Movie "I Care A Lot" - question about accuracy (No spoilers)

[JoeWras]

T
The guardian and accomplices do move fast on her assets, stopping along the way to celebrate because there is so much more wealth than they had realized. This struck me as (I hope) speeded up for the sake of moving the plot along. I wondered why there wasn't someone looking over the guardian's shoulder and demanding a full accounting, as happens with an estate executor. Then again, the point is made that there are so many "wards," and everyone in the System is so overwhelmed, that it's impossible to keep track of every move the guardians make.

It was mentioned earlier, but the NewYorker article on April Parks is worth a read. Things moved fast and there was not a lot of oversight.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights

A month after removing the Norths from their house, Parks petitioned to make the guardianship permanent. She was represented by an attorney who was paid four hundred dollars an hour by the Norths’ estate. A hearing was held at Clark County Family Court.

I bolded the "was paid ... by the Norths' estate" on purpose. Not only do you lose control of your life, all court proceedings are paid by you, including the lawyer representing the guardian.

You have to trust that the courts and legal system have your best interest in mind. Once you go over the cliff, it is hard to come back because you have no resources to challenge it. That's what bugs me. In almost every other legal setting, challenges (defenses, contesting) are a part of the process. However with the guardianship, you ask the court and hope they do the right thing because you've become a non-entity. Having a third party advocate also helps.

Britney Spears is trying to get a Trust company named as her sole conservator. The court keeps including her father as co-conservator. It has me wondering if I can't set something up ahead of time to avoid having unexpected guardians. Seems like a good topic to discuss with our lawyer the next time we update our will and documents.

 

[Golden sunsets]

DH freaked out after Diane Weitz was taken off to the care facility and refused to watch the rest of the movie. I watched the whole thing and (no spoilers) told him that justice prevailed and it wasn't so much a movie about elder abuse as it was a a thriller with a lot of other things going on. Man.... Rosalind Pike playes a great bad girl. She was great in Gone Girl too.

DH reminded me of a chilling story my Dad told us about a couple that were friends of his. Their son took them for a Sunday drive and then dropped them off at a boarding house. The son had convinced his parents to put their home in his name which he then sold. Meanwhile, the daughter, who lived 3000 miles away, not to be outdone by her brother proceeded to drain her parents bank account. My Dad visited them and heard the story directly from his friend. Several other friends tried to get an elder attorney involved but to my knowledge, both parents soon passed away.

 

[Amethyst]

In the movie, the care facility (run by a crook in the guardian's pay) takes away the trapped woman's cell phone, and won't let her have it back without the guardian's permission - which she knows isn't coming. Again it surprised me that she did not take the opportunity, in the car on the way to the facility, to call someone she knew and let them know what was happening.

Aside from the 4th amendment issue here, which I guess is obviated by guardianship, is there any way regular old folks' homes wouldn't allow the inmates to use the Internet? Does no one get to keep their phone? Are there no computers?

These things just didn't add up about the movie.

 

[target2019]

Sounds like an interesting movie to watch tonight.

I think how far these things can go is determined by the state you live in.

 

[Music Lover]

We tried to watch the movie tonight but gave up after 5 minutes. The opening court scene was too unrealistic/over the top for us so we didn't bother to watch the rest.

 

[target2019]

That is a good movie to watch if you need to know how to make a bad movie.
That is a good movie to watch for examples of actors and actresses trying their best to improve a bad movie. At times they succeed!
That is a good movie to watch for an example of how annoying and bad a sound track can be.
I could go on, but there would be spoilers.

 

[skipro33]

A guardianship is overseen by the courts for a whole lot longer than just the initial ruling. Every guardian has a whole lot of paperwork to document every single penny that is collected and distributed that the ruling is committing due to their mental condition. A guardianship does not allow for payment of service, at least in California as it was explained to me when I and my brother took over our father's financial POA. But, because my father did have a Financial POA, we avoided the judge and a guardianship. But just barely. We kept excellent records though anyway, so that when Dad passed away, no one listed on the will could sue us when the funds were distributed. Well, they could sue us, just wouldn't get anything since we kept all his income and expenses well documented to prove we didn't touch a penny for payment of our services.

