Lumbar sclerosis/DDD Experiences?

[tb001]

I know I've seen some previous posts on this, but the search function isn't working for me. Any others have experience with bad lower back pain and what worked for them?

According to the MRI I have two herniated discs, moderate sclerosis in the joints and severe foraminal stenosis. At 50, this is putting a severe damper on my expected ER activities

I'm in PT, but curious if there are others who have experienced relief from this with PT or surgery.

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

You made it to 50 before it hit you...well done! PT worked for me, especially traction at first. Mackenzie stretching methods keep me out of trouble these days.

The docs may or may not tell you the stats about surgery, but I found that most who get surgery end up going back for a 2nd or 3rd sugery. About a third of the surgeries are helpful, a third of them make things worse, and a third do nothing. So surgery sounds to me like a last resort, or a response to a true emergency when you have no other options.

Measure your recovery progress by week or even month, NOT day by day. It takes a while due to the anatomy of the discs.

 

[tb001]

That is GREAT to hear that you’ve been able to manage it with PT! Have you been able to return to all of your former activities?

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

Yep. I'd say a full recovery. When it hit, I was unable to even stand up. Sometimes I still get the sciatic issues like a tingly foot, but it occurs less and less frequently.

 

[Dash man]

I’ve had lower back and cervical spine problems since 2006. PT is helpful, but not a cure. I see a pain management doctor who does nerve ablations that can relieve pain for six months or more. CBD oil works well if you get pharmaceutical grade. I occasionally take hydrocodone, but regularly take Tylenol for pain, but that is largely for arthritis related to my spine.

 

[Bamaman]

The medical world will automatically go into a protocol when it comes to back problems starting with physical therapy. Then they'll go to steroid shot series of three performed under fluroscope. Then more steroids. Ablations will come after that. They often do more steroid injections after that. And they save surgery for last in most cases.

My wife's got terrible arthritis with bone spurs and she had a laminectomy many years ago. And she's got another steroid shot scheduled in a week. We've been going through this protocol 20 years, but I suspect she's due for surgery. Her pain management doctor's just taking it step by step.

 

[harllee]

Check out TENS machine. You wear a patch in the area of pain and it gives a mild electrical stimulation. I don't know how it works but it does. I hurt my lower back helping DH after his knee replacement surgery. Xray showed degenerative spine etc. I have been doing PT for 6 weeks and it has helped. Trigger point massage therapy has helped too. But to be honest the Tens machine has helped the most. After I wear the Tens for an hour or so then little pain the rest of the day. They have wireless rechargeable ones on Amazon for around $30.

 

[W2R]

I know I've seen some previous posts on this, but the search function isn't working for me. Any others have experience with bad lower back pain and what worked for them?

According to the MRI I have two herniated discs, moderate sclerosis in the joints and severe foraminal stenosis. At 50, this is putting a severe damper on my expected ER activities

I'm in PT, but curious if there are others who have experienced relief from this with PT or surgery.

I don't have any more than the usual amount of (very minor) back trouble; in my case it's not even enough to bother seeing a doctor or PT about. So although I know enough about back pain to truly sympathize, I can't really help with what does and doesn't work. In my case, a heating pad and rest are really all I ever need. However your back problems sound much more serious and awful to endure; my sympathies. I hope that your doctor and/or PT can come up with something to help you.

 

[Time2]

In 2010 I woke with a spasm across my right buttocks and pain down my leg.
I was at the doctors office at 8am and said get me in you got to do something. He diagnosed a herniated disc, and gave meprednisone, a muscle relaxant and Hydrocodone, 2 weeks later, I finally could be someplace besides, in bed, on the couch, or crawling between the two. Just no position to get comfortable. I went back to the doc and he was surprised that the prednisone didn't get me back in action. I went for a year taking Hydrocodone and having terrible leg cramps and a very very tight muscle in my right leg, before I went back and ask for an MRI. For what it was worth.
It showed I had two herniated discs. I tried Physical therapy, massage, acupuncture and time. It got a little better, and finally most of the leg pain went a way and then the back pain was there, I might have a good day, but usually had back pain every day, go to bed wake up. Somewhere around 2016 I got another MRI and went to a surgeon, he said I wasn't in enough pain for surgery, I guess taking Hydrocodone and filling out a pain questionaire are not compatible! Slowly, very slowly it got to where I was having less and less pain. Although I still had bad days with back pain. I went to another surgeon in 2018, this guy said, with the xrays and MRI he took, he doesn't see any place that he can work on tho solve my pain, He said if I still had sciatica, then he could do something, but I didn't. So then we get to 2020, 2021 and I'm still having pain, I don't bend down to pick something up with out holding on to something to support my back, or load a dish in the dishwasher with out holding the counter. In March this year I built a sauna, I found I was bored while sitting in the sauna so I started doing two back exercises. Laying on my back knees up 1) I roll my butt up in the air, I do this 50 times two reps. 2) Knees up, I lift my butt and back so they are only supported on my feet and shoulder blades, again 50 time two reps. I was doing that twice a day morning and evening. I noticed I was starting to have fewer back aches and then on day I was loading the dishwasher and I wasn't holding the counter for support. Holy Macaroni Anyway, my back is much better since I started this, is it the heat? the exercise? or was it just time? I don't know, but I'm continuing the sauna and exercises. And I'm very thankful.

