help in planing

Well, ed teach, you sound like my kind of guy :)

Between myself, my Dad, and my son, at one time we
could have armed a small country (or at least a
revolution). We all have less firepower now, but still enough. BTW, having lived in Michigan for many years
I was very surprised that CC went through. Very happy to see it although it doesn't help me personally.
I am currently stuck in "gun hater" central.

JG
 
I still go repub. just cant stand the we know best what is good for you, don't cut trees,don't eat meat or wear fur, hunting is bad, and if some one want to rape you call the cops you cant protect yourself, among other crap liberal ideas.

These are not liberal ideas. It is the pablum that GOP has fed you guys, so they can take away your real rights.
 
Handguns are for Hookers and Cops. Real men own rifles - at least thats what my dear old Dad used to say when I was young.

That said - I'm a liberal Democrat with a shotgun, black powder rifle, blackpowrder pistol and a Fenwerkebau 124 air rifle.

And I be the first to admit that many gun control laws are as stupid as the Patriot Act(read dumb and ineffective}. Like the sky marshals after BD Cooper jumped out of the 727 and dented the plane market - hopefully there is a learning curve effect that will improve things over time.

If the D heads in Washington want to do a better job - they should enlist free enterprise - if the credit bueaus and marketing/polictical computers know who I am - why can't those stupid brain dead SOB's in government - after all I held security clearances for over twenty years.

Really a hot button issue with me - my 88 yr old mom went to cash some bonds recently - her drivers license was expired, also her passport and the jerk wad doctor in 1916 Michigan used the Finnish spelling instead of American on her birth certificate. Got them cashed eventually - but what a circle jerk. The shear stupidity of the Patriotic Act - down home and personal. I plan to volunteer next election to get those those brain dead - most of all INcompentant bums out next election. Unless they wise up and subcontract out to free enterprise businesses that know what they are doing.
 
Well, I love handguns in all of their forms and models,
and would feel better if the hookers had more and the cops less. But, I digress :)

Unclemick, if you remove the "braindead dickheads"
they will just be replaced with more "braindead dickheads". That's the way it works.

JG
 
JG

Second cup of coffee - I'm calmer now.  Alas - you're right - bureau -o - cracies have a life of their own.

Having been in large corporate ones (defense contractors) dealing with govt.(NASA), I suppose there are worse ones.

If I lay off the coffee - I'll make curmudgeon before my time. At eleven yrs ER - I get cranky and to think in youth - I probably were one( actually wrote tech spec.'s).
 
I love my handguns also. Especially my colt 45 commander. I have a couple of S&W's. Love my 9/15. I have a ruger 22 to have fun with, and an sks with a 30 shot clip.
Here in the "free" state of Maryland, we cannot legally carry a wepon for self defense. Is it any wonder that Baltimore leds the nation in murders per capita. Thats what we get in a one party demo state.
 
Well cut throat, I have a constitutional right to have and bear arms, the old second amendment, you don't have a constitutional right to fish, not that I want to take fishing rights away, I just think it funny how people are all up to take some ones right away [especially liberals] when it is something they don't care about, then they usually come back with the argument that the founding fathers did not envision ak 47s [I have 2 underfolder and full stock] well that is true, but they also did not envision T.V. movies, and the internet, so if liberals want my gun rights then we can limit the first amendment based on " the founding fathers did not envision" its a bad argument, the other big argument the libs use is the second amendment was for the national guard. this is the most laughable, there was no national guard when the bill of rights was written, and if you read the federalist papers by jay Madison and Hamilton then you will see that the bill of rights in its entirety was a instrument for the individual. classic lib trying to twist thing to their skewed view.
this is by far not the only writings of the founding fathers that show clearly the intent of the second amendment, the only people that say it is not are the libs ike Brady. and he is brain dead, and so is his wife. gun control goes hand in hand with the other big liberal issues, like no cutting in national forests, organic tofu, spotted owl habitat, no nukes, midnight basketball,mama Clinton knows best [it takes a liberal] and kwesie my stomach, the only thing I agree with the dems on is the tax relief for the small guy, but they have left the Truman, Roosevelt way of thinking back in the 60s, now it is the Hollywood elite that runs the show, with idiots like Ted danson, whoopee cushion,and other California nut jobs like phloosie, and fikenstine. you know they loose and loose and loose, and they just don't get it, the have lost mom and pop America, for the black America that wants reparations for slavery [what a crock, how many whites died for there freedom, people who never even owned a slave] and if my history is correct it was the dems, that started the kkk, and it was the rep's that fought to free the slaves in the first place, this is why for so many years the south was a dem strong hold.
now the south has learned that the dems do not have their best interest at heart, they are now the old 60's hate America and blame America first.
I am an atheist and do not agree with the rep's on every issue, but I sure think that they are the lesser of the two evils.
 
