Long-Haulers

[Chuckanut]

The Long-Haulers are a group of people who have lingering CV complications well after they seemed to be cured. It occurred to me that an area to address the issues of being a CV Long_Hauler might be useful.

I will start it by posting this link to Dr. Osterholm's recent podcast in which he discusses what we know, and the bigger subject of what we don't know about being a Long-Hauler.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-24-long-haulers/id1504360345

 

[spncity]

Quoting Dr. Richardson

James Richardson

Post Covid symptoms or Covid long haulers.

Recently, I have discovered 3 patients with CMV viremia that I wouldn’t expect to have had CMV. CMV is a virus that lays dormant (after an initial infection as a child) in bone marrow, kidneys and vascular endothelial cells. CMV is seen usually in AIDS patients, transplant patients, and rarely in patients after treatment with rituximab.

CMV can cause chronic fatigue, and it’s activation may be a consequence of a recent or remote infection with the Covid infection. This should be an easy thing to check.

If you are experiencing post Covid symptoms of fatigue, I would ask your doctor to check a CMV IgM and IgG and a CMV PCR. The IgM and IgG will determine if you have had a previous infection with CMV. The CMV PCR tests for active viremia due to CMV.

Knowledge is Power. Know that I am praying daily for anyone and everyone infected with Covid. You have my permission to share this post.

End quote (Emphasis mine)

Note: I don't know how to link to this as he posts on Facebook

 

[Cb]

Seeking analysis on post-covid health issues...

My wife and I were talking about C19 risks a few days ago. She gets a fair amount of her pandemic information from AM talk radio and thinks that we've overreacted to the virus.



She made the point that the IFR has been coming down steadily as time goes by. I countered, saying that while that's true, it's not a simple binary situation where you either die from covid or you recover fully, that there are also a multitude of potential post-infection health issues, like long-term or permanent loss of respiratory capacity, myocarditis, rashes, strokes, neurological impairment, ED, hair loss, etc, etc. She asked me how common those types of issues are. Good question...



I haven't found a good analysis of that or much in the way of data. I found an article that suggests that many of those issues are primarily associated with those who were hospitalized, and might be due to the protocols used in the early months.



Have any of you seen an analysis of those types of covid-related issues?

 

[Chuckanut]

My wife and I were talking about C19 risks a few days ago. She gets a fair amount of her pandemic information from AM talk radio and thinks that we've overreacted to the virus.



She made the point that the IFR has been coming down steadily as time goes by.

Have any of you seen an analysis of those types of covid-related issues?

Infection rate coming down? Where? In my county the rate has gone from 2.2% two months ago to 4.3% today. My state blasted through 1000 new infections a day ago.

We were doing great in late August.

The glowing embers will ignite any fuel that comes into contact with it. We are the fuel.

 

[Cb]

Infection rate coming down? Where? In my county the rate has gone from 2.2% two months ago to 4.3% today. My state blasted through 1000 new infections a day ago.

We were doing great in late August.

The glowing embers will ignite any fuel that comes into contact with it. We are the fuel.

I was refer to the infection fatality rate...in the very early days (when Northen Italy & NYC were on fire) there was concern that it might be as high as several percent, more recently it appears that it might be closer to ~0.7% for a 60 year old.



Because my wife and I are healthy, BMI <25, exercise regularly, with no comorbidities, and have been supplementing Vit. C, D, Zinc & NAC for months we might fare better than the average 60 y.o. couple.



But I have seen articles suggesting that 10-20% of individuals that recover could have long-term, perhaps permanent health issues. I have no insight as to whether most of those were severe cases that required hospitalization, O2 supplementation, heavy anti-viral regimens, intubation, etc.



FWIW - I'm in Ohio, and about a month ago we had fewer than 1,000 new cases daily, today we were over 5,000.

 

[braumeister]

I'm in Ohio, and about a month ago we had fewer than 1,000 new cases daily, today we were over 5,000.

I think the most useful number is the Rt (transmission rate). Back in July, Ohio's was under 1 (safe) but now it's up to 1.22 (worrying).

The only state under 1.0 now is Mississippi, so I have to wonder about their reporting accuracy.

Maine is the worst, and most of the summer they had been among the best.

https://rt.live

 

[Aerides]

The main issue seems to be there isn't terribly much research on this (yet) because it's not the priority, vs. lowering the death and infection rates.

And a lot of the initial wave of patients were never even diagnosed properly with covid due to the lack of testing (march-may) and never developed sufficient antibodies. So there's a whole lot of anecdotal and patient stories out there, but little published medical data. Yet.

