Money Mustache Fires Back at Suze Orman ($500K to retire vs $5 Million)

[Milton]

I just don’t believe in the MMM philosophy that [-]infers[/-] implies you need to work or lower your standard of living after ER.

Fixed.

Used to like Ms Orman, but she has become tiresome for me. While I’m sure she and anyone in her business has seen many cases where retired ran into a problem and didn’t have as much left they had counted on, I have come to realize that even in retirement stuff happens and you have to adjust. Happens all through your working years so why would you expect that it will stop once you retire.

She tries to persuade would-be early retirees not to retire by using the personal example of taking care of her >90-year-old mother. Allegedly, she paid out $30,000 per month for 7.5 years (total = $2.7 million). Fine, but what exactly does that prove? I'm unconvinced that we must work well past normal FI merely to provide for the possibility of later discretionary spending.

 

[FinancialDave]

No, but $500K is the acceptable number for Money Mustache and his crowd, if you have followed his blog and followers.

That is true, but I think I just read MMM cleared $400k income from his Blog last year. I think I could be happily retired with that kind of income, but it's not really being retired is it. The whole FIRE idea is about financial independence not really being retired at all. The two are not really equal in my book as most of the "financially independent" crowd has just traded one boss (someone other than theirself) for a new boss (themself). The success rate of that endeavor is not guaranteed, not like the guarantee of an FDIC insured CD from a $5 million savings account would be.

You can't compare two groups of people and their retirement income needs without knowing what retirement means to them and I am pretty sure the retirement that Suze is talking about is not the retirement MMM is talking about.

The other variable is the fact that there are a whole range of incomes that someone will be happy with and can survive on. They range from $0, living off the grid, to thousands of dollars per month. But let's be real about that range because the person living off the grid for $0 is NOT retired in my sense of the word as they have to work 7 days a week just to stay alive. They may be considered financially independent, but they don't survive without working.

Dave

 

[firedata]

I think they are just different points on the same spectrum. People respond differently to financial messaging but they espouse many similar points: most importantly, don't spend what you don't have, save money for retirement, etc. . . MMM is a bit more strident in what he deems okay purchases while Suze seems more in the "it's okay if you can afford it" camp.

Some of the more frugal minded folks will like MMM more, while those who just want to be financially comfortable and are less inclined to retire early will like Suze more. Also MMMers are probably a little bit more optimistic and maybe willing to accept a little more risk/uncertainty in their retirement, while Suze followers will be a bit more conservative.

Ultimately, it's helpful to have multiple voices getting people to get people into financial discipline even if it's not as hardcore as some of us would be.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Someone started a thread saying that Mrs MM stated on her blog that they are divorced. So lots of speculation if they both can afford to stay fired.

 

[523HRR]

I think I just read MMM cleared $400k income from his Blog last year. I think I could be happily retired with that kind of income, but it's not really being retired is it.

+1

I was never able to embrace the MMM blog due to the lack of transparency around his assets and income. Ultimately, it looks like he just made a career change, not retired. And it appears to have worked out quite well for him financially.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I doubt he knew it would be that successful. He rarely posts anymore. I read that he made 300k but they were donating all of it to charity.

 

[superdave]

The only way to retire with 500k is if you have subsidized health insurance.

or live in Canada

 

[pj.mask]

I doubt he knew it would be that successful. He rarely posts anymore. I read that he made 300k but they were donating all of it to charity.

Lack of transparency. The more you look into it. ‘I don’t have a car but my business does. My business needed a add on room on the back of my property. My business needs first class flights to attend events in fun destinations but none of those count in my budget.’

Let’s be real, if we were frugal and went from $1million in savings to $5-10million we may enjoy some frugal hobbies like riding out bike or bargain shopping but chances are he is spending a bit more here or there but it doesn’t seem to be reported on his blog.

 

[Bryan Barnfellow]

or live in canada

+1

-Bryan B.

 

[Teacher Terry]

PJ, yes his business expenses do bug me. They aren’t living on 25k/year. People are speculating if money had anything to do with their split on the forum.