Sigh ! - ::)

Brady worked for Reagan. Liberals do not want to take your guns.

Don't you think it would be nice to be an environmentalist, so that you had a place to hunt instead of the Wall Mart Parking Lot? :confused:
 
This liberal -conservative thing is funny. If I remember correctly, before 2004 I only voted for one Democrat in a presidential election. That was JBJ in 1964.

Mostly the pre-Newt Gingrich Republicans didn't require such narrowmindedness to be a Repub. I was wrong about Bush; I voted for him once. But even a long time Republican voter can learn!

I don't like liberals either- they are just as manipulative and controlling as modern Republicans. They don't really like or understand or want to help ordinary people. They condescend to us. I actually heard an NPR broadcast wherein the interviewer was talking to the guy who wrote-I think- "What's Wrong With Kansas?"

They were just chortling and whooping it up aboput how dumb and unwashed the Republican voters are. They actually were discussing what lies Liberal Dems could tell to get elected, which they would just ignore once in power. The only hang-up was that it was feared that they would confuse their usual constiuency, who then might just stay home.

So both sides believe in deliberate lying to gain power.

But this Bush administartion as taken mendacity in the service of power-lust to a whole new level for the USA.

I have 2 sons, and I want both of them to attend my funeral. I think Bush is the biggest risk to that right now, since he appears to want a portfolio of wars. Maybe he figures diversification is good?

Mikey
 
I don't have a problem with guns in general - with one exception....In the great state of Texas, if you own at least 10 acres you can legally shoot (target practice) at anytime. This is fine unless you live next to one of the ignoramuses. I have 40 acres and that is not enough when someone is shooting a 30-06 all damn dat long. What a total pain-in-the-ass. I am in process of buying the 10 acres just to eliminate the problem - I don't really need anymore land (for cattle) but it is cheaper than moving. This is one of those laws that the "good ole boys" who do not want to offend the NRA types - think is OK. I would love for them to have to listen themselves. ::)
 
I have people that live close, so I don't shoot before 9:30 or after 7:00, just good courtesy, as for liberals not wanting to take my guns? wow, you don't know your own party, when Feinstein says if "I had my way I would say mom and pop America, you are going to turn them all in" Schumer, Clinton, Kennedy, the list goes on and on. I don't think I have to work to hard to show that the true end of liberal gun control is to take guns from the "people"
They always start with "its just good commonsense" It is a camels nose under the tent, next thing you know you are sleeping with it.
as far as enviros go, no I don't agree them them, because the movement has been taken over by liberal idiots that are not conservationist's but anti establishment morons.
Greenpeace nuts that spike trees and protest every thing that does not grow on trees, they are radical idiots, and you people that drive SUV's and support the enviro movement, you are part of the problem according to the libs.
If the nut job liberals had their way we would all have bikes and one 40w light bulb. and a herb garden,
live in a commune, I am not so down on the free love, but my wife might not like it.
and we would not be taking the fishes lives, they have rights too. even catch and release is painful to the poor fish.
first it starts with hunting fringes like running bear with dogs, then you cant bait, then before you know it, the puma in California are killing the hikers, and the enviros response? well
"we are in their habitat, we are the invaders" maybe but if I have a ruger 44 mag on my hip, I can crack the dam skull of the puma before he can bit my ass.
 
