If they’re not working, bottom line is they don’t want to work

[Katsmeow]

It's not about jailing them permanently. It's about behavior modification. It's about not pouring an equal amount of money into housing a few and offering "services" that don't change anything.

Step back and ask yourself why this mess did not exist 50 years ago? What's changed? As far as I can tell, it's tolerance of bad behavior and enabling addictions. It's not letting people feel the consequences of their actions. It's NOT writing the check to institutionalize people that cannot function that we used to write.

Yes, let's do ask why this didn't exist 50 years ago. One reason is that long term mental hospitals more or less vanished. At one time people with mental illness, chronic addictions, etc. were institutionalized often for long periods of time. The problem was that they were often not treated, just warehoused. At one time, there were no effective treatments available. But, then there were more treatments available.

This is a be careful what you wish for. There was a push to treat these people. And, eventually, it was ruled that you couldn't just warehouse without treatment the non-dangerous mentally ill. Many advocates celebrated that victory thinking it would mean that the non-dangerous mentally ill would receive treatment.

But, that isn't want happened. What happened was that they were simply released to the street. These were often people with serious mental illness/addiction. The idea that they are going to get a job and be able to get and keep it is, well, not accurate.

I have a daughter with mental illness (she does work actually but it is a struggle for her and she often loses jobs then has to find a new one, etc). Anyway, I remember one time when she was hospitalized and was about to be released -- she wasn't dangerous to others or herself at that moment. She still had a mental illness though. Anyway, we were picking her up from the hospital. I asked what they would have done if we didn't do it.

It was simple. They were going to give her a bus ticket and then simply release her to the street. She would have walked out of the hospital with the clothes on her back, a prescription (no money to fill it) and a single bus ticket. They would have given her the address to a group home that she could stay at...if she had the $700 or so that it cost to go pay for a month.

Even if she was functioning well enough then to work, it isn't that easy to do when you have no address and not a penny to your name. That single bus ticket doesn't do a whole lot for you.

I mean we can say that people who are addicts have made bad choices. But, that doesn't cure the addiction in the meantime. Mental illness itself is often a matter of bad luck.

That does not, by the way, mean that it is a good thing to give cash to the homeless. A better thing is to try to help them to get to a homeless shelter or place to get a meal (but, no, many won't accept that either due to mental illness or substance abuse). I once knew a guy who gave out transportation to a food pantry or homeless shelter. I forget the details and how he did it, but it seemed a better choice than giving out cash.

 

[razztazz]

Jeebus. Sure a bunch of people who want to spend $50,000+/annum to jail a bunch of people who have their own problems.

HA! They don't want to pay 50 grand to jail those people. They want tax cuts and smaller government. They don't want to treat problems, or fix the causes of problems, and they don't want to pay to throw them jail either. I don't know what they want... other than game their 1040s for communist medical insurance subsidies.

 

[hopefullyoneday]

You also have to figure out the ones who actually need the help or the ones out doing it for the hustle.

 

[brewer12345]

Kind of an awkward time of year for this sort of thing, no?


I see two sides to this issue. On the one hand, there is plenty of bad behavior and lack of responsibility on the part of a solid chunk of the homeless population. Drugs are a primary problem, but I would be surprised if at least some find it easier and/or more lucrative to panhandle rather than work. OTOH, these are human beings who generally have very large problems that have not otherwise have been addressed. Addiction, mental illness, other major health problems, etc. Hard to work if you have a felony record, no fixed address, a few screws loose, etc. And I have to imagine that in climates with a real winter it is no picnic to be exposed to the elements.


I'd guess that if there were resources available to treat the addiction and mental illness of this population you'd just have to deal with the chronically unemployable and the just plain down on their luck folks. Anyone want to hold their breath on those resources being devoted? So I am happy to donate to organized charities and similar efforts, I generally am not interested in handing money over to panhandlers. Many are grifting for their next fix and in any case I am not interested in risking things going poorly for me personally when I do so.

 

[Aerides]

There but for the grace of God...

 

[travelover]

The paradox is that if you are mentally ill, you need help, but have the legal right to refuse it. And you refuse it because, after all, you are mentally ill. A totally rational and sane person would take the help, take the meds.

