help me understand crypto

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That's funny (well, not if it's you)... sort of a reversal of the video that was posted upthread. Seems that the "bank" in the video was actually Coinbase!

At least they made it right for the customer that lost $35,000 worth in less than 4 minutes::cool:
Eventually, the company sent a $200 credit, telling Ben, “your Coinbase experience and your wait for a response to your formal complaint was not up to our standards.”
 
The genius of Satoshi was understanding that effort or "work" is what creates scarcity, which in turn can be used to store value via a decentralized blockchain,


And here I thought the purpose of work was to create a good or service that is something other people value, and are willing to trade what they create for what I create.
 
And here I thought the purpose of work was to create a good or service that is something other people value, and are willing to trade what they create for what I create.

It is. You are bring a secure, direct, store of value, savings, and method of exchange to Billions of people globally (many of whom are unbanked). And they in turn are willing to "trade" their goods, services, or (rapidly declining) fiat currency in return for the services the miners provide.
 

Lol, most people went though the "BTC can be stolen fud" several cycles ago. Amazing it still comes up. But yes, if you keep your assets with a 3rd party, then of course you are vulnerable and dependent on that party to honour the recognition of your assets. Same with cash, gold, security, property, etc.

"Not your keys, not your coin" is the mantra applicable here. You have the option of holding and storing your Sats directly, based entirely on the certainty of a mathematical algorithm secured via the Bitcoin blockchain. That's the beauty of Bitcoin.

For those who are somewhat less comfortable holding directly, using an BTC ETF may be more comfortable (although in theory such investment vehicles still do have counter party risk, albeit low if its a reputable and regulated ETF). If you do wish to store with a 3rd party, then just like you cash that banks hold, there are risks you can be defrauded.
 
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It is. You are bring a secure, direct, store of value, savings, and method of exchange to Billions of people globally (many of whom are unbanked). And they in turn are willing to "trade" their goods, services, or (rapidly declining) fiat currency in return for the services the miners provide.
You're mixing up the work that was involved in creating the system with the "work" that you correctly put in double quotes.

As for "store of value", it didn't store much value for the folks in the CNBC article quoted above. Please refer to the "it's gone" video that was posted prior... the two things seem closely related.
Lol, most people went though the "BTC can be stolen fud" several cycles ago. Amazing it still comes up. But yes, if you keep your assets with a 3rd party, then of course you are vulnerable and dependent on that party to honour the recognition of your assets. Same with cash, gold, security, property, etc.
Interestingly enough, neither I nor anyone I know ever had cash, stocks, etc. disappear (such as via FDIC-insured banks or registered brokers). If "fud" means "stuff that's actually happening" then you should use the world "reports" instead.

"Interesting" (double quotes used for a reason) that a system that touts the reliability of a published ledger also has the "feature" (same parenthetical comment here) of making disappeared assets unrecoverable and untraceable. One can only wonder who built that "feature" into the system, and why.
 
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You're mixing up the work that was involved in creating the system with the "work" that you correctly put in double quotes.

As for "store of value", it didn't store much value for the folks in the CNBC article quoted above. Please refer to the "it's gone" video that was posted prior... the two things seem closely related.

Interestingly enough, neither I nor anyone I know ever had cash, stocks, etc. disappear (such as via FDIC-insured banks or registered brokers). If "fud" means "stuff that's actually happening" then you should use the world "reports" instead.

"Interesting" (double quotes used for a reason) that a system that touts the reliability of a published ledger also has the "feature" (same parenthetical comment here) of making disappeared assets unrecoverable and untraceable. One can only wonder who built that "feature" into the system, and why.

Not sure what you mean about "work". Bitcoin was invented altruistically as a concept, and unlike almost all alts, the founder (Satoshi) made no money directly. Rather it was pursuant to that invention that coins were created by by mining. That is the "work" involved which secure the network, creates scarcity, and which in turn is what makes Bitcoin so desirable and valuable.

As for "store of value" the Bitcoins in the article you mentioned are just as valuable both before and after they were stolen. Its just that the owner of the coins changed. Same concept if gold or cash was stolen from you. You would "lose" the value stolen, but the stolen item itself retains value. Make sense?

As for people losing money in the "real world" it happens far far more often with fiat currency than with Bitcoin. And the irony of course is that even if not, all fiat currencies over time decline in value.

Its easy to find FUD on any new technology, whether the internet, electric vehicles, self-driving cars, etc. As an investor, the question you essentially need to be asking is, "Is the demand for Bitcoin going to decrease or increase over time". And second "Once all the currently circulating FUD has finally been settled, will the price of BTC likely be higher, or lower". Your answers to that will help drive your decision.