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!
(Howard Dean-like scream) Go Ed Go!!!! :)

JG
 
Here in the "free" state of Maryland, we cannot legally carry a wepon for self defense. Is it any wonder that Baltimore leds the nation in murders per capita. Thats what we get in a one party demo state.

Well, if you are only going to use the one variable of whether you can carry handguns in public and compare it to the murder rate then the facts say that it doesn't help and in fact makes it worse. Look at countries that have very strict gun control laws such as Japan (or Singapore or Hong Kong) and the murder rate (and in fact overall crime rate is a fraction of any city in the US). So, to use your uni-factor measurement we come to the conclusion that gun control does reduce murder and crime in general.
 
Look at countries that have very strict gun control laws such as Japan (or Singapore or Hong Kong) and the murder rate (and in fact overall crime rate is a fraction of any city in the US).  So, to use your uni-factor measurement we come to the conclusion that gun control does reduce murder and crime in general.

Helloooo When you walk down the street in Baltimore do you notice anything different from when you walk down the street in Singapore?

Mikey
 
Helloooo When you walk down the street in Baltimore do you notice anything different from when you walk down the street in Singapore?

Mikey

A much higher percentage of obese people?
 
Let's talk about the USA where we still have the Second Amendment instead of some leftist "Big Brother"
type countries. I believe that 38 of the 50 states allow concealed carry. I also believe (although I'm too lazy to look it up) that violent crime has declined in virtually
every state that passed it. There is a well researched book "More Guns = Less Crime". I think written by a Florida college professor (pretty amazing). Anyway,
the founders of this country tried to insure we could all be armed if we chose to. The libs never stop attacking
but they haven't gained much ground lately. I'll tell you
honestly. LIberals scare me more than Osama, Iran, Syria and North Korea combined. No contest.

JG
 
Well, if you are only going to use the one variable of whether you can carry handguns in public and compare it to the murder rate then the facts say that it doesn't help and in fact makes it worse.  Look at countries that have very strict gun control laws such as Japan (or Singapore or Hong Kong) and the murder rate (and in fact overall crime rate is a fraction of any city in the US).  So, to use your uni-factor measurement we come to the conclusion that gun control does reduce murder and crime in general.

Obviously blacks commit the vast majority of murders in Maryland. I recently read that if you just count white murder statistics in the US, our murder rate would be the same or lower then the big European democracies. Also one should note that violent crime has been reduced everywhere that liberalized gun carry laws have been enacted. I get my findings from the book "More Guns Less Crime". Maybe you can remember after Florida enacted LCL crimes went up on rental cars. Thats because the criminal knew that people who drove rentals most likely would not be carrying. When the rental license plates were changed to a generic plate, crime dropped.
 
A much higher percentage of obese people?
I knew you could do it! I am proud of you Sonny. Now just to be sure you aren't deliberately stokin" us, why don't you and your lady fair take a nice walk down some random street in Baltimore any night of your choice?

Remember, it is safe- they have gun control!

Mikey
 
This is one of those arguments where everybody already has their minds made up, and will not be confused by the "facts". I say "facts" because what most people have here are opinions but they disguise them as facts.

You can have your own opinions.

You cannot have your own facts.

The constitution is not the be-all, end-all of everything. Its a document that put a framework in place that was to evolve, and it has.

But you cant read a little piece of it and draw your own conclusions. Well you can and a lot of people do, but thats where the problem starts.

The "right to bear arms" was specific and two-fold. Part 1 was that the US is not supposed to have a standing army. Really. The constitution says so. For a large variety of reasons including the cost and the temptation to use it. The founding fathers really wanted us to mind our own business...which is hard to fathom in todays world where we've decided that we are the arbiter of many other countries fates and directions. The first part of the right to bear arms therefore was for the public to be called up to form a militia in times of need. Can you imagine people having a bradley in their garage and an RPG or two in the closet in case we needed to call up the militia? Who gets the f-16 in their back yard? :)

The other reason to maintain guns in the hands of the public was to assure the people could overthrow the government should it become onerous and non representative of the people.

