Honolulu rail

SecondAttempt said:
You are most welcome!

And I'm sure those archeologists will reason that 'F the rail' was just an expression of local enthusiasm to fund the fail!

Glad i don't have to look at it everyday.
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"fund the fail" was a typo, but oh, man, I'm not gonna fix that!
 
Perhaps the money in Hawaii would have been better spent on an emergency communication system that works, forestry management and a water utility that delivers water when there is a fire......
 
It’s easy to criticize, and especially so when the target is our elected officials. There are many complaints here about the high price of gasoline, road and auto related taxes, and everything EV. It seems to me that on a location such as Hawaii, where energy is scarce and costly, it makes lots of sense to invest in a public transportation infrastructure.
 
FlaMariner said:
Perhaps the money in Hawaii would have been better spent on an emergency communication system that works, forestry management and a water utility that delivers water when there is a fire......
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Actually, there was an emergency communication system (tsunami siren.) There was plenty of water but it was being diverted for a reason I can not mention here.

Finally, HECO had promised to spend a bundle on updating lines/transformers and fire hazards. Instead they spent it on green energy.
 
MichaelB said:
It’s easy to criticize, and especially so when the target is our elected officials. There are many complaints here about the high price of gasoline, road and auto related taxes, and everything EV. It seems to me that on a location such as Hawaii, where energy is scarce and costly, it makes lots of sense to invest in a public transportation infrastructure.
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We already had one of those (public transportation infrastructure) it's called THE BUS (that's its name.)

And you are right - it's very easy to criticize since the issues of the light rail were known before building. It was known that very little in the way of traffic reduction would be realized (the PROPONENTS in gummint admitted that the maximum decrease in vehicular traffic would be 6%.) For $14 billion, that's not too efficient.

No, it was well realized all along that this was a make-w*rk project - not really a public transportation project. Now, were saddled with it. No going back. No way to pay for it short of more taxation. No way to get people to ride it (If it were free - I'm not certain they would get many riders.) Let's face it. $3 won't buy a gallon of gas and the commute form Kapolei is 20 miles one way. IOW riding the light rail SHOULD be a no brainer. $6 (round trip) to save probably $8 worth of gas and wear and tear. But no one wants the inconvenience of riding a rail that goes to a bus terminal and doesn't deliver you to your empl*yer.

You could complain all day about people not being logical, but it would do no good. People do what they think is in their best interest - and it's not always a few dollars. It's more likely convenience. The rail is not convenient. It's not convenient to get on and it's not convenient to get off.

If it ever catches on - it will be because people hate being stuck in traffic. I think that might make me consider riding it if I lived Ewa. YMMV
 
MichaelB said:
It’s easy to criticize, and especially so when the target is our elected officials. There are many complaints here about the high price of gasoline, road and auto related taxes, and everything EV. It seems to me that on a location such as Hawaii, where energy is scarce and costly, it makes lots of sense to invest in a public transportation infrastructure.
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Here's an article that names Engineering Professor Panos Prevedouros who tried to get the PTB to reconsider their proposal for a light rail. He essentially predicted what would happen if they stuck with this idea and so far he is proving to be right. Of course, he was poo poo'd and shut down, denigrated in all the media, made fun of for his accent, etc. Too bad no one would listen.

https://www.cato.org/blog/lessons-honolulus-new-train-system

By the way, if by some miracle, the rail turns out to be a good transportation system that 120,000 people ride, I'll be ecstatic. But I wouldn't bet on it. YMMV
 
MichaelB said:
It’s easy to criticize, and especially so when the target is our elected officials. There are many complaints here about the high price of gasoline, road and auto related taxes, and everything EV. It seems to me that on a location such as Hawaii, where energy is scarce and costly, it makes lots of sense to invest in a public transportation infrastructure.
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Sorry, not piling on - but I just happened to live through all of this and I'm paying for it and will until I die (and likely beyond.)

As far as energy is concerned, gasoline is cheaper here than in California. It would be even cheaper, but we don't buy Russian oil now. BUT, the rail runs on electricity which is the highest cost in the nation.

I feel "authorized" to criticize, because all the issues that we are now seeing (lack of convenience, cost over runs of 3 X or more, wheels that wouldn't fit*, shortened routes, failure to pay for itself, resistance to riding, etc.) were all accurately predicted and relayed to those who wanted a make-w*rk project. (Oh, and heaven only knows how many thousands of person-years were wasted and traffic snarled during the building of the hideous structure right down major thoroughfares.)

* Full disclosure: No one predicted the wheels wouldn't fit but they did predict that Hawaii doesn't do well with big projects that integrate systems (big construction, equipment bidding, safety, maintenance, Federal money, etc.) Look no further than the Aloha stadium that rusted away in less than 40 years. It's just not our forte. There were alternatives (add lanes to the freeways, add more buses - they actually get ridership for commuting, if rail - then a different kind of rail, etc.) No one would listen - their minds were made up early on. All dissenting voices were silenced or shouted down.