The fatality rate has largely come down because as a society we better understand how it transmits and how to prevent the most vulnerable from exposure. Somewhat also better therapies, but nothing earth shattering.

I'm 51 with no health issues. My odds of dying if I catch it are minute. But I wouldn't even want to get a "regular" case because there's so little known about potential long term effects. Even if you don't get long haul, what has it done to lungs/hearts of those who recovered?

 

[WyomingLife]

This may have been posted already, and if so, I apologize. This is not a political post, I'm merely presenting information.

Exit polling on covid was curious: https://www.marketplace.org/2020/11...e-deeply-divided-on-covid-19-and-the-economy/.

We just held a national election during a pandemic and it doesn't appear that concerns about the disease were a dominant consideration. That is a data point that is both curious and troubling to me. It probably also reveals something deeper about social media, trust in science, messaging by leaders and related matters.

Social scientists will have a field day with this, I'm sure; and many a future Ph.D will be minted based on the analyses of these results.

 

[audreyh1]

I haven't found a good analysis of that or much in the way of data. I found an article that suggests that many of those issues are primarily associated with those who were hospitalized, and might be due to the protocols used in the early months.

Have any of you seen an analysis of those types of covid-related issues?

This links to some studies that indicate 50% to 80% of acute cases (those hospitalized) still experiencing symptoms 3 months later. Seems pretty high, but I’m sure there is more analysis out there and coming soon. We also know that even mild or asymptomatic cases in young folks can still have lingering effects such as myocarditis or lung damage based on surveys of college athletes and that it’s not rare at all. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-tragedy-of-the-post-covid-long-haulers-2020101521173

 

[wdwwildbill]

Long haulers are very similar to people with ME/*** which is a little known and less researched aliment that affects millions. Most people get this from having some type of viral infection and just can't recover. Hopefully with this becoming more frontline news there will be more research into this

 

[Time2]

Long haulers are very similar to people with ME/*** which is a little known and less researched aliment that affects millions.

Wow, didn't think I'd find that one.
This condition is called myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME)-like illness. ME was previously called chronic fatigue syndrome, (***).

 

[Aerides]

i don't know why C F S as an acronym is filtered into stars by the forum, but for those wondering why the *** posts...

 

[timo2]

Updates on Long-Haul COVID-19 Symptoms

This summary showed up yesterday, so I wanted to share. (apologies if it has already been posted). It's a little long, but some excerpts are:

"On December 3, the National Institutes of Health held a two-day seminar on what has come to be called long Covid, or long-haul Covid — cases of lingering symptoms that can last for weeks or months after an initial infection. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recently created a list of some of the persistent symptoms patients are experiencing, which include chest pain, brain fog, fatigue, and hair loss — with patients reporting many others as well.

Because these patients don’t all have the same symptoms, they will need different kinds of post-Covid care. And the NIH made clear that there are still many more questions than answers — including whose symptoms might linger for months, and how to treat them.

Almost a year into the pandemic, there have not yet been thorough, large-scale studies to determine the true prevalence of long Covid. But preliminary research suggests that somewhere between 10 percent and 88 percent of Covid-19 patients will experience at least one symptom for many weeks or months. Some of these can be life-altering; one study found that 50 percent of non-ICU patients reported a significant change to their cognitive functioning."

"Newson has 842 patient responses so far to a pilot survey, and she says the results “confirm my thoughts that long Covid is likely to be related to low hormone levels (estrogen and testosterone), which so far have been neglected with research.” Estrogen plays a key role in women’s health, and having abnormally low levels can lead to infertility, osteoporosis, lack of sex drive, and depression."

"Cardiovascular symptoms may arise from the coronavirus directly impacting the endothelium. These cells control vascular functions, including enzymes that direct blood clotting. The endothelium is also important for proper immune function, and its imbalance could help explain the cytokine storms seen in many patients with severe Covid-19 cases. “There’s no shortage of ways by which this virus can hurt the heart,” Topol concludes."

"The CDC is now calling a particular set of inflammatory symptoms in multiple organs after an initial infection multisystem inflammatory syndrome in adults, or MIS-A — after a similar post-viral condition that was first reported in children, called MIS-C. Both children’s and adults’ symptoms in these cases overlap with MCAS, with problems like chest tightness, abdominal pain, rash, and inflammation, strengthening the argument that mast cells may be involved."


https://www.vox.com/22166236/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-symptoms-heart-fatigue

 

[Alan]

Threads merged

 

[Rushmore]

Wow, didn't think I'd find that one.
This condition is called myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME)-like illness. ME was previously called chronic fatigue syndrome, (***).

