what is the timing of those actions) if they don't pay you back?

 

[Frugality_of_Apathy]

Out of curiosity, what actually happens (and what is the timing of those actions) if they don't pay you back?

Worst case scenario they get to keep whatever money was paid back and get to keep the apartment complex, though it may be a year before they can actually take the deed. Though if they turn it into a meth lab all bets are off and you'll have to sell at a discount or likely lose all your profits getting the house cleaned and certified.

 

[calmloki]

Out of curiosity, what actually happens (and what is the timing of those actions) if they don't pay you back?

Haven't found out yet. Kinda hope not too. The lawyer i spoke with a few months ago said i would be looking at $3-5k for the foreclosure process and 3-6 months. Think the deal is that it is put up for auction, we put in a bid for what we are owed + foreclosure/legal expenses and, absent a higher bid, we end up with the property. Any amount over that and the holder of the second gets paid, after the second is paid any excess goes to the third...

Have never gone through a foreclosure process, have only bid , never won, on a couple foreclosure sales, lawyers and those who have better experience know more than i on this matter.

 

[calmloki]

Friday night entertainment: got a call from the small loan broker we have been making property loans through. Seems that he got a notice "to occupant" that his office building (which we loaned money on) is being foreclosed on. Pretty interesting given that we've been the first mortgage holders on the building since 2/2007, have been getting our 10% interest payments on a real regular basis, haven't filed foreclosure papers and have had no notice that any other loans were taken out on it. Got in touch with the county clerk and find that a deed was filed with them back in 10/2008 showing our borrower sold the property at that time. Oh really?! We have a due on sale clause and haven't been paid off....

Gathered our documents together and will be meeting with a lawyer tomorrow - he's indicated it may be to our interest to foreclose & maybe bid to buy the property. Sort of thing that perks up a dozy afternoon.

Must be property time is in the stars for us: this possible foreclosure; have an accepted offer on our rental that was for sale (inspections to be done on Tuesday); and we are off to 29 Palms Ca on Wednesday to spend a week with the gal's Mom and look at some little rental houses to buy and put under management - property values are pretty down in the desert but the rental market is strong. Could be we could buy two places for the same money as the Monmouth rental house and get => return even if someone else manages them. Can't have TheFed having all the fun.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

How can the property be sold without you being paid off as the first mortgage holder? I would have your attorney contact the Title Insurance Company that handled the closing. Why go the foreclosure route. That's what title insurance is for--to insure clear title in the sale of property. Apparently this didn't happen.

 

[calmloki]

How can the property be sold without you being paid off as the first mortgage holder? I would have your attorney contact the Title Insurance Company that handled the closing. Why go the foreclosure route. That's what title insurance is for--to insure clear title in the sale of property. Apparently this didn't happen.

Very good question, and one that leapt to my gals lip's right off the bat! Our borrower had bought another place and i think had pledged our property as security. My fantasy is that our borrower sold our property to a friend or relative sans title company with the intent of paying off the other place and continuing to make payments on our loan. Would have gotten him down the road a few more years till our loan balloon came up. But that's a few years from now, and if things turned around all would be well and no one the wiser.

I don't know though, as a foreclosure action has been started - feel pretty secure though, which is more than i can say about my Bank of America stock adventures.....

 

[ERD50]

Gathered our documents together and will be meeting with a lawyer tomorrow - he's indicated it may be to our interest to foreclose & maybe bid to buy the property.

Why would you bid to buy the property that you own? I'm no lawyer, but that would appear to me to be an admission that you don't own it.

I can't recall ever bidding to buy something that I already held the title to. What am I missing?


-ERD50

 

[calmloki]

Why would you bid to buy the property that you own? I'm no lawyer, but that would appear to me to be an admission that you don't own it.

I can't recall ever bidding to buy something that I already held the title to. What am I missing?


-ERD50

I don't speak fluent legalese, but my current understanding is that the deed of trust only secures my interest, so I say, through the lawyer; "hey - you've violated the terms of the contract - i call all sums due right now, including legal fees". If the borrower pays up he gets the deed of trust and i walk away, contract paid in full. If he doesn't, I have the right, with the deed of trust, to sell the property to recover what is due me and make myself whole. The first bid on the property is mine, in the amount due me including all legal fees. If no one bids a higher amount i own the property.

If someone bids a higher amount i can bid against them if i chose, if i don't chose to outbid them they pay me my due and the remainder goes to the holders of the second, then third position loan holders, if there are any, then remainder to the borrower.

Another option is for the borrower to avoid foreclosure by signing over any interest he might have in the property - think that's called a deed in lieu of foreclosure.