 

[JoeWras]

A guardianship does not allow for payment of service, at least in California as it was explained to me when I and my brother took over our father's financial POA.

Britney Spears father and lawyers are most definitely being paid.

The last exposed court document puts his pay at $128k per year. Consider it is LA, and consider the complexity of this case, I'd say that is fair if he is doing all that he must do.

In the NYT documentary, it came out that one of the lawyers wanted to really ramp up the pay due to the complexity, and was denied.

So... perhaps for simple cases, it is not worth asking the court for a salary. But there is a provision in CA for payment somewhere in the law, as is obvious from the Spears case.

 

[skipro33]

Britney Spears father and lawyers are most definitely being paid.

The last exposed court document puts his pay at $128k per year. Consider it is LA, and consider the complexity of this case, I'd say that is fair if he is doing all that he must do.

In the NYT documentary, it came out that one of the lawyers wanted to really ramp up the pay due to the complexity, and was denied.

So... perhaps for simple cases, it is not worth asking the court for a salary. But there is a provision in CA for payment somewhere in the law, as is obvious from the Spears case.

I don't think those are payment, those are his expenses and he has to justify them to the court.

 

[pb4uski]

In the Netflix movie, "I Care A Lot," an evil woman connives with an evil doctor and a stupid judge to obtain "emergency" guardianship of old people who have money, but no one to look out for them. The doctor exaggerates patients' early dementia to make it seem as if they are a danger to themselves. An "Emergency" guardianship hearing is held, unbeknownst to the victim.

The evil guardian shows up at a rich old woman's door with a court order. The old woman questions this, so the guardian shows her some police officers and a squad car with lights flashing. The intimidated woman assents, is allowed to pack one suitcase, and is driven to a care facility where they take away her cellphone. The guardian and accomplices quickly strip the woman's home, auction the contents, put it up for sale and take over all her other assets.

The whole thing came across like the Nazis knocking on the door and dragging people off to Auschwitz. Since we don't live in Nazi Germany, my question: What would have happened if the old woman (who, according to the script, had some problems but was capable of living alone) have said "No, thanks," closed the door, and called her lawyer? Could the police have taken action to remove the woman against her will?

If there is a court order, of course they could.

IME being a court-appointed guardian two times, I don't see this as plausible, though I guess in the event of collusion that anything is possible.

Emergency guardianship was relatively easy to obtain. It required recommendation of her medical professionals and in our case, her family. The judge actually came to the hospital and interviewed the medical professionals, my grandmother, me and may aunt as I recall and granted the emergency guardianship on the spot... but that only lasts for a hoirt period of time.

The process is very geared to protecting the proposed ward. In both of my cases, the proposed ward was assigned legal counsel to represent them and their interests. The court sought input from the proposed ward's medical professionals and ordered an interview and report from an independent psychiatrist, etc.

You would need at least 5 people acting in collusion to pull it off, and probably more since court stenographers, court clerks and others are potential whistleblowers.

 

[JoeWras]

https://www.courts.ca.gov/cms/rules/index.cfm?title=seven&linkid=rule7_756

2021 California Rules of Court

Rule 7.756. Compensation of conservators and guardians
(a) Standards for determining just and reasonable compensation
The court may consider the following nonexclusive factors in determining just and reasonable compensation for a conservator from the estate of the conservatee or a guardian from the estate of the ward:
(1) The size and nature of the conservatee's or ward's estate;
(2) The benefit to the conservatee or ward, or his or her estate, of the conservator's or guardian's services;
(3) The necessity for the services performed;



....

 

[Amethyst]

The movie proposed that there is so much money in guardianship, it is very possible to suborn the required number of people. Of course they hammed it up in the movie - people laughing about the victims behind their backs, etc.

This thread seems to support that victims who don't have a strong family system can, indeed, be wrongly labeled "incompetent," be kidnaped, and their effects ransacked.

If there is a court order, of course they could.

