off the grid with solar energy

perinova

perinova

Full time employment: Posting here.
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
531
After looking at a map of sun exposure I came across that site selling kits to put yourself off the grid.

For those interested...
http://store.altenergystore.com/Kits-and-Package-Deals/c447/

Some low wattage kits seem not too expensive.
If you are considering this you need to make a computation including maintenance costs later on. For example I think that batteries may? need to be replaced every 10 years.
 
We live in a suburban community and had a solar electrical system installed in September, 2005. We remain on the grid and sell our surplus electricity to our electric company. We don't have a battery system to store energy so we also buy electricity (at nite or during heavy usage). Our total electric bill last year was $386. This was due to a long string of 110 degree plus days in July and August. However, the anticipated payoff thru savings/earnings for the system is 8 to 10 years. Our neighbors have had electric bill exceeding $800 a month though more typically their bills are for around $200. The cost of the system was just over $29k but rebates and tax credits reduced our outlay to $16,500.
 
Random thought:

If you were to go off the grid, you'd find yourself switching to all flourescent lighting, and using other techniques to decrease your electricity usage. If you do that first, you might find that your electric bill is so low that it wouldn't pay to switch to solar.

Our bill is under $40/month (10 KWH/day) and we're not doing anything dramatic, except not using the furnace (500 watts of fan to distribute the propane-heated air).

Our "sell your surplus to the power company" system here costs $7/month to be in, and you don't get paid if you supply more than you use.
 
Our utility company doesn't charge anything to sell them our electricity. However, we don't get any money for surplus electricity. Basically, our meter runs backwards while generating and forward when we don't. This is settled up at the end of the year so the best we can get is no cost from the utility company. I should also point out that our utility company is investor owned and charges some of the highest rates in CA. We are happy to sell back to them as these same high rates.

We've always been pretty thrifty but this is also an opportunity to really move towards being "green". We also drive a Prius (44.6 mpg since 05/03). It is nice to be green but it is also nice to be comfortable.
 
Al's right about switching to fluroscent bulbs.  Not sure about knocking your bills to nil, however a side benefit was noted during a power outage here.  We have the mini twists all around the house and after a major storm blew threw and knocked out power our bulbs remained lit, so I checked the voltage at the sockets and we had ~87 volts and the only lights in the neighborhood.
 
larry said:
Al's right about switching to fluroscent bulbs. Not sure about knocking your bills to nil, however a side benefit was noted during a power outage here. We have the mini twists all around the house and after a major storm blew threw and knocked out power our bulbs remained lit, so I checked the voltage at the sockets and we had ~87 volts and the only lights in the neighborhood.
Click to expand...

Wow, I wouldn't have guessed that. I would have thought the electronic ballast in the CF bulbs would be fairly sensitive to voltage. Thats good to know. Your neighbors with incandescent bulbs did have light: verrrry faint light. :) On the plus side-- a lamp rated for 115 volts will probably burn for 5 - 10 years if you run it at 87 volts.
 
2006 was our first full year of solar generation. Our year end settle-up with PG&E was -$38. So we generated $38 more in power than we used. I guess I didn't account for the case of mini-twist compact fluorescent bulbs I bought on eBay when I sized the system (3 kW for a family of 5 in northern CA). Actually they changed the on-peak and off-peak rates (in our favor) during the year and I think that's why we ended up leaving money on the table. I was surprised that the system performed at higher efficiency than Real Goods advertised. :)
 
scrinch, that's impressive. Can you elaborate on the numbers?

I'm mainly interested in real life economics. My rough calculation (a few years back) tells me that solar energy is a no-win situation in terms of dollars. Is it not true with your case? Thanks.
 
That's an encouraging article. Storing the energy in hydrogen and using it for his car, too! If that could become practical and affordable...
 
Nords and T-Al talked about this earlier, I followed their advice and switched out all my bulbs with compact florescents. Bill went from ~$85 to ~$65 immediately. We can't afford a solar system at this point. I drive a stick shift Volvo that gets 28 mpg combined, when it falls apart on me and they have plug in hybrids, I'll explore a solar system.
 
TromboneAl said:
That's an encouraging article. Storing the energy in hydrogen and using it for his car, too! If that could become practical and affordable...
Click to expand...

All sorts of great ideas become practical and affordable when oil hits $120/bbl.

If there was some effective way to tax the pollution from conventional sources, we could see the 'true cost' of these energy sources, and many renewable sources might look cheap.

But, it really would be a nightmare to calculate the total impact of coal (mercury, acid rain, particulates, CO2), versus, say, bio-diesel (soil erosion, fertilizer, pesticide, deforestation, habitat destruction). It's the whole paper/plastic thing writ large.

How much energy and pollution does it take to create a solar panel anyway?

Course, politicians won't do it, and people would cry at the taxes. But I would like to see at least some baby steps (as part of an overall plan - not just hodge podge feel good changes.

