Not my ER: CamperForce

[marko]

Ah yes. And those things may be left out of the article.

My neighbor lost his house this way. Retired with a db plan from Megacorp, used the house equity to buy a $200k Class A camper, and announced to the neighbors he was going to dabble in day trading.

Then 2009 came along.

Despite the pension, he lost the house. He was very open about it while it was occurring, down to telling us the bank would never foreclose because he was too good of a customer. He actually played chicken with them.

I gotta say, it was eye opening to see how foreclosure goes, it was not pretty. 29 years in that house (multiple refinances) and it was all gone, just like that.

Similar story with my neighbor. Inherited the house she lived in all her life, re-mortgaged it to the hilt, inherited another house which she sold, state pension, income property.

Even though she had no high lifestyle, she blew through close to a $ million playing Keno, had to sell her house and now pays rent to the new owner. She's dead broke.

But then, I always told people that I owned dogs that were smarter than she was.

 

[athena53]

If they are broke and living in an RV they could live in a state with expanded Medicaid and get medical care for free if they are not old enough for Medicare. Also is seems like they would qualify for food stamps and maybe some other programs like senior housing. <snip>

I don't doubt there are seniors in financial difficulty but it seems like the first couple in the article should have at least two average SS checks coming in. Plus, both their life savings investments going to zero, not 50% loss but zero and never bouncing back seems unlikely even post 2008. The article does not seem well fact checked.

I'm not sure how Medicaid or other state-run programs apply to people with no fixed address.

The question of a second SS check occurred to me, too, but I believe the wife of that couple was 59- too early even to collect on her own record.

And yes, I wondered how savings could go to zero. My guess is that when the market crashed they still kept drawing down what they had, selling at greatly-reduced values, till nothing was left. Sad all around.

 

[jollystomper]

This is a good, sad, cautionary tale on "it is not what you make, it is what you do with it".

It is also good to remember that writers have their own point of view, and will tend to emphasize items that reinforce that point of view, and leave out things that may contradict it.

For some reason it reminds of the stories of young professional athletes who are given millions but end up broke within 3-4 years after leaving their sport (I believe an in-depth reports showed the rate was something like75-80%).

I often wonder if the subjects in these stories had people around them warning them, or at least challenging them to really consider their choices. That is what I have experienced in real life.

 

[marko]

It is also good to remember that writers have their own point of view, and will tend to emphasize items that reinforce that point of view, and leave out things that may contradict it.
.

And yet these articles keep popping up here on this forum where most folks are smart enough to see through them.
And yet we still read them and [-]spend[/-] waste our time responding with the same responses over and over.

Or is it like a car crash that you just have to look?

 

[jollystomper]

And yet these articles keep popping up here on this forum where most folks are smart enough to see through them.
And yet we still read them and [-]spend[/-] waste our time responding with the same responses over and over.

Or is it like a car crash that you just have to look?

Not really for me , it is more like:
- How did they end up in that situation?
- What can I do to minimize the odds of me ending up in that type of situation?

Similar to when I read stories about those doing better than I am:
- How did they end up in that situation?
- What can I do to increase my odds of being close to their situation?

 

[Fermion]

And yet we still read them and [-]spend[/-] waste our time responding with the same responses over and over.

What else are we going to do all day? Compare our deck sizes?

 

[marko]

Not really for me , it is more like:
- How did they end up in that situation?
- What can I do to minimize the odds of me ending up in that type of situation?

Similar to when I read stories about those doing better than I am:
- How did they end up in that situation?
- What can I do to increase my odds of being close to their situation?

I do that too; on real information based articles. But many of these "victim" articles have a distinct agenda, leaving out key points that don't fit with the narrative.

I hate it when I get all feeling bad for people and then start digging a bit deeper only to find that poor Mr X also had a crack/gambling addiction, is on his 6th wife or just decided that putting $400K in pork bellies was a good idea based on what his barber told him.

I try to avoid those.

 

[Koolau]

And what's the deal with the guaranteed 19% return on a fund that collapsed in 2008? Who would depend on something that risky, given that risk and reward are so closely tied in investing? We are supposed to feel sorry for him because his risky investment fell through? Plus, his nest egg was only $250K which is pretty underfunded, so one would expect that he'd have at least some slight idea of how to live on a shoestring (something many learn to do before they are even old enough to vote), but no.

Two guys I went to HS with ended up working at Megacorp with me - I even supervised each of them for a time. They started after I did, made way less money than I did and then bragged to me about how they were going to retire way earlier than me. They had found a "guru" to manage their money. The guru apparently was into writing covered calls. When it all went south, one guy sued and IIRC actually got a small recovery through arbitration. The other guy is still w*rking almost 15 years later (at age 70) repositioning cars. Neither of these guys ended up "homeless" but their life-styles took a huge hit, especially until they could get on SS. Even then, they have never really recovered financially.