Well, I think I'm done. For today.:cool:
 
From my perspective, I'm actually a big fan of public transportation where it makes sense. That is where population densities are high. I like going to Japan and Europe partly because they have good public transportation networks and I can avoid driving to a large extent. But here in Hawaii it just makes no sense and never did, not for political reasons but because we don't have high density O&D points (origin and destination).

They should have explored creative solutions to address traffic like encouraging employers to use flexible work schedules, having staggered schedules for schools, etc. Unfortunately the state could not get federal money for stuff like that.

MichaelB mentioned energy being scarce here. I suppose that is true on an obvious level but I'm not sure it is true in practice. We do not get rolling blackouts or other indicators of lack of grid capacity. There are no submarine cables connecting the island power grids. Each island seems to generate enough power to serve the needed capacity. It's expensive because it costs a lot to transport fuel here but there is quite a bit of renewable energy like rooftop solar, wind, and geothermal. I've mentioned in another thread that we have a lot of outages and they can last days. But that is almost always because of fallen trees or drunks hitting power poles.

I remember coming here in 1991 and gas was about $5.40 a gallon when it was a little over a dollar at home in Arizona. I filled up this morning and paid $5.09 a gallon which is less than it is in California now. I'm not sure how that is possible. I did hear early in the Russia/Ukraine war that Hawaii gets its oil from Russia. But I don't know any details because I'm not aware of any refineries here.
 
Andre1969 said:
I'm just curious...are there any examples in recent memory of light rail, trolley, streetcar systems, etc, that were actually beneficial to their communities? As opposed to just costing tons of money, adding to congestion, etc?

At first, I was thinking about the Baltimore Light Rail. But I was talking with a friend the other day, who lived in Baltimore for awhile, and he said it was horribly unreliable. I also looked it up, and apparently it only handles about 9200 riders per day on average. I think I last rode it in late 2017. It was nice to be able to park out in the suburbs, and ride the train into the downtown/inner harbor area, and not have to worry about traffic, parking, squeegee boyz, etc.

But, out in the 'burbs, in those parking lots you'll occasionally see shattered car window glass sparkling on the pavement. So, you take a risk leaving your car there, as well.

They're working on something else in Maryland called "The Purple Line", an streetcar/light rail type of thing that's supposed to connect the New Carrollton Metro station to the one in Silver Spring, or something like that. One of my friends bought a house not far from the proposed route, and was SOOO excited about how it when it opened, it was going to make the value of his house skyrocket. Well, that was around 2007/2008 when he bought the house. And with delays, I think now they're looking for a 2027 opening for the Purple Line. Talk about setbacks!

And honestly, I don't see how it does anything a bus couldn't do. My Dad used to live about a quarter mile's walk from where the tracks are going through. For awhile, he went without a car. He would walk that quarter mile to the bus stop, and catch the bus, or probably, a series of buses, to and from work. Well, once that Purple Line train opens, it's not like would have been able to just walk up to the main street and catch it, like he did the bus. Nearest station is about a mile's walk. So, figure a ~20 minute walk, to catch the train, vs a ~5 minute walk to catch the bus.

Eventually, he just bought a car, and the commute to work was about 15-20 minutes, total.

I'm sure these mass transit projects can be made to work more effectively. And maybe they actually DO work, for some people. But in the end, to me at least, they just seem like they're more trouble than they're worth.
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If you ever visit Nice, France, they have a tram system which is about a decade old.

Cost from the airport is under €2, takes about 20 minutes. Taxi would be at least 10 times that, bus would take longer, not sure about cost.

Similar new tram system in Florence, Italy.

I am in London currently, just east of Covent Garden area. I took the Piccadilly line. I think my cost is about £5-6 and it took about an hour. Taxi would have been at least £40-45, about the same amount of time. Paddington Express would have been about £15 I want to say but not sure.

I purposely booked a hotel near the Piccadilly line stations.

I think in NYC, the mass transportation options may be better from JFK to Manhattan, depending on traffic conditions.

So mass transportation can work.

IIRC, we had a previous thread and I had found studies showing that light rail did have economic benefits, which is why many cities keep operating them and also building new ones.

It can be done right.

I don't know the particulars in Honolulu though. How far is the airport from the center of Oahu? How much does it cost to transfer and how long?

I would imagine parking is costly in the center of Oahu and difficult?
 
SecondAttempt said:
From my perspective, I'm actually a big fan of public transportation where it makes sense. That is where population densities are high. I like going to Japan and Europe partly because they have good public transportation networks and I can avoid driving to a large extent. But here in Hawaii it just makes no sense and never did, not for political reasons but because we don't have high density O&D points (origin and destination).

They should have explored creative solutions to address traffic like encouraging employers to use flexible work schedules, having staggered schedules for schools, etc. Unfortunately the state could not get federal money for stuff like that.