Some of the mentally ill have advocates that make sure harm doesn't come to them while they are in crisis mode and the rest we see under bridges and pushing grocery carts of belongings. It's too bad there weren't similar issues in the time of Jesus because He probably would have had an opinion on the topic.

 

[HFWR]

“Who let all this riffraff into the room?”

 

[ERD50]

.... So I am happy to donate to organized charities and similar efforts, I generally am not interested in handing money over to panhandlers. ...

+1 For me, that capsulizes the whole thing.

Donate to organizations that know how to help people. Giving to random beggars is a crap shoot, and likely doing more harm than good.

It's not uncharitable to bypass the street beggar, if you can do more good by donating that to an organization to help the homeless.

-ERD50

 

[Sunset]

+1 For me, that capsulizes the whole thing.

Donate to organizations that know how to help people. Giving to random beggars is a crap shoot, and likely doing more harm than good.

It's not uncharitable to bypass the street beggar, if you can do more good by donating that to an organization to help the homeless.

-ERD50

+1

One time a beggar asked us for money, we said we would buy him lunch, he tagged along constantly telling us not to bother ourselves, and the money would be fine. I mean he constantly was trying to get $$ instead of lunch.
When we got to the restaurant, and opened the door, he swore at us, called us names and marched off to beg someone else for some $$ for food....

Obviously it was for drugs/booze and not giving him any $$ was really helping him.

 

[audreyh1]

The panhandlers around here are much older.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

A local news article said they were seeing an uptick in the elderly at the homeless shelters in our area and there were concerns it was going to be a growing trend. It is hard enough to find a job at 70 let alone 70 and homeless as well. Many of those people may easily have dementia or Alzheimer's and they certainly won't improve living on the streets.

 

[FIREd]

Kind of an awkward time of year for this sort of thing, no?

+1


After living in San Francisco and seeing my fair share of homelessness, I realized that I am in no position to judge them.

 

[bingybear]

+1


After living in San Francisco and seeing my fair share of homelessness, I realized that I am in no position to judge them.

+1
Some years back there was a news report (local) where they found some of the beggars lived in very nice houses in nice neighborhoods. I'm not implying this was most... but they reported on several that they found.

For me it is hard to judge without more objective info. People have gone broke over medical issues and other things.

When I was younger (college age) I would take a homeless beggar to a fast food place and eat with them. I figured that way I knew my donation was going for what I intended and I got to understand them better. Maybe I should consider doing that again?

 

[sturbridge]

there is plenty of bad behavior and lack of responsibility on the part of a solid chunk of the homeless population.

You mean the population. I see plenty of people making bad decisions and not taking responsibility everywhere, not just homeless people. Look at foreclosures. Or that more than 1/2 the population is obese. Why should homeless/poor folks be held to a higher moral standard than the rest of us.

 

[donheff]

I see wave after wave of these twenty and thirty somethings on the corner begging for a handout and it’s sickening. In my city there are a ton of jobs available, entry level jobs are everywhere, in the year and a half that my wife has been in the country she has gone through 5 different jobs, she wants to work and jobs come with very little effort and a limited English vocabulary. In my city there’s no excuse for failure and I refuse to help anyone that won’t help themself

Blessed are the go getters, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[rayinpenn]

There but for the grace of god go any one of us, if life had dealt us a different hand.

Amen +++++

Sitting in my warm kitchen this morning, looking out on the fresh 4 inches of snow, I cant help but think how blessed I am -ok fortunate for some. I never for a moment take for granted being FI and the Mrs and I being of reasonably good health. I recognize it could change all too quickly. I need only look down the block to a neighbor who’s son got addicted to pain medication after a football injury. They had to lock their valuables up in a safe. Or next door where the nearly my age mom is battling cancer and the hospital bills trying to hang on until Medicare kicks in. No you don’t have to look far to see how things can easily go wrong.