 

[Dash man]

An orthopedic surgeon that goes to my church told me that about one out of three hundred patients with spinal issues can be helped by surgery. As was mentioned before, it’s not unusual for a surgical patient to require several follow up surgeries. There’re reasons they push PT and other pain management methods rather than surgery.

 

[swakyaby]

DH suffered varying degrees of moderate to severe chronic low back pain with sciatica for the past 18 years. For acute episodes, he received much needed but temporary relief from chiropractors. He received 2 sets of epidural steroid injections that gave noticeable improvement, but only lasted several months. After a particularly bad acute episode, he received an MRI, but the neurosurgeon who reviewed it said that while he had herniated discs at 2 lumbar levels, it was not severe enough to explain his level of pain, and surgery would not be expected to improve his condition. DH said that he began experiencing very dark thoughts after this, as the level of pain was daily. He went back to his primary care physician and asked for another referral for an epidural steroid injection. Instead, his PCP suggested acupuncture. DH asked me what I thought. I said it was certainly worth a try.

DH went to an acupuncturist who had trained in China, and received 3 sessions over a course of 3 weeks. It was a huge improvement, and the symptoms have become manageable compared to before. But it never goes completely away.

I told my girlfriend whose DH has also been suffering from chronic low back pain. He decided to visit the same acupuncturist and later reported amazing results. She said her DH has a whole new personality. I would never have thought acupuncture was a real treatment option, until now.

 

[aja8888]

I don't have any more than the usual amount of (very minor) back trouble; in my case it's not even enough to bother seeing a doctor or PT about. So although I know enough about back pain to truly sympathize, I can't really help with what does and doesn't work. In my case, a heating pad and rest are really all I ever need. However your back problems sound much more serious and awful to endure; my sympathies. I hope that your doctor and/or PT can come up with something to help you.

Like you W2R, I have been lucky having no back problems as of now (77+ years). But I did have both hips replaced! And my golf game is back!

Some of my friends have had similar back issues as the OP, and went the surgery route, but even after that, the pain still is there, but less than before surgery.

 

[friar1610]

I just went through a spell of neck and lower back/glute/hamstring/quad pain for which 8 weeks of physical therapy was prescribed. The underlying cause was spinal arthritis in the areas which effect those muscles. The PT - and the “homework” I did quite diligently- only helped a little. I went back to my PCP and asked him what’s next short of a referral to someone who likes to do surgery. He prescribed meloxicam, a once-a-day NSAID that he said is often used for arthritis sufferers. I have had great results - in 2 days the pain was gone and I’ve been working my way back to my normal exercise routine with no ill effects.

I don’t really like the idea of using an NSAID indefinitely so I’m going to stop them once I’ve finished my 30 day scrip and see if the pain returns.

Meloxicam comes in 7.5 and 15 mg sizes; I’ve been on the 7.5. I’m 76 y.o.

 

[harllee]

DH suffered varying degrees of moderate to severe chronic low back pain with sciatica for the past 18 years. For acute episodes, he received much needed but temporary relief from chiropractors. He received 2 sets of epidural steroid injections that gave noticeable improvement, but only lasted several months. After a particularly bad acute episode, he received an MRI, but the neurosurgeon who reviewed it said that while he had herniated discs at 2 lumbar levels, it was not severe enough to explain his level of pain, and surgery would not be expected to improve his condition. DH said that he began experiencing very dark thoughts after this, as the level of pain was daily. He went back to his primary care physician and asked for another referral for an epidural steroid injection. Instead, his PCP suggested acupuncture. DH asked me what I thought. I said it was certainly worth a try.