Lawyer types feel free to correct me - figure i'll know more tomorrow after we meet with a lawyer.

 

[canadianteddy]

Interesting thread that I just came upon.

This sort of investing has occured in Canada for many years & I am only familiar with the canadian version of legalese regarding mortgage holdings etc.

I know that many, many years ago realtors and agents were the first to become involved in mortgage lending (and today also). In bad times it occured as follows (in order to make the sale & commission):

Agent would sell a house for $100,000

(Back then) Purchaser would need 25% down (lending practices were different "in the dark ages") if the purchaser did not quite have the $25,000 to put down on the house then the agent would "leave in" his commission.

Agents commissions were $6,000.00. Agent would leave his commission in as a 2nd mortgage & receive monthly payments.

If default occured agent would own a home under "Power of Sale" valued at $100,000 of which $75,000.00 was owing. As long as he/she was able to carry the 1st mortgage until it was sold (thereby earing commission again) everything was OK

If the home remained unsold the property could be rented out until market recovery and a profit (hopefully) made.

Many fortunes in our city were made in that very manner.

Market familiarity is key in this type of investing. Principal may be lost but we have seen this occur in the stock market. At least some semblance of control is maintained in this type of investing.

Again it is risk vs reward. You must always mentally be prepared to take over the property and either sell or rent it as the market dictates. 1st mortgages yield a lower rate of return, but the risk is lower.

Commercial and rental properties are always a higher risk for various reasons. If you were to lend on such a property blanket securities lower the risk (ie - a mortgage is placed on the commercial property - a blanket security is taken on another property (preferably primary residence) if funds are not fully recovered on the 1st property then the second is sold.

Mortgage vehicle are often available thru mortgage brokers, realtors and lawyers in Canada.

Long winded post, it's just something I am familiar with

 

[calmloki]

Ok, information for those who might end up in our situation. We loaned money on a place, had a title search and filed the Trust Deed that secured our interest. We are in first position on the subject property. Borrower took out a second (at least) and/or sold the property without informing us and in violation of our due on sale clause. Company X holds the second for a large amount (think our property was a "blanket security" as in Canadianteddy's post above: "If you were to lend on such a property blanket securities lower the risk (ie - a mortgage is placed on the commercial property - a blanket security is taken on another property ... if funds are not fully recovered on the 1st property then the second is sold"). Company X has filed foreclosure papers. So.

The lawyer we spoke with today says we could foreclose, but Compay X's foreclosure will take place first as they filed first and there is a court mandated 180 day proceedure - when they foreclose we can insist on being paid off, and foreclose to enforce that, or we can let the new buyer continue making the loan payments and complete the contract (balloon payment in full due 2/2010). The fact that the borrower took out loans on the property without our consent doesn't seem to be very exciting as our interest in the property remains in first position regardless. Am having the lawyer call Company X's lawyer to find out their interest in the other property and the order of sale of the foreclosed property (ies). Going to see if they might want to bump up our interest rate for the remaining year to keep me from filing foreclosure papers - also see if we are in a good position to buy the secured property with our loan amount plus a small amount.

Takeaway from experience so far: title insurance & search is good. Filing ASAP is very good. Statements on a contract don't mean all one might think they mean. Kinda like 24 hour notice for you landlords in the group who have filed eviction papers based on a 24 hour notice. and weeks later your tenant is still happily living in the apartment.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

Ok, information for those who might end up in our situation. We loaned money on a place, had a title search and filed the Trust Deed that secured our interest. We are in first position on the subject property. Borrower took out a second (at least) and/or sold the property without informing us and in violation of our due on sale clause. Company X holds the second for a large amount (think our property was a "blanket security" as in Canadianteddy's post above: "If you were to lend on such a property blanket securities lower the risk (ie - a mortgage is placed on the commercial property - a blanket security is taken on another property ... if funds are not fully recovered on the 1st property then the second is sold"). Company X has filed foreclosure papers. So.

The lawyer we spoke with today says we could foreclose, but Compay X's foreclosure will take place first as they filed first and there is a court mandated 180 day proceedure - when they foreclose we can insist on being paid off, and foreclose to enforce that, or we can let the new buyer continue making the loan payments and complete the contract (balloon payment in full due 2/2010). The fact that the borrower took out loans on the property without our consent doesn't seem to be very exciting as our interest in the property remains in first position regardless. Am having the lawyer call Company X's lawyer to find out their interest in the other property and the order of sale of the foreclosed property (ies). Going to see if they might want to bump up our interest rate for the remaining year to keep me from filing foreclosure papers - also see if we are in a good position to buy the secured property with our loan amount plus a small amount.

