Letting the power company control your thermostat?

[jrgators]

I've been participating in this for probably 10+ years. I have 2 units so get $50 per month over the summer months. For us they dont raise the thermostat, they turn off the AC and just let the fan run. They then cycle the AC on and off as needed but dont keep the AC off for more than an hour (I think). They might use it once a summer at most so really not a big inconvenience for getting the credit.

 

[RetiredAndLovingIt]

SCE has adjusted the thermostat two days this week, once for an hour and the other for two. I don't even turn on the a/c till the temp climbs to 80 in the house and on normal days that rarely happens but we're in the second week of a heatwave right now with outside temps close to 110. I get the alert on my thermostat a couple of hours in advance. It's really not a big deal, I'm in the high desert and it's a dry heat with very low humidity. If they messed with the thermostat on a humid day, that's a totally different scenario and I'd opt out of the event immediately.

 

[JoeWras]

We don't have a smart thermostat but did give the utility permission to attach a device to the AC that lets them turn off the compressor "for brief periods of time." So far we haven't noticed any difference. They say that just running the fan for a while should suffice and presumably this allows them to manage peak load.

Hear me out on this: I don't like systems that just turn off the compressor and still run the fan. I think that is bad practice. These were very common over the last 3 decades or so. Today there is new tech. If I were to sign up for one of these plans, I'd rather they use a WiFi thermostat and just keep the whole system off.

Here's why:

In humid climates, de-humidification is just as important as cooling. During a cycle, when the compressor stops, most systems run the fan for about 30 seconds to capture the last of the cool in the coil. That's fine, but that's enough. If the fan continues to run after this, the latent moisture hanging on the coil evaporates and is injected back into the house. If the fan runs for even a longer time, the latent moisture collecting on the pan also evaporates and continues to raise the humidity in the house.

This doesn't matter as much in climates above the traditional Mason-Dixon line, or any climate in the West. For the Southeast where dew points frequently go above 70F, humidity control is paramount.

Need help visualizing it? Here's a picture of my 24 year old coil in action.

 

[RetMD21]

Hear me out on this: I don't like systems that just turn off the compressor and still run the fan. .......
This doesn't matter as much in climates above the traditional Mason-Dixon line, or any climate in the West. For the Southeast where dew points frequently go above 70F, humidity control is paramount.

Need help visualizing it? Here's a picture of my 24 year old coil in action.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Fortunately the local utility consulted a map. Also my understanding is that it's just supposed to be for "short periods of time"

 

[Koolau]

Interesting, I didn't know that. Fortunately the local utility consulted a map. Also my understanding is that it's just supposed to be for "short periods of time"

Heh, heh, "short period of time" is a fairly loose term - especially when coal fired power plants are being taken off line just when EVs are selling like hot cakes.

 

[Badger]

This doesn't matter as much in climates above the traditional Mason-Dixon line, or any climate in the West. For the Southeast where dew points frequently go above 70F, humidity control is paramount.

Humidity levels do more than just make the home uncomfortable. If left unchecked it can result in some serious mold and mildew problems in carpets, curtains, clothes, and even walls. I remember all too clearly these problems in the 70s when I lived in a beach cottage that had no air conditioning. The home where I am now has another new heat pump (in this area you are lucky if they last 12 years no matter what brand) as well as a dehumidifier that gets a workout. In the past month it has been raining quite a lot and the heat pump condensate line has been pumping water constantly as well as making the dehumidifier cycling.

Cheers!

 

[Koolau]

Humidity levels do more than just make the home uncomfortable. If left unchecked it can result in some serious mold and mildew problems in carpets, curtains, clothes, and even walls. I remember all too clearly these problems in the 70s when I lived in a beach cottage that had no air conditioning. The home where I am now has another new heat pump (in this area you are lucky if they last 12 years no matter what brand) as well as a dehumidifier that gets a workout. In the past month it has been raining quite a lot and the heat pump condensate line has been pumping water constantly as well as making the dehumidifier cycling.

Cheers!

I no longer have any clothes that are predominately white. Over our summer, without AC, anything white gets mold/mildew spots which don't seem to wash out (can't bleach anything with color, so, goodbye shirt.) We don't worry about the sheets as we can bleach them. Just one more "the price of Paradise." YMMV

 

[1242Vintage]

We are served by the worlds worst / not trust worthy power company … PG&E. Not giving to give them control of our thermostat.

 

[Koolau]

We are served by the worlds worst / not trust worthy power company … PG&E. Not giving to give them control of our thermostat.

I don't know. I kinda liked their hit song:

Returning you now...