 

[W2R]

PJ, yes his business expenses do bug me. They aren’t living on 25k/year. People are speculating if money had anything to do with their split on the forum.

I am probably overly critical of him for this reason. He might be a very nice guy. I don't know him in person, but based on his publicly available writings he seems extremely deceitful (whether that is intentional or not... maybe it is a publicity stunt?).

Like many women, I would never want to spend my life with a deceitful man.

 

[Major Tom]

I am probably overly critical of him for this reason. He might be a very nice guy. I don't know him in person, but based on his publicly available writings he seems extremely deceitful (whether that is intentional or not... maybe it is a publicity stunt?)

There is such an abundance of hubris in the way that site is presented, that I have only visited it a handful of times. The attitude of the site host was a big turnoff for me.

I'm very interested in reading about people who follow low income and frugal lifestyles - especially the folk doing it in different and creative ways. I also like authenticity though - a lot.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Lack of transparency. The more you look into it. ‘I don’t have a car but my business does. My business needed a add on room on the back of my property. My business needs first class flights to attend events in fun destinations but none of those count in my budget.’

Let’s be real, if we were frugal and went from $1million in savings to $5-10million we may enjoy some frugal hobbies like riding out bike or bargain shopping but chances are he is spending a bit more here or there but it doesn’t seem to be reported on his blog.

I stopped reading the blog, but in the past I noticed if you add back in many of the spending categories he either left off his budget (or were implausibly low) like home improvements, business entertainment expenses, travel, dental checkups, gas usage compared to long driving vacations, free gifts the rest of us would have to purchase, income taxes and health care he probably actually spends more than average.

I have books like The Tightwad Gazette and while I may not want to be quite that cheap, every description of their actual spending habits in three volumes of books all seem pretty plausible.

 

[Texas Proud]

Not sure of what is real and what is not.... but MM seems very fake to me...


I read a few of his posts and thought fraud quickly.... have now read where he makes $300K or so on his blog... but claims to not spend it... yea, right... you retired with $500K total and now bringing in $300K per year and do not touch it...

 

[Bestwifeever]

His wife (ex-wife?) appears to have a shop where she sells $7 bars of artisan soap, and it doesn’t appear to be just a hobby. Maybe a hint of irony in that sentence.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

His wife (ex-wife?) appears to have a shop where she sells $7 bars of artisan soap, and it doesn’t appear to be just a hobby. Maybe a hint of irony in that sentence.

$7 artisan soap doesn't seem to fit in with living frugally, at least not if you're the buyer. I found out the glycerin soap we like was manufactured in our local area, so I buy a case at a time from the warehouse at wholesale prices.

 

[bada bing]

One thing that strikes me about the difference in what Suze is advocating verses what MMM is advocating is that Suze is putting out what will work even if everybody tries to do it. The intense frugality and shedding of work of Mr MM is only economically viable as long as it is a minority doing it. We can't all qualify for ACA subsidies, pay little or no income tax for the majority of our adult lives, eventually take SS at the lower range, etc.

That is one reason I didn't click with the vibe at MMM forums. Some of the technical stuff is useful, as far as it goes, but there is a pretty heavy dose of overt virtue signalling that goes on there. I'm personally guilty of virtue signalling myself, but from a different angle. I feel sometimes that a quote from one of our past leaders is appropriate "You didn't build that". If you're living on $25K as a young adult while avoiding work, your not really fully paying your own way.

 

[Maenad]

‘I don’t have a car but my business does. My business needed a add on room on the back of my property. My business needs first class flights to attend events in fun destinations but none of those count in my budget.’

I've gotten the impression that he honestly feels like these things are business expenses, or experiments that he funds only with his blog income (which as people have noted is HYUGE), and could drop without any decrease in his happiness. Which is plausible.

However, he's still getting satisfaction/pleasure/happiness/what-have-you from them. There's still a benefit in being able to buy a building and turn it into a co-working space for entrepreneurs, etc. So he is still getting a benefit from increased spending that he wouldn't otherwise have, and it muddies the waters, making it impossible to really know if he'd be happy on his original budget, today.