IME being a court-appointed guardian two times, I don't see this as plausible, though I guess in the event of collusion that anything is possible.

Emergency guardianship was relatively easy to obtain. It required recommendation of her medical professionals and in our case, her family. The judge actually came to the hospital and interviewed the medical professionals, my grandmother, me and may aunt as I recall and granted the emergency guardianship on the spot... but that only lasts for a hoirt period of time.

The process is very geared to protecting the proposed ward. In both of my cases, the proposed ward was assigned legal counsel to represent them and their interests. The court sought input from the proposed ward's medical professionals and ordered an interview and report from an independent psychiatrist, etc.

You would need at least 5 people acting in collusion to pull it off, and probably more since court stenographers, court clerks and others are potential whistleblowers.

 

[pb4uski]

Perhaps, but if I were a senior and a bunch of greedy people were colluding to rob me of my freedom and life savings I think I would just start shooting and take my chances with the criminal justice system.

 

[Gumby]

That thought had occurred to me as well.

 

[pb4uski]

If that happened just a couple times I suspect it would nip the problem in the bud.

 

[Music Lover]

Perhaps, but if I were a senior and a bunch of greedy people were colluding to rob me of my freedom and life savings I think I would just start shooting and take my chances with the criminal justice system.

Of course that only works if you are competent enough to know you're being ripped off. Then again, if you are competent and they've convinced the court that you're not then they've also provided you with your defense.

 

[Amethyst]

If you are not competent, and are so alone that a guardian is needed, then you are headed for an unfortunate ending no matter what.

The lady in the movie was fully able to take care of herself day-to-day, although she did not think as quickly as she should have. She did have some issues apparently. The movie's premise was that her doctor had identified her as a prime victim: all alone, slightly confused, and rich. The doctor got a payoff from the guardian.

Be careful about your doctor!

Of course that only works if you are competent enough to know you're being ripped off. Then again, if you are competent and they've convinced the court that you're not then they've also provided you with your defense.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

If you are not competent, and are so alone that a guardian is needed, then you are headed for an unfortunate ending no matter what.

The lady in the movie was fully able to take care of herself day-to-day, although she did not think as quickly as she should have. She did have some issues apparently. The movie's premise was that her doctor had identified her as a prime victim: all alone, slightly confused, and rich. The doctor got a payoff from the guardian.

Be careful about your doctor!

I think your original post should be tagged with SPOILER ALERT because you do reveal a lot about the movie whether intentional or not.

 

[Amethyst]

Oh, I'm so bad. Maybe I'm getting confused! Eek!

I think your original post should be tagged with SPOILER ALERT because you do reveal a lot about the movie whether intentional or not.

 

[firemediceric]

I'm wondering what actually would occur if the "ward" refused to leave the home, and shut the door. I mean, what would you do, in the old woman's place?

I'm late to this thread but I'm starting at the beginning and going through the posts. I am a registered professional guardian in Florida. To answer your question about the ward refusing to leave the home, if the guardian is indeed guardian of the person or plenary guardian of person and property, the guardian can enlist law enforcement to compel compliance.


I have never needed to do that nor is law enforcement quick to get involved. I have however used law enforcement to enforce a judge's order requiring a free loader exploiting an incapacitated individual to be removed and trespassed from a ward's home. The judge's order specifically called for law enforcement to assist.


I have am usually successful in transitioning a ward to an ALF by being persistent and not taking no for an answer. Other ways it may happen is upon discharge from a hospital. The incapacitated person gets picked up by law enforcement or EMS. They may be taken to an emergency room which turns into a hospital stay or they may be the subject of a Baker Act/involuntary mental health evaluation hold. From there they may transitioned into an ALF.


Whenever possible though, if finances allow, I prefer to allow the ward to remain in their home with adequate care. On some of my ward's that is twice daily visits from CNA's who ensure medication compliance. With some wards it may be them having a family member move in and with others it is paying for 24/7 CNA care.