MichaelB mentioned energy being scarce here. I suppose that is true on an obvious level but I'm not sure it is true in practice. We do not get rolling blackouts or other indicators of lack of grid capacity. There are no submarine cables connecting the island power grids. Each island seems to generate enough power to serve the needed capacity. It's expensive because it costs a lot to transport fuel here but there is quite a bit of renewable energy like rooftop solar, wind, and geothermal. I've mentioned in another thread that we have a lot of outages and they can last days. But that is almost always because of fallen trees or drunks hitting power poles.

I remember coming here in 1991 and gas was about $5.40 a gallon when it was a little over a dollar at home in Arizona. I filled up this morning and paid $5.09 a gallon which is less than it is in California now. I'm not sure how that is possible. I did hear early in the Russia/Ukraine war that Hawaii gets its oil from Russia. But I don't know any details because I'm not aware of any refineries here.
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We're down to one refinery on Oahu now IIRC - used to be two up to a few years ago.

Refined products are then barged to neighbor Islands which accounts for their 50 cent to $1 over Oahu prices.

As far as Hawaii is from anyplace, as the tanker goes, it's not all that much farther than California. We have lots of "energy" issues in the Islands but getting FFs is not one of them. YMMV
 
gcgang said:
https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/lee-cataluna-the-view-from-the-skyline-rail-is-not-exactly-scenic/

Here’s an article from Civil Beat, talking more about the miserable living conditions you see from the train than the boondoggle of the train itself.

If only Captain Cook had never come…he’d probably agree. Lol.
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LC emphasizes the view FROM the rail - not the view OF the rail.

I always knew how over-built and crowded Oahu is just from flying in and driving through. Now, add a (so far) $10billion boondoggle right down the middle of the urban sprawl. Maybe IF it accomplished anything other than lining pockets and making w*rk - maybe I could readjust my thinking.

One thing LC forgot: Few people will ever see the view she describes as there will be few riders. The view I describe, everyone will see whenever they drive Ewa beyond downtown. Thankfully, I don't have to look at it in East Honolulu. I still have to pay for it - but at least I rarely have to look at it. So there's that.:(
 
Just one more (for now):


I finally thought of something good to say about the Rail. It makes us forget how expensive the H3 freeway (Interstate??) was. Original cost was like $100 million/mile. SO, now the rail is at 1 Billion/mile. I guess the H3 wasn't so bad after all, now was it?:cool:

Oh, I forgot, so far, I don't think we've received dollar one of the money the Feds promised ($.9billion?) for the rail. And as an "Interstate" I think the Feds paid either 90% or maybe it was 50% the cost of the H3. Hmmm, H3 is sounding better all the time.

And if LC wants a nice "Skyline" view, she ought to drive the H3. It's 90% as good as a helicopter ride over the same area - and it's free. And all we're paying now is our share of the maintenance. Of course, we won't maintain the rail, 'cause it's all ours. Think how much we'll save!
 
The last time I drove in Honolulu, the traffic was horrible. I hope this helps. in addition, it means less reliance on ships delivering fuel and less air pollution.
 
I really resent that I have to pay for the Rail, I can't even imagine what that would feel like on other Islands.
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I can tell you how it feels for those of us in Windward Oahu!!

{For those of you unfamiliar with our island, the rail is supposed to support people living in Leeward (western side of) Oahu. There's the Ko'olau mountain range between Windward Oahu & the rest of the island, so no possible benefit for us.}
 
Man, you guys are confirming my decision not to return to Hawaii since leaving 53 years ago.
 
imnontrad said:
The last time I drove in Honolulu, the traffic was horrible. I hope this helps. in addition, it means less reliance on ships delivering fuel and less air pollution.
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I hope so too. I don't think it will help with fuel usage all that much. As mentioned elsewhere, even the proponents of the rail admitted it would only reduce traffic by 6% from Ewa area. So far, no one is using it, but maybe that will change. YMMV
 
catii said:
I can tell you how it feels for those of us in Windward Oahu!!

{For those of you unfamiliar with our island, the rail is supposed to support people living in Leeward (western side of) Oahu. There's the Ko'olau mountain range between Windward Oahu & the rest of the island, so no possible benefit for us.}
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Yeah, I hear you. I used to live windward and really appreciated the 3 tunnels that connected us to greater Honolulu. There was always a way out of Windward Oahu. But I typically avoided down town. Of course we learned to make our trips between 9:30AM to 2:30PM.

I don't see the rail helping much since the most optimistic prediction was a 6% reduction in traffic. So far, no one is riding the thing.

BUT I hope I am completely wrong. I really do. YMMV
 
Gumby said:
Man, you guys are confirming my decision not to return to Hawaii since leaving 53 years ago.
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You'd hardly recognize the place! As long as you have plenty of money and don't plan to drive, you just might fall in love with the place. YMMV
 
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