DH went to an acupuncturist who had trained in China, and received 3 sessions over a course of 3 weeks. It was a huge improvement, and the symptoms have become manageable compared to before. But it never goes completely away.

I told my girlfriend whose DH has also been suffering from chronic low back pain. He decided to visit the same acupuncturist and later reported amazing results. She said her DH has a whole new personality. I would never have thought acupuncture was a real treatment option, until now.

I agree about acupuncture. It helped me when I was a young person with a back injury. Then when I was age 50 I had a terrible case of shingles and it left me with nerve pain. Acupuncture helped with the shingles nerve pain too. I think Medicare now pays for acupuncture for low back pain.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread-- a TENS machine has been a great help for my back. You can purchase a nice rechargeable wireless one on Amazon for $30.

 

[Bamaman]

I have mentioned many times my wife's been on medicine management for the last 20+ years by a pain management doctor. Her pain has been controlled by controlled meds--mostly a morphine sulfate cocktail. Spinal stenosis and terrible arthritis resulted in numerous, numerous surgeries since age 28.

In the last couple of years, the Federal Gov't has really come down on the states pushing them to reduce the use of controlled substances. And over the last year, the pain clinic has backed her down to 15% of the meds of the past. During this time, she's had terrible back problems AND the very dreaded mid foot fusion where her foot's full of screws and plates. It's 2 mos. in bed, 4 mos. in a wheelchair--and 12 month recovery. Instead of giving her just a little more pain meds, they continue to reduce her meds. And now, she cannot even sleep longer than 2 hrs. without excrutiating pain. The worse part is that the ortho surgeon depends on the pain mgmt. doctor for meds, and the pain mgmt. doctor depends on the surgeon--and neither communicates.

Some of the pain meds have changed, and one cost us $185 deductible--about $900 per month cost. Pain patients generally cannot work and are on disabiity--low income. So many have gone to the local black market to buy meds like heroin and some of that is laced with fentanyl. Every state has seen a big uptick in overdose deaths of citizens in pain. But all they want to do is get on television and say they are down 30% in prescriptions--but not mention the deaths. The pain management business just sucks.

 

[harllee]

Oh Bamaman, I am so sorry for your wife (and you). Is Medical Marijuana a possibility for your wife?

 

[Teacher Terry]

When I worked in vocational rehabilitation the clients that had neurosurgeons if they chose surgery had much better outcomes than the ones that used a orthopedic surgeon. My 2nd ex husband had a ruptured disc removed at age 31 and 44 years later he is fine and it was done by a neurologist.

 

[folivier]

Lots of good ideas. I have 2 herniated discs at L3 and L4. I've been seeing a pain doc (anethesiologist) who does a nerve ablation in his office which will give me relief for 6+/- months. It doesn't take away all of the pain but does give me lots of relief and allows me to function. I also take CBD oil sublingually daily and that has allowed me to quit NSAIDs which I was taking daily. Therapy has never helped much. I do use a TENS unit on occasion and that does help.
I do have to be careful what I do and how I do things. Can't bend over for more than a few minutes, can't pick up or carry heavy things more than a short distance. I do feel weakness in my lower back and as the ablation wears off it gets weaker. Thankfully no pain radiating down my legs. But at 67 I'm fairly active and plan to avoid surgery as long as the above helps.
Good luck. Lots of options to avoid surgery.

 

[harllee]

Lots of good ideas. I have 2 herniated discs at L3 and L4. I've been seeing a pain doc (anethesiologist) who does a nerve ablation in his office which will give me relief for 6+/- months. It doesn't take away all of the pain but does give me lots of relief and allows me to function. I also take CBD oil sublingually daily and that has allowed me to quit NSAIDs which I was taking daily. Therapy has never helped much. I do use a TENS unit on occasion and that does help.
I do have to be careful what I do and how I do things. Can't bend over for more than a few minutes, can't pick up or carry heavy things more than a short distance. I do feel weakness in my lower back and as the ablation wears off it gets weaker. Thankfully no pain radiating down my legs. But at 67 I'm fairly active and plan to avoid surgery as long as the above helps.
Good luck. Lots of options to avoid surgery.

Folivier, can you tell us about ablation? I hurt by back about 3 months ago, fortunately it is better due to PT and TENS but the doctor mentioned I might be a candidate for ablation but I had never heard of it before.