I have chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia. In oct I had COVID. I didn’t get real sick, cold like symptoms, fatigue (slept pretty much 3days solid), lost my sense of taste and smell, gi symptoms particularly nausea.

Basically I’m better and grateful I didn’t get very sick, but it really flared my fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. I still have nausea and other gi symptoms, continue to need 11hrs of sleep at night, achy, lots of tingling and numbness in extremities. I’m not a long hauler(that I know of ) for lung stuff but am for other things. It’s changed my life...hopefully someday I’ll get it back

 

[Boho]

Psychosis

There's no mention of psychosis in the Containment Area and I saw a couple of recent articles about it, so...

Small Number of Covid Patients Develop Severe Psychotic Symptoms

A British study of neurological or psychiatric complications in 153 patients hospitalized with Covid-19 found that 10 people had “new-onset psychosis.” ...Physically, most of these patients didn’t get very sick from Covid-19...no respiratory problems, but they did have subtle neurological symptoms like hand tingling, vertigo, headaches or diminished smell. Then, two weeks to several months later, he said, they “develop this profound psychosis, which is really dangerous and scary to all of the people around them."...Also striking is that most patients have been in their 30s, 40s and 50s.

Some specific symptoms of the psychosis:

A 36-year-old nursing home employee in North Carolina who became so paranoid that she believed her three children would be kidnapped and, to save them, tried to pass them through a fast-food restaurant’s drive-through window.

A 30-year-old construction worker in New York City who became so delusional that he imagined his cousin was going to murder him, and, to protect himself, he tried to strangle his cousin in bed.

A 55-year-old woman in Britain had hallucinations of monkeys and a lion and became convinced a family member had been replaced by an impostor.

 

[MichaelB]

Threads merged

 

[bobbyr]

There's no mention of psychosis in the Containment Area and I saw a couple of recent articles about it, so...

Small Number of Covid Patients Develop Severe Psychotic Symptoms



Some specific symptoms of the psychosis:

wonder if steroids is part of what might drive that (since steroids are one of the main drugs given for COVID inflammation

 

[Boho]

wonder if steroids is part of what might drive that (since steroids are one of the main drugs given for COVID inflammation

Or getting off the steroids too soon.

 

[someguy]

Vascular/etc damage & long haul in vaccinated people

There's been plenty of news and publication of heart, lung, vascular, neurological, and long haul damage from SARS-COV2/COVID-19 in the mildly ill and even in the completely asymptomatic. There's also been plenty of news and publication that the various vaccines nearly completely prevent death and serious illness from COVID-19, but with the clear caveat that they may not prevent transmission of SARS-COV2.

Can one be vaccinated, subsequently have SARS-COV2 exposure, and still suffer the issues mentioned above? I'm not an MD, but based on the information above, it certainly seems a possibility and very much worth studying and considering. But I haven't seen any data or even discussion on that front.

Based on age, health, fitness, etc., personally, I was never particularly concerned about dying from COVID-19. The big grabber for me was the possibility of long-term substantial damage and/or problems, even in very mild cases.

 

[MichaelB]

threads merged

 

[Another Reader]

I have chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia. In oct I had COVID. I didn’t get real sick, cold like symptoms, fatigue (slept pretty much 3days solid), lost my sense of taste and smell, gi symptoms particularly nausea.

Basically I’m better and grateful I didn’t get very sick, but it really flared my fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. I still have nausea and other gi symptoms, continue to need 11hrs of sleep at night, achy, lots of tingling and numbness in extremities. I’m not a long hauler(that I know of ) for lung stuff but am for other things. It’s changed my life...hopefully someday I’ll get it back

Welcome to the club. Have you joined any of the on-line support groups and are you actively treating your symptoms?

 

[Another Reader]

Here's an interesting study from Britain on post-COVID syndrome.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.15.21249885v1

 

[Another Reader]

Here's the seminal article demonstrating viral persistence with COVID. It was out as a preprint for a couple of months prior to acceptance and publication by Nature.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03207-w

Not proven yet, but persistent virus may be present in many if not most long haul patients.

 

[sengsational]

... Can one be vaccinated, subsequently have SARS-COV2 exposure, and still suffer the issues mentioned above?...

I wouldn't worry about it. Once your immune system is trained by the vaccine, you'll probably not have symptoms. Or if you do have symptoms, those will be mild. If you have mild symptoms, the chances of significant endothelial damage, inflammation, and all of that are minimal. Not saying it won't happen to some very, very unlucky person, but seems like something one might be pretty safe ignoring.