Takeaway from experience so far: title insurance & search is good. Filing ASAP is very good. Statements on a contract don't mean all one might think they mean. Kinda like 24 hour notice for you landlords in the group who have filed eviction papers based on a 24 hour notice. and weeks later your tenant is still happily living in the apartment.

As I said in my first post, you are in the drivers seat. Has to be! You can just about make any demands within reason. Like you mentioned, a higher interest rate. Might also demand more security (little bit of cash up front).

 

[canadianteddy]

Within the canadian system, if a second mortgagee files a "Power of Sale" action (which is different from foreclosure in that it is accomplished within a shorter time frame, usually 45 days, and title is not transfered), then often the 1st mortgagee (which is you) sits back and waits for a reasonable amount of time for the property to be sold to collect money on their first mortgage.

All the "fuss" and legalese is accomplished on your behalf by the second mortgagee.

Property taxes are always paid first,

Condo fees always paid second (if their are any)

1st mortgagee paid next

2nd mortgagee etc then paid.

The first mortgagee is entitled to be paid their interest due from when default occurs until the funds are repaid (which is added on to the amount collected when the property is sold.)

Further, all expenses incurred by the first mortgagee are also due. Often, within the first mortgage documents it is stipulated that the 1st mortgagee is entitled to things as follows:

$500.00 for attendance of any default proceedings (which can even mean picking up the phone to deal with stuff)

$1000 for attempting to take possession after default etc. etc.

Depending upon the familiarity of the lawyer to such private mortgage contracts, these additional stipulations may or may not have been included. It should be your right to request these and other stipulations.

As a first mortgagee, we can also state in the first mortgage document that a second mortgage may not be placed on the property without written permission from the 1st mortgagee.

If you think the property is worth it, I certainly would consider extending the mortgage to the new purchasers.

Further, I believe that you may or may not have understood the concept of a blanket security. It is as follows:

I place $100,000 first mtg on 123 Main Street

I also place a blanket security on 234 Jones street which is the owner's principal residence.

Default occurs on 123 Main Street. My expenses and mortgage due are $125,000 after the sale of 123 Main Street.

I am $25,000 short. I then recover the balance of funds by selling 234 Jones Street

Hope this info may be helpful and transferable.

 

[canadianteddy]

Also - Title searches are a must - We also have something called Title Insurance - u may want to explore that

Requesting that searches for outstanding work orders is a good idea and should be satisfied prior to advancing fuds.

 

[calmloki]

... the 1st mortgagee (which is you) sits back and waits for a reasonable amount of time for the property to be sold to collect money on their first mortgage.

All the "fuss" and legalese is accomplished on your behalf by the second mortgagee.
...
Further, all expenses incurred by the first mortgagee are also due. Often, within the first mortgage documents it is stipulated that the 1st mortgagee is entitled to things as follows:

$500.00 for attendance of any default proceedings (which can even mean picking up the phone to deal with stuff)

$1000 for attempting to take possession after default etc. etc.

Depending upon the familiarity of the lawyer to such private mortgage contracts, these additional stipulations may or may not have been included. It should be your right to request these and other stipulations.

As a first mortgagee, we can also state in the first mortgage document that a second mortgage may not be placed on the property without written permission from the 1st mortgagee.

If you think the property is worth it, I certainly would consider extending the mortgage to the new purchasers.

Further, I believe that you may or may not have understood the concept of a blanket security. It is as follows:

I place $100,000 first mtg on 123 Main Street

I also place a blanket security on 234 Jones street which is the owner's principal residence.

Default occurs on 123 Main Street. My expenses and mortgage due are $125,000 after the sale of 123 Main Street.

I am $25,000 short. I then recover the balance of funds by selling 234 Jones Street

Hope this info may be helpful and transferable.

Thanks - assuming you actually meant $25,000 in the bolded area above i think i have it and think that is just what's happening - It's not clear to me that there is a required order of sale in my case - my borrower may have borrowed on 123 Main and 234 Jones. Guess i'll find out more in the coming week. My lawyer, by the way, has his law degree from Alberta - was telling me that only Canada and Australia have their particular property laws, different in some respects, perhaps better, than the rest of the world.

As far as sitting back, lettting the holder of the second do the foreclosure work and then extending the loan offer to a new buyer or get paid off, yup, sounds like what my lawyer said. I will ask about the US analogue to the Canadian stipulations you mentioned - just as soon have someone else pick up the cost of the lawyer visit yesterday and our time - lawyer said there wasn't a direct way of passing the bill along if i let someone else do the foreclosure, but if i can get (over)paid for performing some other act.... Default interest on the second for the last 3 months is charged at 21%! Sharks in the water and I smell blood!