I recall trying to council them to be very careful. Their guru was saying they could safely spend 8% of their nest egg. I wasn't a member of this Forum back then but shared with them the 4% rule I had learned here. 8% seemed a pipe dream to me - turns out it was a lead-pipe to the head for these guys. YMMV

 

[Teacher Terry]

In many places low income senior housing is very nice and they only charge you a third of your monthly income. I would be living there before I would live in an old RV.

 

[Sunset]

....
My neighbor lost his house this way. ........
..... it was eye opening to see how foreclosure goes, it was not pretty. 29 years in that house (multiple refinances) and it was all gone, just like that.

I saw people doing this in Kansas in 2,000 , when you suck $$ out of your house, stick it in stocks and make 50% or more per month. Every stock picked went up.

I generally think of it as a bad sign of financial management when people treat the house as a piggy bank.

 

[Tekward]

The wages are tight - >10 weeks for ~5K take home:

2016 Amazon CamperForce Review | Interstellar Orchard

 

[NW-Bound]

Two guys I went to HS with ended up working at Megacorp with me - I even supervised each of them for a time. They started after I did, made way less money than I did and then bragged to me about how they were going to retire way earlier than me. They had found a "guru" to manage their money. The guru apparently was into writing covered calls. When it all went south, one guy sued and IIRC actually got a small recovery through arbitration. The other guy is still w*rking almost 15 years later (at age 70) repositioning cars. Neither of these guys ended up "homeless" but their life-styles took a huge hit, especially until they could get on SS. Even then, they have never really recovered financially.

I recall trying to council them to be very careful. Their guru was saying they could safely spend 8% of their nest egg. I wasn't a member of this Forum back then but shared with them the 4% rule I had learned here. 8% seemed a pipe dream to me - turns out it was a lead-pipe to the head for these guys. YMMV

I am curious how the guru managed to ruin these guys with covered call writing.

In a bull market, this technique limits your gain, and your profit is less than that of stock owners who do nothing. In a bear market, you are better off than do-nothing stock owners. In other words, you are willing to forfeit potential outsize gains in exchange for a better return if the market is stagnant or going down.

Sounds like there's more to the story. Even the 8% WR should not ruin these guys that fast, and should leave them with plenty of time to react and to change.

 

[imoldernu]

While we were never in such a desperate situation, at age 53, we were living in a trailer in our Woodhaven Lakes campground. No pension, no measurable income, and very limited assets. A $7,000 trailer w/ expenses very close to what they are today... Dues including all facilities, water, sewer $1200/yr. Owned lot and trailer. Taxes $200, insurance $250. Permanent neighbors, and among the happiest times of our lives. All early retirees who knew how to have fun and enjoy life without spending. Looking back, don't think we missed out on anything important.
Even accounting for nearly 100% inflation since that time... 1989, would still be much less than 1 million dollars today. (28 years ago)

We still have a camper (now a park model) at Woodhaven, and this morning, I went to the "senior coffee" with people my age or older... still snowbirding from Illinois to Fl, TX, AZ, or some other sunny clime. Happy people, (most older than me...@ 81. )... It's a way of life. Entertainment from the park or their over 55 senior communities in the warmer climes. Absolutely not to feel sorry for them or us. We now live in our Liberty Village house in our CCRC, but would have been just as happy living as snowbirds.

Since age 62, the $400,000 in SS has been a big help. We still have the same real dollars that we started with. We are not alone. No really bad mistakes along the way.. that helped. The 1989 nest egg is still intact, but we just exhausted our IRA a/c in 2017. Firecalc shows 100% to age 92.

I read the article, and there were moments of deja vu, like some of the initial plans of being campground hosts and traveling the country in our 72 VW Westphalia. Never went back to work for money, though we did lots of volunteering.

Wouldn't want to start over again, and know it was the best of times, but am pretty sure that not all of the people who live the wandering lifestyle are as unhappy as the article portrayed.

 

[Fermion]

RV sue and her canine crew seem to live on about $900 a month and post some of the most beautiful locations where she camps.

 

[Yarnstormer]

I met a woman working at a campground - she deliberately sold everything thing she had - said it took a few years - and lived in her tiny camper. She was quite happy. Early to mid 50s. She did not have health ins - said it was because she didn't make enough for a subsidy but I also think she is in the "I don't need no insurance" group. She was very happy with her life and I admit I was a little jealous of her freedom.