Is Bitcoin a store of value? This may be insightful:

http://youtu.be/Nun8ngEo4Ao
 
Somewhere in that video there are a few points but I don't have the patience to sit through it. Just 36 views on that, so how legitimate is that source?

I don't fault or judge because of Bitcoin belief. If someone needs understanding a decent book would explain the situation and critique things as necessary.
 
Somewhere in that video there are a few points but I don't have the patience to sit through it. Just 36 views on that, so how legitimate is that source?

I don't fault or judge because of Bitcoin belief. If someone needs understanding a decent book would explain the situation and critique things as necessary.

Don't just a book by its cover (or the usefulness of a YouTube clip only by its views. :).

However, if "views" are your metric of legitimacy, and if you want a more popular and very good Bitcoin education series, the discussions in this channel are excellent and highly recommended:

https://youtu.be/s_0ggp41rT4
 
I am trying to get a better understanding of the crypto space and what sort of major changes may or may not be occurring due to that.

Here's an article on this topic from an economist with Cornell University and Brookings Institution.

The Brutal Truth About Bitcoin

Regarding "major changes that may or may not be occurring", the same author is preparing to publish a book about that.

The Future of Money
 
Regarding the future of money, apart from the obvious (paper money goes away), the most important trend to understand is the role that Governments used to play as being the issuer of so called "legal tender". Previously it was governments who printed money, and who determined what people could among themselves, use as both a store of value and as a method of payment.

All this is about to change BIG TIME, as access to computers, the internet, and now the invention of the Bitcoin blockchain means that any human, anywhere in the world, will store and exchange value on a platform entirely separated from any government control, namely Bitcoin (as opposed to the government dictating what humans may among themselves use as a medium of exchange).

Whilst it may seem obvious, this really is quite revolutionary in modern times (although in many ways is simply a reversion to how we have lived and traded most of our human evolution (although this is of the first time in human history we are able to do this globally in a consistent manner due to computer technology).

What is really important as investors, even those who cannot fully grasp what is coming, is to have some ownership of Bitcoin now. The educated and wealthy have a massive advantage to transfer some existing stores of wealth into the emerging store of wealth before the masses. For those who fail to act, and who are already smart and privileged enough to be on platform like this website, you have been warned. :)
 
What is really important as investors, even those who cannot fully grasp what is coming, is to have some ownership of Bitcoin now.
No, that's not really important. To you, maybe.

I get that you're holding bitcoin and you want to promote it so your holdings will go up. Who cares? The OP's post wasn't about that.

Sure, bitcoin could go to a million or a billion, and everyone holding it now can buy their own island. Or maybe not. You're free to roll the dice.

Crypto evangelists are kind of a broken record. People who want to get in on the horse race can visit the links you suggested. The link I posted is better for people who just want to gain an understanding about what the OP asked about.
 
No, that's not really important. To you, maybe.

I get that you're holding bitcoin and you want to promote it so your holdings will go up. Who cares? The OP's post wasn't about that.

Sure, bitcoin could go to a million or a billion, and everyone holding it now can buy their own island. Or maybe not. You're free to roll the dice.

Crypto evangelists are kind of a broken record. People who want to get in on the horse race can visit the links you suggested. The link I posted is better for people who just want to gain an understanding about what the OP asked about.

I get that you may be holding cash and want to promote your holdings of it, but who cares. :) OK, just having a laugh.

But seriously, whether a person "promotes" Bitcoin or not, this will actually not change their holdings, as the number of Bitcoin is constant. But what may go up (or down) is the price others (as measured in fiat currency) are willing to pay to obtain some of those Bitcoin.

Bitcoin will keep doing its thing regardless of what you think of it. If it bothers you, move on to another post to read, but I do think its very much worth learning more on this topic.

No coiners are really a stubborn (and sometime bitter?) bunch. What's a no-coiner? See here:

https://youtu.be/jSyoQWq3ozY
 
Somewhere in that video there are a few points but I don't have the patience to sit through it. Just 36 views on that, so how legitimate is that source?

I don't fault or judge because of Bitcoin belief. If someone needs understanding a decent book would explain the situation and critique things as necessary.

Don't just a book by its cover (or the usefulness of a YouTube clip only by its views. :).