Yes, we also have title insurance as well as the title search and i agree - quite necessary.

 

[Hal3]

CDO - It's not just for Wall Street anymore!

I agree diversification is my concern also. It would be nice if some enterprising firm took a bunch of these loans of a similar nature packaged them together and sold them to individual investors, that way if one failed I wouldn't have to forclose and risk losing $120,000. Basically bundle a bunch of debt obligations back with collateral, or a security backed by mortgages. They'd need a catchy name, can anybody think of one?

I think they are called Collateralized Debt Obligations!

The fun part is you can dump in lot's if skanky debt, leverage them to the moon, make billions, and the taxpayers will bail everyone out in the end when the whole thing collapses!

I'm in!!

 

[calmloki]

I think they are called Collateralized Debt Obligations!

The fun part is you can dump in lot's if skanky debt, leverage them to the moon, make billions, and the taxpayers will bail everyone out in the end when the whole thing collapses!

I'm in!!

Here you go Hal:

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/and-now-for-something-completely-different-43044.html

Except for the part where there are a group of investors, and the leveraging part, and the taxpayer bailout, oh, and the make billions and collapse part, I can see this. Sort of like Oriental carpets used to be sold: by the bale. Buyers didn't pay much for a bale of rugs, there would be some absolute junk, a lot of normal rugs, and a few OMG hidden gems. Fun. Profitable. Maybe like buying a pack of trading cards?

 

[Hal3]

Each sightholder is given a box of diamonds.

Except for the part where there are a group of investors, and the leveraging part, and the taxpayer bailout, oh, and the make billions and collapse part, I can see this.

Those are the best parts!
The carpet thing reminds me of when I used to collect stamps as a kid and buy bags of "unsorted" stamps with the promise of undiscovered valuable stamps in the bag. Same with bags of old coins. I guess it is an age-old scam. I understand that is how DeBeers wholesales diamonds.

"DeBeers sells these rough diamonds to approximately 80 "sightholders" (generally, major diamond cutting firms) which are the only companies authorized to buy rough diamonds directly from DeBeers. The sightholders are invited to attend a "sight" held at DeBeers Central Selling Organization in London, England approximately ten times a year (acceptance of the invitation is mandatory). Each sightholder is given a box of diamonds. The price of the diamonds is fixed by DeBeers and is not subject to negotiation."

DeBeers

 

[JOHNNIE36]

Hope "title search" and "title insurance" don't confuse people. In the old days, the sale of property might include going to an attorney and have him do a search of the title. All this involves is reviewing the history of the property and determining if there are any liens outstanding. The attorney put his stamp of approval on the search and that was conveyed to the purchaser. If someone comes along later and has a claim on that property, you'd have to go back on the attorney and sue him. The new method is to purchase "title insurance" whereby you own a policy to guarantee you clear title (generally paid for by the seller). The seller is giving you this insurance policy to guarantee that the property is free from all encumbrances.

 

[canadianteddy]

Hope "title search" and "title insurance" don't confuse people. In the old days, the sale of property might include going to an attorney and have him do a search of the title. All this involves is reviewing the history of the property and determining if there are any liens outstanding. The attorney put his stamp of approval on the search and that was conveyed to the purchaser. If someone comes along later and has a claim on that property, you'd have to go back on the attorney and sue him. The new method is to purchase "title insurance" whereby you own a policy to guarantee you clear title (generally paid for by the seller). The seller is giving you this insurance policy to guarantee that the property is free from all encumbrances.

I would consider both manditory requirements prior to advancing funds under a mortgage.

Also, calmloki, if this is the type of investment you are considering in the future, I'd be happy to pass on the aquired knowlege I've obtained, if u think it would be helpful or transferable. Been involved it this sort of stuff for about 25 yrs.

 

[calmloki]

I would consider both manditory requirements prior to advancing funds under a mortgage.

Also, calmloki, if this is the type of investment you are considering in the future, I'd be happy to pass on the aquired knowlege I've obtained, if u think it would be helpful or transferable. Been involved it this sort of stuff for about 25 yrs.

Sure, appreciate it! We've only done maybe a half dozen property loans in the last 5 years, a fair amount of buying & selling our own rental property, but this is our first loan or property sale that is going bad. Always room to learn!

Trying to have this thread be a source of information for how funding private property loans work out for any who want to consider them as an income source. My experience is very limited, but figure posting successes, failures, glitches and gotchas may be helpful to someone who's thinking about trying this.