 

[Elbata]

Somewhat related to the last 3 comments:

In the 70s, I gave away all my belongings, quit my job (Seattle, Bethlehem Steel) and hitchhiked around the US. Wanted to see the US and decide where to end up.

Without a doubt, the best experience of my life--ended up in SoCal.

Did a Forest Gump thing one time too. Hitchhiked from LA to Montana, then North Dakota and well into Minnesota. Changed my mind about going east. The person stopped the car, let me out, I crossed the freeway and started my way back to SoCal.

 

[brucethebroker]

Interesting about the "horror" stories of working for Amazon Workforce. The physical stress, employer provided pain killers, stretching exercises before working, and no benefits (I am guessing since they are temp workers). What struck me was how the media was not running with this story. Can you imagine if Walmart did this? There would be an expose on 60 minutes or some such for taking advantage of seniors. But for some reason, Amazon is the darling of the media-and Walmart, the whipping boy.

 

[marko]

What struck me was how the media was not running with this story. Can you imagine if Walmart did this? There would be an expose on 60 minutes or some such for taking advantage of seniors. But for some reason, Amazon is the darling of the media-and Walmart, the whipping boy.

I've come to believe that almost everything in the media is agenda driven.

IMO the only place where there is any semblance of unbiased truth is in sports statistics and the daily stock market numbers.

(I won't bother you with our personal story of how the media --CNN in this case-- can twist one's perception of the facts)

 

[Tekward]

There are some stories: Washington Post writer slams Jeff Bezos in op-ed for mistreating workers | Fox Business

 

[Moemg]

Amazon should be ashamed of themselves . They are making tons of money so they should offer their workers something not take advantage of people down on their luck .

 

[marko]

Amazon should be ashamed of themselves . They are making tons of money so they should offer their workers something not take advantage of people down on their luck .

I wonder how many of these campers are actually 'down on their luck'.

My suspicion is that most are RVers who've found a way to make a few extra bucks during the holiday season, then move on to another sunny location.

There's always going to be someone doing this who lives under the proverbial bridge eating dog food and these seem to be the people that writers seek out.

Nobody wants to read about Mr and Mrs toiling for Amazon by day and then sleeping in their $300K RV at night after a nice steak dinner.

 

[Maenad]

I think what annoys me most about these types of articles is not only that some of the subjects of the stories seem to wallow in their learned helplessness, but that the reporters can't/don't/won't see it themselves. No one thinks to sit down with these folks, go over their finances, and help them find senior services. Or maybe some people have tried, but the allure of ostriching was just too much for them.

I just can't imagine hearing someone talk about losing everything and running out of food without trying to help them with their budget and navigating the social safety net. Everyone involved seems to be willing to just throw up their hands and give up.

 

[JoeWras]

I think what annoys me most about these types of articles is not only that some of the subjects of the stories seem to wallow in their learned helplessness, but that the reporters can't/don't/won't see it themselves. No one thinks to sit down with these folks, go over their finances, and help them find senior services. Or maybe some people have tried, but the allure of ostriching was just too much for them.

I just can't imagine hearing someone talk about losing everything and running out of food without trying to help them with their budget and navigating the social safety net. Everyone involved seems to be willing to just throw up their hands and give up.

Right on. There are so many holes.

About 20 years ago, some friends at church agreed to be in an article on retirement planning in the USA Today. Oh my goodness, that article was detailed beyond belief! It is hard to believe USA Today was that good at one time, because it always seemed like candy, but compared to today's "expert articles," it was fantastic.

I can't believe our friends were so open. I mean, they got down to every detail. Not just NW, but every detail on how they are investing (specific funds, sectors, etc.) What they currently make today, what their expenses are, how much they are saving, etc. All that posted with their pictures and home town! More detail than we see here posted anonymously.

We asked them, "How and Why?" The "How" was they were a friend of a friend of the writer. The "Why" was they felt they were doing well and wanted to help show people how to do it. It was not bragging, they were doing well, but these people don't brag.

When I look back at it, the article WAS very useful to me and they did a great service. The writer was very comprehensive and thorough with them. You just don't see that anymore.

 

[marko]

I just can't imagine hearing someone talk about losing everything and running out of food without trying to help them with their budget and navigating the social safety net. Everyone involved seems to be willing to just throw up their hands and give up.

From personal experience, sometimes the hands get thrown up after 1,827 attempts to help right their ship.

 

[Marketwatcher]

I ERed last year, and live full-time in a travel trailer. It's great. We roam around the country hiking, biking, and visiting family and friends. I don't work at all and don't plan to, but this is a great lifestyle. It's a very easy way of controlling your living costs. We have a great solar set up which allows us to camp offgrid for free!