Plus, MMM isn't Pete. MMM is a persona, like Alice Cooper. Provocative writings that help us look at ourselves more clearly and really analyze why we're doing what we're doing are ultimately helpful, even when the people writing them are human and don't live up to ideals.

 

[ncbill]

There is such an abundance of hubris in the way that site is presented, that I have only visited it a handful of times. The attitude of the site host was a big turnoff for me.

I'm very interested in reading about people who follow low income and frugal lifestyles - especially the folk doing it in different and creative ways. I also like authenticity though - a lot.

Yeah, that's why I miss Amy D., the Tightwad Gazette creator.

Don't remember such from her.

Wish she had a website.

Here's a 2014 interview with her:

https://www.thesimpledollar.com/an-interview-with-amy-dacyczyn-the-author-of-the-tightwad-gazette/

 

[gwraigty]

I read his blog several years ago for a brief time. I quit when he kept belittling people who said that it just wasn't safe for them to ride bicycles instead of cars in their communities. Among other things, as if his way is the only right way.

 

[Milton]

Plus, MMM isn't Pete. MMM is a persona, like Alice Cooper. Provocative writings that help us look at ourselves more clearly and really analyze why we're doing what we're doing are ultimately helpful, even when the people writing them are human and don't live up to ideals.

You must LOVE Derek Foster.

 

[Major Tom]

Yeah, that's why I miss Amy D., the Tightwad Gazette creator.

Don't remember such from her.

Wish she had a website.

Here's a 2014 interview with her:

https://www.thesimpledollar.com/an-interview-with-amy-dacyczyn-the-author-of-the-tightwad-gazette/

Thanks for the link to the interview. I think that The Tightwad Gazette was my first real and consistent exposure to frugal thinking in the world of "outside media" (as opposed to the exposure I had at home when growing up).

 

[Bestwifeever]

I've gotten the impression that he honestly feels like these things are business expenses....

Plus, MMM isn't Pete. MMM is a persona, like Alice Cooper. Provocative writings that help us look at ourselves more clearly and really analyze why we're doing what we're doing are ultimately helpful, even when the people writing them are human and don't live up to ideals.

I know what you’re saying and manh people probably agree with you. It’s funny that people can have business expenses yet consider themselves retired. And Alice Cooper’s stage persona is a very obvious character—are you saying that MMM is just a weird character who propounds a very hard-core cultish philosophy while the person behind it seems to live very differently?

 

[Milton]

It’s funny that people can have business expenses yet consider themselves retired.

Funny, indeed!

Actions speak louder than words.

MMM is just a weird character who propounds a very hard-core cultish philosophy while the person behind it seems to live very differently

Not like he would be the first hypocritical cult leader.

 

[kgtest]

I stopped reading the blog, but in the past I noticed if you add back in many of the spending categories he either left off his budget (or were implausibly low) like home improvements, business entertainment expenses, travel, dental checkups, gas usage compared to long driving vacations, free gifts the rest of us would have to purchase, income taxes and health care he probably actually spends more than average.

I have books like The Tightwad Gazette and while I may not want to be quite that cheap, every description of their actual spending habits in three volumes of books all seem pretty plausible.

I too noticed this the first and last time I read the blog. I also noticed he cherry-picked or even manufactured a lot of the comments he let through on the hosted site.


Blogging that produced revenue = NOT FIRE
Blogging that does not produce revenue while financially independent with no other actively managed income (beyond investments) FIRE


When you are flying around the world committed to delivering speeches for pay, that is not FIRE.


Some of these bloggers need to admit it...they had too much time on their hands, created a blog, then scaled to a brand and business, and now are basically not retired or unemployed or whatever anymore. They got lucky, they monetized a hobby into an income stream and they maintain it by putting in hours dedicated to that, and not like hiking or sitting in a hot tub.


I would not feel comfortable retiring with a potential 40yr horizon on less than 1.5mil but that is just me. If you have kids, add another million.