 

[freedomatlast]

Hear me out on this: I don't like systems that just turn off the compressor and still run the fan. I think that is bad practice. These were very common over the last 3 decades or so. Today there is new tech. If I were to sign up for one of these plans, I'd rather they use a WiFi thermostat and just keep the whole system off.

Here's why:

In humid climates, de-humidification is just as important as cooling. During a cycle, when the compressor stops, most systems run the fan for about 30 seconds to capture the last of the cool in the coil. That's fine, but that's enough. If the fan continues to run after this, the latent moisture hanging on the coil evaporates and is injected back into the house. If the fan runs for even a longer time, the latent moisture collecting on the pan also evaporates and continues to raise the humidity in the house.

This doesn't matter as much in climates above the traditional Mason-Dixon line, or any climate in the West. For the Southeast where dew points frequently go above 70F, humidity control is paramount.

Need help visualizing it? Here's a picture of my 24 year old coil in action.

UV lights are available to help control that but degree of effectiveness is debatable.

 

[RetMD21]

Heh, heh, "short period of time" is a fairly loose term - especially when coal fired power plants are being taken off line just when EVs are selling like hot cakes.

We'll see. Summer peak rates were imposed on us a couple of years ago and on hot days my AC reliably clicks on a 7 pm when the rates decrease. I would speculate that if enough folks do the same it could cause a problem. If the short time periods are really short this might be enough to help. OTOH if the compressor isn't functioning and it gets uncomfortable I'll just quit.

 

[Koolau]

We'll see. Summer peak rates were imposed on us a couple of years ago and on hot days my AC reliably clicks on a 7 pm when the rates decrease. I would speculate that if enough folks do the same it could cause a problem. If the short time periods are really short this might be enough to help. OTOH if the compressor isn't functioning and it gets uncomfortable I'll just quit.

That's a good point. I can imagine a scenario where everyone is standing by their thermostat - waiting for the time the rates go down. Eagerly watching their watches, finger poised on the thermostat. Boom! Suddenly, everyone turns on their AC at the same time. Grid wires melt, and large transformers blow and burn. Lights dim and flicker then go out. Welcome to timed-metering.

 

[JoeWras]

That's a good point. I can imagine a scenario where everyone is standing by their thermostat - waiting for the time the rates go down. Eagerly watching their watches, finger poised on the thermostat. Boom! Suddenly, everyone turns on their AC at the same time. Grid wires melt, and large transformers blow and burn. Lights dim and flicker then go out. Welcome to timed-metering.

Something like this happens frequently with concert and sporting even tickets, especially since bots drive the traffic.

The one thing the grid has going for it at a 7PM set point is that commercial consumption is down by then.

 

[jazz4cash]

We’ve been on a program with the local utility for at least a decade. The incentive is $40/mo for two units. Ours are controlled via a unit on the condenser. We can choose 25,50, or 75% cycling. 50% cycling is 30 minutes on/30 minutes off. It only gets activated about 2x per season. By the time we notice a change, it’s cycled back on. They do send notifications but I usually miss those.

These credits are funded by surcharges on everybody’s bill. Everybody pays but only participants get a direct benefit.

 

[Spock]

Given the all or nothing/consequences be damned push to electrification, I was expecting mandates pushing everyone to time-of-use rates to reduce peak loads.
However given that the only approved sources are solar (which can't supply over night) and the whims of when the wind blows, the push will instead be to mandate remote control of the electric loads (aka your house).



The grid can't be upgraded in time to handle the push to electric everything, so they'll instead force load shedding.



The wake up call is that this is not being done by legislation that can be publicly voted on, but by bureaucrat/zealots within the regulatory agencies.

If system operators cannot control the output of wind turbine generators and solar panels to meet fluctuating customer demand then, to advance the decarbonization agenda, system operators must be given the authority and resources they need to control customer demand on an ongoing basis and limit that demand to levels that can be meet by the fluctuating capabilities of weather dependent generators.
Under pressure from environmentalists, more and more electric companies are installing equipment and implementing protocols that will allow them to remotely control customer demand continuously, not just during emergencies. California regulators have announced a goal to place 7,000 megawatts of customer demand under centralized control by 2030.
To sell this normalization of power cuts, the companies have launched sophisticated media programs designed to convince customers that flick-of-the-switch power is an irresponsible indulgence that must be foregone, and demand “flexibility” must be embraced, to save the planet from catastrophic climate change.

 

[badatmath]

You're probably correct, but do you have a citation about the mix of charging day vs night? I think that would be useful in this situation. Certainly when people travel long distances, they do need to charge during the daytime in many cases.

