heating bills

[Danny]

If she does a good job, I let her make a snow angel afterward. Sometimes I help.

--Greg

How many angels do you make....oh I think I understand what you said...

 

[TargaDave]

First job out of grad school was Owens-Corning and got some decent experience on myths about heat loss. A memory now but here are some highlights:

Set back thermostats are obvious but window-door replacement versus other things to do is not so obvious.

Air infiltration is usually the biggest culprit. R40 walls and gas back-filled low E glass won't do didly without a properly sealed house, especially if your winters have much wind. Ceilings and basements often have more convective losses than leaks around windows and doors, which most people don't realize. A blower door test is a great way to find out. Here is a DOE link that might help:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/weatherization/wxtech_blower_door.html

Some other good links on the site. I'm sure there is other info out there. I built a superinsulated home back in NY in 1988 (about a third of it myself). R40walls/R60ceilings with thermal breaks, Techy glass, sealed to less than something like 1/15th air change/hr, special heat exchange unit to get controlled air changes, ultra-efficiency furnace, and a whole house humidifier and air-filtration. Sounds complex but not that difficult to do on new home construction. Heating-cooling bill was next to nothing and you didn't have to do the whole solar orientation thing. Very comfortable house. I suspect this technology will come back into vogue. The Swedes have been building like this for decades.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Dang it you guys - mine's, only 5.5 incheshp - my wife calls it Toro, I  call it my little friend.....You guys must really get a lot of throw with your equipment. I have to eventually shovel the top of the snowbanks in a good snow year inorder to continue clearing....
Greg - it's cool when the world comes to a stop after a really good snow...kids listening to the radio for school closings and me for work closing...well, not anymore 
SteveR - 120 feet? Man you need a plow!

I have not owned a snowblower since 1997. Don't plan to buy another.
Just drive over it with 4 X 4s. Mother Nature put it there and she will
take it away. Worked every time so far. Snowblower?............
We don't need no stiiiiiiinking snowblower

JG

 

[MJ]

Why? I have radiator heat and I use a honeywell programable thermostat. It works pretty well.
--MJ

Our old house only has insulation in the attic. The walls are about 12-14 inch thick brick with no insulation. I had the energy guy from the power company visit us when we first moved here. He said the same thing others have said, a programable thermostat basically won't save much, if any, money in our zone. I did caulk all the windows. You are basically fighting a battle about six inches deep in the brick, keeping the inside bricks warm. On a very cold night, if I turned down the heat at about 9PM, it would need to come back on about 2-3AM in order to rewarm the house by 6AM. He said it wasn't worth the time and effort to fiddle around learning different timing patterns dependent on differing temperatures. He said just try to lower the temp by one or two degrees and adjust your expectations. I'm still working on the DW's expectations. I now have a serious pocketbook argument.

--Greg

I got it.
Although my timing is different, I have the same problem. Since I have a 2 fam house, I can't lower the temp without my tenant complaining. I don't mind fidling with the thermostat to get the best efficiency. I hope I am saving some money.

 

[Niko]

I am really cheap when it comes to heating the house.

I haven't turned my heater on for three years. I find that my electric bill is just about the same each month of the year: low. Granted, I lived in Oregon, where it doesn't get nearly as cold as much of the rest of the country.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I got it.
Although my timing is different, I have the same problem. Since I have a 2 fam house, I can't lower the temp without my tenant complaining. I don't mind fidling with the thermostat to get the best efficiency. I hope I am saving some money.

Those multi-family units with one thermostat are murder.  I once tried to buy a 16 unit (Man, it was beautiful) where the live-in manager
had control of the heat for the entire building.  Sometimes in the winter
a tenant or several might think it was too hot.  Their solution was to just open their patio doors.  As I recall that is what mainly scared me
off.

Closer to home, DW used to live in a 5 unit she owned with a former
SO.  Like me, he tried to make it until Thanksgiving before turning on the heat.  She would secretly ask a tenant to complain which usually
did the trick  

JG

 

[astromeria]

In our ~2500 sq ft house with electric heat pump in coastal South Carolina, we average $120/month for electricity (till now-). Worst month was one January ~$180. Worst summer month was $145. We like to sleep in a cool room, so set the temp at night to 75 in summer and 60 in winter. In the daytime, normally 76 in summer and 68 in winter. I'm home most of the time so we didn't bother getting programmable thermostats. We also use our ceiling fans much of the time in summer. The house is 3 years old and pretty well insulated and tight.