 

[firemediceric]

While I have not seen the movie, this can be a problem and a recent thread in a lawyers forum illustrated to me that it's not an isolated problem. The Britney Spears case is one famous case (although she isn't "imprisoned" as can happen in the worst cases) Here is some reading for you:

https://www.ktnv.com/news/contact-1...ship-abuse-case-says-it-s-not-about-the-money

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/nyregion/court-appointed-guardianship-like-prison.html

And one of the most egregious abuses by an attorney...it got her 40 years in prison:

https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime...er Nevada guardian,for much of Friday morning.

A story prior to the attorney going to prison:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights

This woman gave all guardians a black eye. I never met her but I was asked to assume several of her cases.


https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando...ested-embattled-florida-professional-guardian

 

[firemediceric]

I read the New Yorker story about April Parks's horrible racket. It was never clear to me whether the old people only went along with her because they were intimidated, or whether she actually could compel them to go.

As guardian of the person I often, but not always, have delegated to me control of where the ward lives, travel and social aspects. That may be used in part to shield the ward from unscrupulous individuals who were exploiting the ward or perhaps even causing physical or mental harm.

 

[firemediceric]

So far, no one has actually addressed the question of what the woman, legally, could have done, other than go along with the bad guys. It's true, we find out more later on in the movie about what this particular woman might have done...but no spoilers.

I've tried looking it up but all I get is stuff about how you shouldn't let things get to "that point" (i.e. have a DPOA). Nothing about what to do when the knock comes on the door.

In Florida someone needs to petition the Court suggesting that the person is incapacitated and for their own good should have certain rights removed. Those may be the right to decide where to live, the right to contract, the right to marry, the right to make gifts, the right to make medical decisions, the right to manage money and make financial decisions, the right to travel and the right to choose social settings.


When the petition is made and the alleged facts are presented, if the Court finds substantial reason for concern, an attorney will be appointed to the AIP (alleged incapacitated person) and an examining committee of 3 will be appointed. The AIP will also be served with the court documents making them aware of the situation. Time frames are in place requiring the attorney to meet with the AIP. The AIP may certainly choose their own attorney. The three members of the court appointed examining committee will each meet individually with the AIP to provide their separate reports to the Court suggesting which if any rights should be removed from the AIP.

 

[firemediceric]

The little bit I’ve read on this indicates the predators probe and filter, looking for particularly vulnerable candidates that are susceptible to influence and direction, and have no one else looking out for them. So, people unlikely to challenge this when it happens.

Someone who has the wherewithal to stand up to one of these efforts would be discarded as a candidate, not worth the effort.

My mother worked as a home health care nurse, most of her patients were seniors. She often said it was not uncommon for nurses to develop relationships with seniors under their care, their objective ending to gain access to assets.

Seniors are a vulnerable population and predators are ruthless.

Without a doubt the seniors are vulnerable. I have many accounts of seniors losing so much to opportunistic CNA's, neighbors and even family. Gifts made. Wills changed. Loans co-signed.



I'm talking about everything from a Mercedes E-Class straight off the lot which was subsequently hid on Seminole land in south Florida to prevent law enforcement from finding the car and preventing the repo man I had contracted from being able to get the car back. That woman was eventually arrested on a bench warrant and brought before the judge everyday to be asked where the car was. After a couple of weeks she disclosed the location. In another case a CNA on the job for a few months became the sole beneficiary of a multi-million dollar estate and the man's family was written out of the will.



It seems seniors are especially vulnerable when a spouse passes. Especially if the deceased spouse was the stronger of the two in the marriage.

 

[firemediceric]

I don’t think there’s anything anyone can do at that point. Then, you need an advocate. The Britney Spears situation is a good example.

If I have a Ward tell me they want to have the guardianship rescinded or at least examined again it is incumbent upon me to notify the Court of the request by filing a Suggestion of Capacity. At that point it is up to the Judge to decide if an examining committee should evaluate the Ward again and if counsel should once again be appointed.


In my 10+ years of doing this, although I do not handle a lot of cases compared to some professional guardians, I have had only one Ward restored to full capacity regaining all of her rights. To be honest, I feel the Court erred in that case.