Right and my w*rk had charging at the office so people could do it all day. (Or however long it takes, IDK that).

They have different peak rate times here to try to prevent the 7 pm surge.

 

[freedomatlast]

The large manufacturing facility where I used to work, got credits (cash incentives) from the electricity supplier if we voluntarily reduced our electricity consumption during the afternoon on high impact days. We were notified in the morning if that particular day was going to be considered a high impact day. Upon notification, we would crank up the A/C and some of the machinery to maximum levels. Then in the afternoon, we would shut off the A/C, and turn off the compressors and some other high energy consumption equipment. By late in the afternoon, many of the processes were running high scrap levels and much of the machinery was down. So to save about $30,000/yr in energy credits, we'd produce hundreds of thousands of dollars in scrap, in addition to rework and sorting costs. Never made any sense to me, but someone in the company was getting a big bonus for meeting their goal of energy "savings" so it continues to this day.

 

[Time2]

Humidity levels do more than just make the home uncomfortable. If left unchecked it can result in some serious mold and mildew problems in carpets, curtains, clothes, and even walls. I remember all too clearly these problems in the 70s when I lived in a beach cottage that had no air conditioning. The home where I am now has another new heat pump (in this area you are lucky if they last 12 years no matter what brand) as well as a dehumidifier that gets a workout. In the past month it has been raining quite a lot and the heat pump condensate line has been pumping water constantly as well as making the dehumidifier cycling.

Cheers!

I'm in NW Florida, humidity makes it uncomfortable for me. At one time I put a dehumidifier in a hallway and ran it. I found I could raise the temperature 4*F and still be comfortable because the humidity was lower. Humidity under 40%.

There was a problem though, the dehumidifier produces heat and the area around the humidifier got hotter.
I received a recall on my dehumidifier, it had caused fires and they would pay me (not enough) to cut the end of the cord of and return it. So, no longer have a dehumidifier.
This is a good reason to not oversize an air conditioner, an oversize air conditioner will not run as long, thus it won't remove as much water from the air.

 

[Walt34]

The grid can't be upgraded in time to handle the push to electric everything, so they'll instead force load shedding.

The wake up call is that this is not being done by legislation that can be publicly voted on, but by bureaucrat/zealots within the regulatory agencies.

I have to wonder if this might backfire on them. If bureaucrats/zealots will force load shedding, then that creates an opportunity for makers of whole house generators to take up the difference. I know I sure would.

And those of course are not near as efficient as power plants. But I'd have reliable electricity, not just when somebody else decided it was okay for me to have my A/C on.

 

[Spock]

I have to wonder if this might backfire on them. If bureaucrats/zealots will force load shedding, then that creates an opportunity for makers of whole house generators to take up the difference. I know I sure would.

And those of course are not near as efficient as power plants. But I'd have reliable electricity, not just when somebody else decided it was okay for me to have my A/C on.

They've got that covered. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is proposing a new policy that cuts allowed CO emission levels from backup generators.

Smaller gas generators would have to cut carbon monoxide emissions by 50 percent, and larger generators would have to cut emissions by up to 95 percent. Nearly all models currently available are expected to not be in compliance with the new standard.

Once the proposed rules come into effect, manufacturers would have to comply with them in just six months, a process that usually takes several years. The rules would also ban manufacturers from stockpiling noncompliant generators before the new standards are enacted.

 

[Texas Proud]

I have to wonder if this might backfire on them. If bureaucrats/zealots will force load shedding, then that creates an opportunity for makers of whole house generators to take up the difference. I know I sure would.

And those of course are not near as efficient as power plants. But I'd have reliable electricity, not just when somebody else decided it was okay for me to have my A/C on.

They've got that covered. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is proposing a new policy that cuts allowed CO emission levels from backup generators.

He mentioned whole house generators which from what I read is not covered by this rule...

 

[Spock]

He mentioned whole house generators which from what I read is not covered by this rule...

Take the wheels off a 10kw portable generator and it's a "whole house" generator. Mount a "whole house" generator on a pallet and its a portable generator. Auto-start is trival.

My guess is the work-around is going to be catalytic converters on small engines which drags along the O2 sensors and ECMs used on vehicles. The added cost has the desired result of removing another market for fossil fuel burning ICEs.

 

[jazz4cash]

An O2 sensor ECM setup for a stationary generator should not be prohibitive, especially if you can get a storage system to smooth out the loads. Now compliance/certification etc could be arbitrary and expensive!