We used to live in a San Francisco condo. Basically, air conditioning meant open the windows and heating meant close the windows

 

[KB]

I'm in California and it rarely gets below the high 30s in the winter here; more like the low 40s.

My house is 1.5 years old and I had extra insulation added when it was built. I think it's paying off too.
So far I'm averaging 102.00 a month for both natural gas and electric. The gas is about 40 of that but it includes the heater, hot water heater, clothes dryer and cooking gas.

I keep the heat about 70 in the winter and the air condition at 78 or higher in the summer.

I shut off the heater/cooler at night and turn on in the morning if it's needed. Does this actually put a greater strain on the system than programming it to stay within certain temperatures? I've wondered if it would be more efficient to program it.

 

[greg]

I'm in California and it rarely gets below the high 30s in the winter here; more like the low 40s.

My house is 1.5 years old and I had extra insulation added when it was built. I think it's paying off too.
So far I'm averaging 102.00 a month for both natural gas and electric. The gas is about 40 of that but it includes the heater, hot water heater, clothes dryer and cooking gas.

I keep the heat about 70 in the winter and the air condition at 78 or higher in the summer.

I shut off the heater/cooler at night and turn on in the morning if it's needed. Does this actually put a greater strain on the system than programming it to stay within certain temperatures? I've wondered if it would be more efficient to program it.

I'm certainly not an expert but . . . . If you have a forced air system which I assume you have, you really don't have too much to worry about other than the cycling electric motor. Too much cycling may wear your motor out early, but I think that they are built to last for quite a while. Most fridges, which have a smaller motor and cycle on-off quite a bit, often last more than ten years. The forced air motors are the sacrificial part of your furnace/air conditioner--most likely to wear out first. I suspect you should probably just keep doing what you've done in the past. A programable thermostat, to my mind and in your case, adds an unjustifiable new complexity of replacing your current thermostat, programing it, and monitoring the batteries that it requires. Given a clear and simple choice, I like to fiddle manually as need be rather than having things on automatic. 8) Don't forget to oil your motor at least once/year. Too many people forget to do this and--I think--burn out their motors way too early. Now is the time.

--Greg

 

[Brat]

Sealed buildings are great BUT you need to watch humidity.  A building needs to breathe OUT to expire the moisture generated by heating and human occupation.  Failure to account for that is the primary cause of the dry rot many are seeing in buildings (and perhaps contributing to molds).

Hubby and I had a condo in Sunriver (near Bend, OR) before the micoporus membranes for construction were developed.  The weather there is very cold in the winter, warm and dry in the summer.  It had an appliance that de-humidified in the winter, humidified in the summer. 

 

[KB]

Thanks Greg..

I actually have a programmable thermostat, but I don't like the heat to turn on until I wake up. It wakes me up.
Same with going to bed, I turn it off when I go to bed which can be different times every day. During the day I do use the thermostat though.

I'll have to look for a battery. For some reason I thought it was hard wired...

 

[Dreamer]

We had an oversized 2 car garage added to the back of our house and my spouse spends quite a bit of time there. He has a wall mounted gas heater which he likes to keep on throughout the winter. I do not like it to be on when he is not in the garage, because I do not completely trust the thing and I am afraid that it will catch the house on fire somehow. He keeps his 72 corvette parked in it and says that he has to leave the heat on because it is fiberglass and it would be bad for it to be kept in the cold. I don't know about these things. Is he pulling my chain or is he correct?

Also, I have been afraid to turn the thermostat down too low in the house because of our 5 cats. I normally turn the thermostat to 66 at night and while we are gone. How cold is too cold for cats? If they were to get sick, vet bills are definitely not cheap!

Dreamer

 

[HFWR]

They only need batteries to retain settings in memory during a power outage.

 

[kowski]

Sounds like many of you need to consider the snow/bird thing.  We just bought a second home in Central Florida.  Closed the house in Michigan, blew out the pipes and left.  Weather was 85 here today.   8)

 

[greg]

Dang it you guys - mine's, only 5.5 incheshp - my wife calls it Toro, I call it my little friend.....You guys must really get a lot of throw with your equipment. I have to eventually shovel the top of the snowbanks in a good snow year inorder to continue clearing....
Greg - it's cool when the world comes to a stop after a really good snow...kids listening to the radio for school closings and me for work closing...well, not anymore
SteveR - 120 feet? Man you need a plow!

Dan: It sounds like you only have a one-stage thrower. You need the two-stage(w/ an impeller) to really get the distance. I really like all the little motorized thingys sometimes. If they could put some sort of doo-hicky gas motor on a toilet seat, that might be heaven.