Well, we have a standing army, and its a crime punishable by death to try to overthrow the government. So much for that little part of the constitution. There is absolutely nothing else in the constitution with regards to gun ownership that you can hang your hat on.

So unless you're planning on joining the "militia" or overthrowing the government, you technically have no constitutionally protected right to bear arms.

As far as the rest of it, in countries where broad ownership of guns by the public has never been allowed, there are very few gun deaths (obviously). With a limit on the ability of anyone to harm anyone with very little skill, there is also a lot less violent crime. So the "I need my gun to protect myself, to even the odds" argument doesnt wash.

Our "gun control" here has failed to work, as it has in many other countries, simply because it was ineffective in the first place, and everybody already has ready access to guns with or without the "controls". If you do something that you know isnt going to work and then declare that the effort is not worthwhile because it didnt work, thats not particularly decisive.

As far as the "protecting myself" argument...very few people actually successfully defend themselves with a firearm and/or prevent a crime. The few instances where it does happen are widely publicized. You are far more likely to be killed or have a family member be killed by your gun than you are trying to protect yourself with it. The other humorous and quite true statistic is that the majority of people who face an intruder in their home with a firearm have emptied the gun from a distance of less than 8 feet without even hitting the intruder. Bet thats a fun experience, you with an empty gun and some guy with a load of crap in his underwear.

And no, I'm not a liberal or a demo. I've voted 100% republican, although I frankly do not like what the republican party has become. Its not a party of conservatives who want to support business, limit spending and taxation and keep our noses out of other countries business...which is what being a conservative used to be about. Its a bunch of religious whackos, gun nuts and anti-abortionists. Guess what...none of those were factors in the republican party 50 years ago and prior. Its just about all the party IS about today.

I also dont "hate guns". They have a purpose and many valid uses. I used to teach marksmanship and gun handling to teenagers when I was a camp counsellor many, many years ago.

Thats what I'm not. What I am is a reasonably intellgent person who reads and thinks for himself.

And holy cow are we way off topic on this thread... :p
 
What's really funny is that the Neocons believe that liberals don't like guns! :D

I have owned plenty of guns in my time. I used to hunt a lot also. I also know that the only thing that threatens hunters is a lack of clean air, water and good habitat for wildlife. Not Gun Control!

I have nothing against guns and most liberals don't either. Being a liberal is mostly about believing in freedom.

The GOP just tells you guys that crap, so they can get elected. - And you buy it! - I'm not against guns!

So would you get off the Gun thing? No one is going to take them away.

They are trying to take away your Social Security though, and that is what I be focused on. ;)
 
Obviously blacks commit the vast majority of murders in Maryland.

Why is that obvious?  Is it obvious that they would based on their race?  You're not arguing that the crimes are committed because they are black, are you?

I recently read that if you just count white murder statistics in the US, our murder rate would be the same or lower then the big European democracies.

Did you know that there is a correlation between the shoe size of children and their reading ability?  Of course there isn't a direct causal link but there is a "hidden" variable.  I will suggest that the link between crime and "race" is actually one of crime and poverty.  If you eliminate those at the bottom of the economic ladder (particularly when the disparity in incomes is enormous) that you will skew your statistics in a way that makes you feel warm and fuzzy.

Of course that only counts the crime stats that you want to hear.  It doesn't include the large number of white collar crimes that go without punishment.  It doesn't account for the tendency of the US justice system to look the other way for crimes committed by those who are not a minority (eg. see http://early-retirement.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=misc;action=display;num=1106005087;start=171).  It doesn't account for the fact that those at the bottom of the economic system have fewer resources to defend themselves in the justice system and are more likely to be convicted.

Also one should note that violent crime has been reduced everywhere that liberalized gun carry laws have been enacted.

Actually, violent crime rates have been dropping as the percentage of the male population between 15 and 30 has been dropping.
 