However, if "views" are your metric of legitimacy, and if you want a more popular and very good Bitcoin education series, the discussions in this channel are excellent and highly recommended:

https://youtu.be/s_0ggp41rT4
I'm not going to that link, sorry. The more you post the more I suspect you're driving clicks. I do judge books by their content, and depend on books and scholar articles to learn about subjects like blockchain. So I'm not looking for popular interpretation. That doesn't mean I don't use the tube for instructional videos on some topics.

I'm a believer in traditional index investing, like VTSAX. Crypto threads are interesting because I am asked for advice on investing trends like crypto.
 
But seriously, whether a person "promotes" Bitcoin or not, this will actually not change their holdings, as the number of Bitcoin is constant. But what may go up (or down) is the price others (as measured in fiat currency) are willing to pay to obtain some of those Bitcoin.

Kind of like saying Swiss francs never go up or down, because one is always worth one franc.

Of course we know, there's no requirement for crypto evangelists to have logical reasoning.

No coiners are really a stubborn (and sometime bitter?) bunch. What's a no-coiner? See here:
It's also not unusual for evangelists to have a penchant for dividing the world into "believers" and "non-believers", and telling people how "wrong" (psychologically or otherwise) the non-believers are.

Unlike you, I have no bitterness about whether people do what I do.

I do think its very much worth learning more on this topic.
That's why you should read the material I linked to. Here it is again:

Here's an article on this topic from an economist with Cornell University and Brookings Institution.

The Brutal Truth About Bitcoin

Regarding "major changes that may or may not be occurring", the same author is preparing to publish a book about that.

The Future of Money
 
I'm not going to that link, sorry. The more you post the more I suspect you're driving clicks. I do judge books by their content, and depend on books and scholar articles to learn about subjects like blockchain. So I'm not looking for popular interpretation. That doesn't mean I don't use the tube for instructional videos on some topics.

I'm a believer in traditional index investing, like VTSAX. Crypto threads are interesting because I am asked for advice on investing trends like crypto.

Hey there is no need to apologize! We are all here to discuss and of course we are all free to read/watch anything we wish.

I too, like reading. The thing is though, with fast evolving tech you will find the medium of choice, rightly or wrongly, are platforms like youtube, twitter, etc. So you get a lot of crap, but also some fantastic information.
 
Thanks for the warning, 37andhappy, and I hope you get rich quick. I’m entirely open to crypto and block chain being revolutionary in society. As a passive investor, I’m experiencing cognitive dissonance in seeing an exciting new industry and whole new asset class emerge, yet feeling my wallet frozen, because:

1) I know the indices that I already own will reflect, soon enough, any viable block chain stocks that grow real commercial legs, similar to how Amazon, Facebook, Apple, Netflix and more emerged during the time I’ve owned the total stock index fund and now drive its value. I don’t feel equipped to speculate on companies or even block chain ETFs that will surely come along soon.

2). Bitcoin has been a spectacular speculation device to date but it has little or no practical application. Its shortcomings are spawning and splintering into many dubious new crypto currencies, like Bitcoin Cash, that purport to address Bitcoin’s shortcomings. Will one succeed? Which one/s? Ether has some advantages but it’s supply will not be limited, so why buy it?

3). I have invested long enough to have “been warned” that I would miss the boat if I didn’t allocate every dollar immediately to biotech stocks. And if I still had any dollars left after that fad, I was an idiot if I didn’t plow everything into nanotech stocks. I suppose I own some of those in the stock index funds but I’d be hard pressed to say which.
 
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Thanks for the warning, 37andhappy, and I hope you get rich quick. I’m entirely open to crypto and block chain being revolutionary in society. As a passive investor, I’m experiencing cognitive dissonance in seeing an exciting new industry and whole new asset class emerge, yet feeling my wallet frozen, because:

1) I know the indices that I already own will reflect, soon enough, any viable block chain stocks that grow real commercial legs, similar to how Amazon, Facebook, Apple, Netflix and more emerged during the time I’ve owned the total stock index fund and now drive its value. I don’t feel equipped to speculate on companies or even block chain ETFs that will surely come along soon.

2). Bitcoin has been a spectacular speculation device to date but it has little or no practical application. Its shortcomings are spawning and splintering into many dubious new crypto currencies, like Bitcoin Cash, that purport to address Bitcoin’s shortcomings. Will one succeed? Which one/s? Ether has some advantages but it’s supply will not be limited, so why buy it?

3). I have invested long enough to have “been warned” that I would miss the boat if I didn’t allocate every dollar immediately to biotech stocks. And if I still had any dollars left after that fad, I was an idiot if I didn’t plow everything into nanotech stocks. I suppose I own some of those in the stock index funds but I’d be hard pressed to say which.