You're right about the nicest part of winter being after a big snow fall: Hardly a sound or movement outside, and when someone does walk by all you hear is the crunch of snow. No harshness at all.

--Greg

 

[SteveR]

Dang it you guys - mine's, only 5.5 incheshp - my wife calls it Toro, I  call it my little friend.....You guys must really get a lot of throw with your equipment. I have to eventually shovel the top of the snowbanks in a good snow year inorder to continue clearing....
Greg - it's cool when the world comes to a stop after a really good snow...kids listening to the radio for school closings and me for work closing...well, not anymore 
SteveR - 120 feet? Man you need a plow!

Plow won't work ...no place to move it too once you have 4-5 foot piles around the driveway. A blower is the only way to move it out of the way. Otherwise, Ica n't get my truck off the road and it is only one lane wide. No snowblower means no access without a snowmobile...mine is in the cabin so I have to get there first.

Greg....snow angels gets to be pretty interesting in 8 feet of power snow. They would not find you until spring.

 

[Lancelot]

First job out of grad school was Owens-Corning and got some decent experience on myths about heat loss.  A memory now but here are some highlights:

Set back thermostats are obvious  but window-door replacement versus other things to do is not so obvious.

Air infiltration is usually the biggest culprit.  R40 walls and gas back-filled low E glass won't do didly without a properly sealed house, especially if your winters have much wind. Ceilings and basements often have more convective losses than leaks around windows and doors, which most people don't realize.  A blower door test is a great way to find out.  Here is a DOE link that might help:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/weatherization/wxtech_blower_door.html

Some other good links on the site.  I'm sure there is other info out there.  I built a superinsulated home back in NY in 1988 (about a third of it myself).  R40walls/R60ceilings with thermal breaks, Techy glass, sealed to less than something like 1/15th air change/hr, special heat exchange unit to get controlled air changes, ultra-efficiency furnace, and a whole house humidifier and air-filtration.     Sounds complex but not that difficult to do on new home construction.  Heating-cooling bill was next to nothing and you didn't have to do the whole solar orientation thing. Very comfortable house.  I suspect this technology will come back into vogue.  The Swedes have been building like this for decades.

Dave is 100% correct; seal up the infiltration first because it offers the best payback.

Most heating/supply duct systems leak, sealing the leaks can help quite a bit.

Set-back thermostats do save money.

Electric water heater timers can help reduce standby losses. Mosy electric water heaters have no bottom insulation. Setting the tank on a one inch base of styrofoam will also reduce standby losses. DON'T SET A GAS WATER HEATER ON STYROFOAM!

Lance

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Sounds like many of you need to consider the snow/bird thing.  We just bought a second home in Central Florida.  Closed the house in Michigan, blew out the pipes and left.  Weather was 85 here today.   8)

I had a sharp "contractor type" out here the other day to discuss
what to do when we head south. Blowing out the pipes was one option, and I suppose the safest as this place is not well
insulated. In fact, before I bought it, frozen pipes was one of the
major worries (turned out to be a non-issue). Anyway, my choices are

1. Blowing out all the pipes

2. Moving the thermostat so as to heat only those parts of the house that need heat (removes about 25% of floor space).

3. Turning the heat down a bit and hoping for the best.

Numbers 2 and 3 would include sealing all cracks and drafts.
Number seems the most fool-proof.

We're only going for 2 months this year. Any thoughts?

JG

 

[Martha]

John, I take it that you can't simply drain the system and need to "blow" the pipes out. I am not sure why you can just drain the system via gravity and then put rv anitfreeze in the P-traps. Do you have your own well? The big problem is getting all the water out of the pump if it is above frost level--whether you drain out or blow out your pipes.

I would move the thermostat to an area that needs heating and close off the rest of the house.

 

[pbrane]

Regarding leaving a house empty for extended periods in the winter (in Wisconsin in my case), I've never done it for more than a few weeks in the past, but am contemplating it this year -maybe for a month or more. I've always wondered what would happen if I drained the pipes etc. and turned the heat (almost) off. Wouldn't there be risk of condensation or walls cracking or (?) or am I just a world-champion worrier (yes). I do know that my insurance company only covers "accidents" during vacations of one month or less. And I guess some policies don't even cover loss from water leaks when you're gone. Makes you feel real good.

-m

 

[TargaDave]

Sealed buildings are great BUT you need to watch humidity. A building needs to breathe OUT to expire the moisture generated by heating and human occupation. Failure to account for that is the primary cause of the dry rot many are seeing in buildings (and perhaps contributing to molds).