 

[Martha]

I don't speak fluent legalese, but my current understanding is that the deed of trust only secures my interest, so I say, through the lawyer; "hey - you've violated the terms of the contract - i call all sums due right now, including legal fees". If the borrower pays up he gets the deed of trust and i walk away, contract paid in full. If he doesn't, I have the right, with the deed of trust, to sell the property to recover what is due me and make myself whole. The first bid on the property is mine, in the amount due me including all legal fees. If no one bids a higher amount i own the property.

If someone bids a higher amount i can bid against them if i chose, if i don't chose to outbid them they pay me my due and the remainder goes to the holders of the second, then third position loan holders, if there are any, then remainder to the borrower.

Another option is for the borrower to avoid foreclosure by signing over any interest he might have in the property - think that's called a deed in lieu of foreclosure.

Lawyer types feel free to correct me - figure i'll know more tomorrow after we meet with a lawyer.

You got it. The first mortgage/deed of trust holder often bids the amount of the debt to them. They don't have to come up with cash to bid. If an outsider bids, they will need cash. Junior lenders can also foreclose but they get the property subject to the first lien if they bid their debt. There usually is a redemption period before or after the sale, depending on the state, where the borrower has the opportunity to pay off the debt.

So I take it there is a junior lien holder? Maybe contact them and see if they are going to pay you off? Otherwise, to get rid of the secondary liens you have to foreclose them out.

 

[Hal3]

Trying to have this thread be a source of information for how funding private property loans work out for any who want to consider them as an income source. My experience is very limited, but figure posting successes, failures, glitches and gotchas may be helpful to someone who's thinking about trying this.

I did this once with some raw land that I owned outright. I guess this is more like seller financing although the principle is the same. It worked out very well for us. We earned much more than we would have earned selling for cash or a buyer/bank financed loan and putting the money into CD's.

I had no concern about the raw land being in the buyers possession. He intended to build on the land and eventually did. He had excellent credit so I had no worries about him making payments.

We had the payments go to a bank that handled them for us and kept track of the interest and principle for a small fee.

Of course we had an attorney draw up the paperwork.

So .. there are fees and expenses but we still came out way ahead.

We did get enough down payment to pay the tax on the gains but that is another issue.

 

[canadianteddy]

When doing such mortgages we always personally inspect the properties and make effort to meet with the borrowers. This gives us a good indication of value. That may be simplistic starting point but essential.

Often times we also request an appraisal of the property which is a cost to the borrower. Any costs to draw up legal papers are also a cost to the borrower and is indicated in writing prior to proceeding with the loan. Further, all discharge costs are also the responsibility of the borrower.

Any terms and conditions of the mortgage such as a 3 month pre penalty clause, charges for NSF cheques, attendance for insurance issues and many other clauses are laid out in the beginning. Cost for foreclosure proceedings are also indicated and added to the ultimate payout should the loan go bad.

Make sure you as the lender are named on insurance policies.

Just some things we do. Hopefully this is helpful and the kind of info u may be looking for.

If such legalese is dealt with in the beginning, should the property proceed to forecloser then the ending process is less stressful.

Bookeeping, on a simple spreadsheet is not hard either.

 

[calmloki]

Yesterday the property loan that was the subject of the first post in this thread paid off. The original borrowers refinanced. Worked out OK - 15 months of regular 10% income. Took the check right over to our local bank and deposited it so we wouldn't lose out on the .07% rate they are paying. Not going to race to move it to Capitol One with it's 2% rate - looking for other lending or buying opportunities in the area.

The loan that is being foreclosed by the second mortgage holder continues to pay us as agreed, which i hope means they don't plan to lose it. Sent off $170 to the lawyer who advised us to sit tight and let the second mortgage holder do the heavy lifting - looked at the building the mortgage is on when we were picking up the above check - starting to need paint, but a good place and location.

Coincidentally, the little rental house we thought we had sold isn't - between realtor fees, seller to buyer closing contributions, and an open-ended price from a contractor to do repairs it turned into a bad deal. Current plan is to have a contractor we know do repairs on the inspection report and see if we can't find our own buyer - shaping up to be a lovely spring here in Oregon. Funny that the sale asking price is very close to the amount of the loan that just paid off and that the selling is a much bigger PITA.

Day before yesterday we drove up to Detroit Lake in the mountains to look at a lending opportunity - an older double wide - decided against loaning on it, but had a nice drive & lunch. Day before went to Amity to look at another deal, which, again was just a good reason to take a nice drive and lunch. Guessing we look at maybe 8 deals or so to for every one we do.