Welcome and thanks! Well "rich" is of course all relative. I did it so far the old-fashioned way - hard work, and good sensible investments over time. For me, Bitcoin should be treated more as a hedge on the future and an investment in a long term trend. Those who are in for the short term, and in particular who cannot understand (or stomach) volatility, an investment in Bitcoin of an significant size is not for them. But for the average conservative investor who wants to preserve wealth, and have the benefits of diversification, not to mention options given a whole range of scary future scenarios, I would recommend 1-3% allocation to Bitcoin (and a similar amount to gold).

A few comment on your points above:

1. Many of the equity indices you have will not have direct allocation to Bitcoin, although over time yes the such funds will have indirect to BTC via banks, crypto exchanges, fintech companies etc in the index. Eventually maybe also via a Bitcoin ETF. So yes, that is certainly one option. And in general I agree, don't get caught up in fads, and its also a good general principle not to invest in things you don't understand. (Although a little addition to that last point I would add, is to make an attempt to understand things which may be good investments - even if the end conclusion is to not proceed to invest).

2. You are plain wrong on your comment on lack of practical application. (Not wanting to sound rude here, but if you are genuinely interested, so some research on how is provides a store of wealth and direct bank account for millions of people in the world currently "unbanked". Not to mention how it can be used as a store of value against declining fiat currencies. And how for all humans, it removes the ability of Governments to control our freedom to spend and exchange value. (And bear in mind we don't all live in the US).

As for splintering into "new currencies" this is an important FUD to consider, and understand. But the basic answer comes down to network effects and collective societal agreement on what will be used as a global store of value. Which is of course why despite a theoretical number of "alts" to Bitcoin can be created, none have usurped BTC, and almost all have (and will) fade away into almost nothingness. These types of FUD are good questions to ponder, but the opposing FUD you should consider if what may you miss out on by not having zero exposure to BTC in the event that certain future scenarios might arise. You are correct not to buy any alt that is not limited in supply, and yes that is a very good reason to be cautious of or stay away from ETH (despite the hype).

3. Yes, good to be aware of anything that is a fad or hot. Stay away from anything you don't understand, And be especially careful only to allocate small portions of your portfolio to such areas.

Good luck! (And in the future do thank me, or rather ultimately yourself, if you acquire some BTC and HODL).
 
Thanks 37and happy. I Googled and see that Bitcoin ATMs are, in fact, springing up. Thanks for the correction. https://coincloud.medium.com/how-bitcoin-atms-help-the-unbanked-10e1442cd02e

I know that stock index funds won’t trade in crypto currencies. However, I would expect block chain technology and crypto-related companies (like the ATM company above?) to become public companies and thus be reflected in the indices. The problem is, who knows which ones? In the old days, smart money would have bet on Alta Vista, Netscape or Yahoo, not some non-existent upstart called Google.
 
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No US ETFs yet but Canada has them. In the US GBTC and ETHE are options in many brokerage accounts if you are ok with a 2% fee close end fund. Currently at a 14% discount for Bitcoin
 
Other options, if you are wanting listed companies that actually hold Sats on their balance sheets, include:

MicroStrategy (MSTR)
Tesla (TSLA)
Galaxy Digital Holdings (BRPHF)
Voyager Digital (VYGVF)
Square (SQ)
Marathon Digital (MARA)
Coinbase (COIN)
Mercado Libre (MELI)
Twitter (TWTR)
PayPay (PYPL)

Actually many more once I start listing, and many more also in Asia and emerging markets too where I primarily focus my time,

And of course many more companies have exposure to BTC as part of their business activities but may not classify it as a treasury asset.

So to a point that a person posted earlier, yes, we all will get greater exposure over time, as global BTC networking and integration etc permeates more and more of our global monetary system. The decision to hold directly is really simply a matter of concentration. Eg, do you want greater exposure that the average person (which would give you huge upside if this trend does continue), or, do you simply stay exposed to the economy generally via a broad mix of stocks via an ETF (in which case you will participate in the adoption), but not greater than the average participant.

A massive game changer will be direct ETF listed in the US. This will essentially open the gates to any fund, investment advisor./manager, mom and pop investor, private fund, HNW etc who so far have not felt comfortable with existing options. If you believe that almost all would likely, over time, allocate just a little to such an ETF, and if you believe that such an ETF is inevitable, then you would definitely want to get in now, prior to this occurring. So again, what this comes down to, is your confidence (or desire for exposure) to future societal change (for which they cannot be absolute certainty, but only estimates and predictions of likelihoods of occurrence).
 
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