Hubby and I had a condo in Sunriver (near Bend, OR) before the micoporus membranes for construction were developed. The weather there is very cold in the winter, warm and dry in the summer. It had an appliance that de-humidified in the winter, humidified in the summer.

I guess I am a bit confused on the winter out there because cold temps reduce water vapor content of air drastically. We run dehimidifiers or AC in warmer weather when the RH (relative humidity) is high, and humidifiers in the winter when it's pretty dry.

Air barriers on the cold side of the envelope are designed to trap air but let water vapor through while plastic barriers (or kraft paper) on the warm side of the envelope seal both air and water vapor from getting to cold side. Water vapor getting into cold areas from the warm side of the envelope condenses and creates a mess. That was a problem with early synthetic stuccos, because the exterior polymer coating inadvertently sealed water vapor from the cold side instead of the warm side.

I have never heard of a heating system adding moisture to a house in winter unless it has a built-in humidifier (but then I'm always learning something new). People add moisture but not that much unless the showers run all day and you have lousy bathroom venting. Of course if you have high outdoor humidity levels in the northwest during the winter that could be your real source of humidty in the house (just like the east coast in a rainy warm period) but hard to imagine that with very cold temps. In the northeast you need to add humidity to your house in the winter (just think about dry throats and shrinking flooring and hotel rooms), but you're right in that adding too much moisture will create problems. We kept ours at ~25-30% RH in the winter by running a whole-house humidifier with a humidistat but remember that depends on proper water vapor sealing on the warm side and a well insulated home. You could have perfect vapor barriers on the warm side, but 25% RH on a 10 deg F day with single pane glass will create a dripping mess. A well insulated house that is properly sealed for air infiltration and water vapor containment, needs air changes for air quality not to reduce moisture buildup.

Cntrolling humidity in a house has always been trickier than controlling heat loss but it makes a huge difference in comfort and still costs energy $ to do.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I would move the thermostat to an area that needs heating and close off the rest of the house. 

That's what I think we will do. I never drained the pipes before and it sounds complicated. Plus I was told that we need to "blow out the
water" (we have our own well, pump, etc) this implies pressure.
And, I do know enough to know that pressure alone will not empty
every nook and cranny, thus some draining required. If we ever
go south for the whole "season" maybe I will study this more closely.

JG

 

[greg]

JG: Winterizing is all a matter of juggling risks. If your outside temps won't fall below say 20 degrees over the next two months and you have cast iron water pipes, then you could easily risk not completely draining, or blowing out the system. A little unpressurized ice in the pipes shouldn't crack them. The serious damage usually occurs when the ice gets down to -20 and has no where to expand except against the pipe walls. PVC or copper pipes are more fragile. Walk thru your system and imagine each possibility at each temperature change before deciding what's needed. You still need to think about the water pump, which is loaded with more delicate parts, and the hot water heater. Good luck.

--Greg

 

[Martha]

Regarding leaving a house empty for extended periods in the winter (in Wisconsin in my case), I've never done it for more than a few weeks in the past, but am contemplating it this year -maybe for a month or more. I've always wondered what would happen if I drained the pipes etc. and turned the heat (almost) off. Wouldn't there be risk of condensation or walls cracking or (?) or am I just a world-champion worrier (yes). I do know that my insurance company only covers "accidents" during vacations of one month or less. And I guess some policies don't even cover loss from water leaks when you're gone. Makes you feel real good.

-m

We had a log cabin in northern Wisconsin that we winterized when we weren't going to use it for a winter. Drained all the plumbing, including the waterheater, took off the pump, and put rv antifreeze in the p-traps. Turned the heat off entirely. Many of our friends do the same. No problems. The only minor issue was that the cabin had a walkout basement and the basement got quite cold in the winter. This meant it took quite a while to warm up in the spring, which did cause some condensation in the spring from differences in temperature in the basement. Nothing a dehumidifier couldn't cure.

One year we partially winterized. We drained the upstairs plumbing but continued to heat the basement, where we had a second bathroom, and where the waterheater and water pump were located. Kept the heat on at about 45 degrees. No problems at all. Worked nice because it made it easy to visit during the winter.

 

[TromboneAl]

Dreamer, INAV (I'm not a vet) but I'd say you don't have to worry about your cats getting too cold. We've had cats that stay outside at night in the snow. We also had a cat that would climb under our covers and sleep under there (by our feet).

If you have an insulated box somewhere in the house, they could always curl up in there if they were too cold.

I find that the colder it is in the house at night the better we sleep.