 

[folivier]

Harllee it depends on the doc and his practice, my doc's previous practice would only do an ablation under anesthesia at a surgery center. Now he does them in his office with just a local and a Xanax. Basically an ablation is the doc locating the nerves then using RF waves to burn the nerves that cause the pain. The nerves do grow back in 6 months or so so this is only a temporary solution. If done with a local there is some discomfort and a bit of pain but I'm conscious and chatting the entire time, which is less than 15 minutes. I don't mind the discomfort since the recovery is much less than going under a general. Recovery takes a couple weeks since he also injects a steroid and pain medicine. Once that wears off the daily pain may increase for a couple more weeks then I get the main relief that lasts 6 months or so. This is just my experience and understanding so talk to your doc.

 

[tb001]

Thanks to all who have responded! I have a bunch of questions, but I’m away from a computer this weekend, so will follow up later this week.

Foliver, I’m curious with the ablation, are you able to return to normal athletic things? I worry that something like that is just masking the pain, so you may be doing more damage?

It sounds like a full recovery is less common than I’d hoped. It’s interesting that more haven't mentioned chiropractors. I tend to think they’re quacks, but in desperation went to one last year and I’ll admit, it was the best my back felt in ages. He was vehemently anti mask during the worst part of covid here, so I didn't go back, but it left me wondering if it would be helpful.

 

[harllee]

Harllee it depends on the doc and his practice, my doc's previous practice would only do an ablation under anesthesia at a surgery center. Now he does them in his office with just a local and a Xanax. Basically an ablation is the doc locating the nerves then using RF waves to burn the nerves that cause the pain. The nerves do grow back in 6 months or so so this is only a temporary solution. If done with a local there is some discomfort and a bit of pain but I'm conscious and chatting the entire time, which is less than 15 minutes. I don't mind the discomfort since the recovery is much less than going under a general. Recovery takes a couple weeks since he also injects a steroid and pain medicine. Once that wears off the daily pain may increase for a couple more weeks then I get the main relief that lasts 6 months or so. This is just my experience and understanding so talk to your doc.

Folivier, thanks for the interesting info. I never knew about this, especially interesting that the nerves grow back in 6 months. One question--how do they determine which nerve to burn? I really don't have much sciatica (just a little in the buttocks area), my pain is mainly in the spine area in the middle of my back. If you don't have sciatica do they do ablation?

 

[folivier]

I'm certainly not a doctor so this is just my experience with my pain doc. He (and I'm sure all of them) uses an x-ray to determine which nerves to target. Once he finds the correct nerve he'll insert a catheter and send an impulse to make certain he's on the correct nerves(s). He calls this the thumper since it'll cause your leg to jump with the impulses. Then he'll use the RF waves to "burn" or destroy that nerve. For my procedures he targets both sides.
This doesn't cure the problem with my back but mainly reduces the pain. I have complete function. Now I'm no athlete and when I overdo things I will get pain. But mostly this eliminates or minimizes the daily aching and pain. I no longer take any pain pills and since I've been using CBD oil I no longer take NSAIDs.
He also gives me the choice between doing this with a local or a general in a surgery center. Doing this with a local is a much quicker recovery since you're awake the entire time and I'm in and out in less than an hour total time. I was a little concerned the first time but the Xanax helped.
Hope this helps, for me it does and is keeping me from having surgery. I probably will have to have surgery at some point but will do this as long as it has the desired effect. And hopefully surgical or other techniques will have better outcomes by the time I need it.

 

[67walkon]

Back issues suck! I've had it for years. I had one surgery 8 or 9 years ago for a really badly herniated disk.

These days, I wake up with a stiff lower back. I use a heating pad for 30 minutes. I stretch. I ride a bike or walk every day. The bike is great. Walking is uncomfortable for the first 1.5 or so miles and then my back loosens up. My pain is mostly in my buttocks and my left leg tends to get numb if I stand around.

Stretching helps. Tylenol helps. Inversion helps. Exercise helps. It all helps a little but nothing totally cures it. PS, it feels perfect right now!

 

[NoiseBoy]

In March this year I built a sauna, I found I was bored while sitting in the sauna so I started doing two back exercises. Laying on my back knees up 1) I roll my butt up in the air, I do this 50 times two reps. 2) Knees up, I lift my butt and back so they are only supported on my feet and shoulder blades, again 50 time two reps. I was doing that twice a day morning and evening.

Can you explain exercise 1 better please? I understand 2, but don't see the difference with 1, or what you are doing first, I guess.