"White collar crime" is an oxymoron.

Now, let's take Martha Stewart.
She did what is done EVERY DAY, millions of time in total.
Who cares? The government and the prosecutors.
Nobody else. This will continue to expand until all
citizens are guilty of crimes. Even you. At that point
it only matters who the authorities choose to come after.

If I ran for office, my platform would include repeal of
The Emancipation Proclamation. I admire LIncoln, but
that was a big mistake.

JG
 
Not going to take our guns away?
Tell it to the people that live in Washington dc, Massachusetts, new York, parts of California,and other places that the liberals have strong control, in dc it is a crime to posses, own, have, any gun, in some of the liberal places it is a crime to own a bb gun. don't even try to tell me that liberals don't want an end to gun ownership. bull crap.
as far as guns make society a more dangerous place, well let me tell you this why is it that in dc where you cant own a gun, gun crime is very high by criminals, but where gun's are prevalent, in Virginia, crime is far less? the libs say dc has high crime because the guns are brought in from places like Virginia, but Virginia has low crime. go figure, Studies indicate that fire arms are used more than 2 million times a year for personal protection, and that the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances. John the bood you refer to is more guns less crime by john R. Lott JR.
He is not a gun nut, but found that when guns are prevalent crime is reduced. I can testify to this, when I lived in Florida, rape went through the roof in Jacksonville, women started to buy hand guns in droves. the local police dept. started a campaign to help by training the women to shoot. Guess what, the rapes dropped 80%, I guess that the perps, did not want a vasectomy with a .38,
And do any of you remember the shootings in fla. involving the tourists? I was in fla. at the time, it was just after the passing of the ccw shall issue. the perps did not want to rob Floridian, they might get a "cap in they ass" so it was safer to hit some mark from Germany or England. they wont have guns.
And as far as crime in places that have curbed gun ownership, the media they ignore real news, such as the tragically instructive stories unfolding in England and Australia, where recently disarmed citizens are being terrorized by violent criminals at rates exceeding ours.
In England a man was recently impression for shooting a burglar for robbing him in his own home at knife point.
this is the road that liberal will take us down, they lie at every turn, try to make people fear that rep's will steal social security, all while letting more Arabs into this county, and slashing the military. liberals? No thanks I say. I will put up with the religious right, who I don't much care for, long before I will put up with a liberal, cutthroat, you say clean air, the air water and land are better today than in any other time in history. there are more deer, fish, trees today than when Columbus landed. and no thanks to liberals, liberals are not conservationists. liberals are the ones in the woods breaking sticks so you cant get a shot at that buck, they are the ones throwing stones in your stream hole to scare that cutthroat, the next time you run into a peta member cut, remember he votes with you, and if we don't stop them, your rights will be lost, because the left [not all but a goodly portion] don't believe in fishing.
so cut, I am fighting for your rights along with my own. no no don't thank me, its a pleasure.
 
What's really funny is that the Neocons believe that liberals don't like guns! :D

I have owned plenty of guns in my time. I used to hunt a lot also. I also know that the only thing that threatens hunters is a lack of clean air, water and good habitat for wildlife. Not Gun Control!

I have nothing against guns and most liberals don't either. Being a liberal is mostly about believing in freedom.

You said it! I usually stay out of poltical discussions because I find the whole "liberals hate America" argument both tiresome and laughable these days.

I consider myself fairly liberal, and my husband is as liberal as they come on most issues (lifetime ACLU member, supports social welfare programs, worked for environmental groups in college, etc, etc). We go shooting often and own several guns. In fact the spouse has carried a pistol and an M16 regularly for years, and right now on a daily basis while on patrol in the Sunni Triangle. His love of guns was a factor in his career choice, but it still hasn't led him to vote Republican. I don't get the connection either Cut-Throat, but someone's propaganda machine sure is good.
 
Well Flowgirl, if they get their news from the Rush Limbaugh show, you don't have to wonder where the warped reasoning comes from :D
 
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