In my youth my family had some very difficult times. I guess that’s one of the reasons I try not to be judge mental when I encounter a beggar. (I wont lie to you I rarely give money that way. It is a NY thing -You never take your wallet out of your pocket - too risky.) The other thing is I’ve learned no to make assumptions. How did someone end up with his/her hand out at the corner or at the ‘soup kitchen’ across the street from my job. Many reasons and I’m sure some would surprise us. While I wish there was no need for soup kitchens Im kinda glad that one there. I’ve seen a mom with her 2 grammar aged kids heading over there for some breakfast. It reminds me to be thankful for all that we have.

Ive read some pretty harsh comments in this post. Sadly there will always be those who abuse the system or the charity most of us have. There will also always be those who’ve just had some bad breaks- they deserve our kindness.

 

[Badger]

It is sad that there are so many dishonest people and scams. They only hurt those that really could use help. Based on what I have observed on a number of occasions I tend not to give money to those begging on street corners and in parking lots. I also do not respond to junk mail and phone calls. I do, however, make donations to organizations that I am familiar with where I know the money is being used to help those who need it. Money given to begging scams decrease the help that could have been given where it is needed.

Cheers!

 

[Nemo2]

I seem to recall posting this some time ago......but, in the early 1990s (IIRC), British Columbia TV, out of Vancouver, ran a segment on food banks........supposedly to reinforce the need for donations, one outlet trucked out their 'Poster Family' for the cameras:

Went something like this: "X & XX have been relying on the Food Bank for FIVE years.."

Pan to the young couple.....girl is pregnant and holding the hand of a three year old.

What, as the saying goes, is wrong with this picture?

 

[Midpack]

There but for the grace of God...

I’ve read some pretty harsh comments in this post. Sadly there will always be those who abuse the system or the charity most of us have. There will also always be those who’ve just had some bad breaks- they deserve our kindness.

Sad thread. How does the OP know who’s deserving and not, by age?

And it’s amazing how some ‘personal responsibility’ zealots completely change their tune when they (or family and friends) have unexpected bad breaks - hypocrites.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays.

 

[kcowan]

Yes they interviewed people in line at the food bank and asked why the people had cell phones and they answered that they could not get them for free anywhere. It is an honor system.

 

[jfn111]

I volunteer at a local food bank one morning a week. It is quite a cross section of people you encounter.
Some with obvious mental problems, young single mothers, elderly trying to survive off of social security and a lot of new immigrants to the country with poor language skills.
You also see some hustlers. My son and I like to go to the weekly meat raffle at a local establishment. I've seen the same people I helped in the morning spending hundreds of dollars on pull tabs. I prefer to think these are the minority.

 

[Nemo2]

I prefer to think these are the minority.

I hope so, but seeing them does tend to impact upon one's reactions....as a late friend of mine used to say "The name is Tucker, NOT Sucker".

 

[donheff]

Sad thread. How does the OP know who’s deserving and not, by age?

And it’s amazing how some ‘personal responsibility’ zealots completely change their tune when they (or family and friends) have unexpected bad breaks - hypocrites.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays.

+1

 

[Murf2]

I know this story will be hard to believe but it's true.

I live in a very small town. It is on an intersection to two highways. One of them leads to a power plant that is always under construction or being updated. We owned a bar right by the intersection.

One day an unknown pregnant woman started showing up mid afternoon. She had a will work for food sign with her. She would be gone shortly after shift change at the plant.

After a week or so the guys talked me into going over and offering her a job. Of course, she wasn't interested and I don't believe she was really preggers.

It became the talk of the town. People started checking her out and found that a man was dropping her off at our city Park and she would walk up town, panhandle four about 4 hours. She then would walk to the park & wait for her ride.

That's right, I live in a town so small we have to import our homeless.

I swear it's true.

Merry Christmas!
Murf
ETA, I don't want to trivialize the homeless situation. It's terrible some really need our help. Others are cheats. I always feel bad whether I give or not.

 

[97guns]

My starting of this thread was not to judge, not to imagine what their life is or has been and not to deem who is deserving of a handout or not. The message I tried to extend is that entry level jobs are plentiful and that these 20-30 somethings really need to get off their duffs and get a job

Never did I mention the elderly panhandler, the mentally ill or the post traumatic veteran, you all put those words in my thread, I do not get the same sickening feeling I do when I see the group I speak of panhandling