-ERD50
 
scrinch, that's impressive. Can you elaborate on the numbers?

I'm mainly interested in real life economics. My rough calculation (a few years back) tells me that solar energy is a no-win situation in terms of dollars. Is it not true with your case? Thanks.
Click to expand...


Gotta be quick cause I have to get to w*rk. Net cost after CA Energy Comission rebate and CA/Fed tax credits was $10,678 for a 2970W grid-tied installation. Total power bill for 12 months in 2004/2005 was $1070. Total bill for 2006 was $0. I switched to a time-of-use meter where the summer on-peak rate is $0.29 and all other rates are about $.09 or $.10/kWh. Making assumptions for maintenance, degradation of performance with time, etc, the ROI of the investment is about 5% plus the inflation rate of the cost of power. I made the decision to intall solar before the feds passed the 2005 Energy Act, and the $2000 tax credit (for 2006) was an unexpected boon (system comissioned Jan 06).
 
Laurence said:
Nords and T-Al talked about this earlier, I followed their advice and switched out all my bulbs with compact florescents. Bill went from ~$85 to ~$65 immediately. We can't afford a solar system at this point. I drive a stick shift Volvo that gets 28 mpg combined, when it falls apart on me and they have plug in hybrids, I'll explore a solar system.
Click to expand...

Oh, and that's gas and electric (one company-one bill) and that includes a 240 powered Jacuzzi. I can live with it.
 
I looked at the site and it does not look that great to me... the upfront costs are hugh...

Is anybody here from the South when we have to use a LOT of electricity to air condition our houses:confused: I have a 5 ton AC which uses a good amount of electricity... so, spending $20K to $35K to get a system doesn't seem like a good investment..

Now, if I was out in the back woods and it would cost me $5K or so to run a line to my house.... then the system might make more sense... but then you can't sell any back... you ARE off the grid..
 
I ran the numbers last year. It'd take us roughly 10-12 years to pay back the initial costs, presuming electric rates dont go up at a sharper rate than they have. We simply wont be living here that long. And we live in a nearly perfect place for solar - 320 days of sunshine a year, high summer daytime cooling costs and low winter heating costs.

There are some improvements in the technology that are supposed to be coming along in the next 3-5 years that might double or quadruple the efficiency and therefore some of the costs and size of the arrays.

If I were building a house from scratch, I'd consider it. Retrofitting doesnt look too good right now.

Plus according to my realtor buddies, having a solar array on your roof actually limits buyers. Some people dont "get" it and it raises a little flag that there might be some complexity, something that might break, or some other rube goldberg problem with it. So you're not assured of recouping your capital costs when you sell either.
 
How can electricity be "sold back" to the power company? Wouldn't a back feed thru the meter cause an explosion? What's the special equipment - and who pays for it??

Thanx!
 
You might need a new electric meter, which the electric company will usually install for free. Power from your inverter that isnt consumed by the house simply flows back into the grid and either spins your meter backwards or turns a second meter that shows electricity "sold back".
 
tryan said:
How can electricity be "sold back" to the power company? Wouldn't a back feed thru the meter cause an explosion? What's the special equipment - and who pays for it??
Click to expand...
Cute 'n Fuzzy Bunny said:
You might need a new electric meter, which the electric company will usually install for free. Power from your inverter that isnt consumed by the house simply flows back into the grid and either spins your meter backwards or turns a second meter that shows electricity "sold back".
Click to expand...
The little wheel in the meter just spins backwards and the dials count down.

A digital meter gives the power company tremendous flexibility like remote reading, time-of-day "peak" metering with variable rates, and a bunch of other bells & whistles that consumers don't care about. However you can no longer watch the little wheel spin backwards. It's a bummer.

"Net metering" means that the power company reads your meter every month and does the math. If your reading is higher then you give them money. If it's lower then you don't. California's PG&E makes it tremendously more complicated than that, and HECO is trying to imitate their big brothers, but we're happy with the system and looking to expand.
 
scrinch said:
Gotta be quick cause I have to get to w*rk. Net cost after CA Energy Comission rebate and CA/Fed tax credits was $10,678 for a 2970W grid-tied installation. Total power bill for 12 months in 2004/2005 was $1070. Total bill for 2006 was $0. I switched to a time-of-use meter where the summer on-peak rate is $0.29 and all other rates are about $.09 or $.10/kWh. Making assumptions for maintenance, degradation of performance with time, etc, the ROI of the investment is about 5% plus the inflation rate of the cost of power. I made the decision to intall solar before the feds passed the 2005 Energy Act, and the $2000 tax credit (for 2006) was an unexpected boon (system comissioned Jan 06).
Click to expand...

Thanks. I will try to recalculate. May be things have changed for the better since a few years ago. I have no plan to do anything for my current house. May be the next one. But most likely just to satisfy my curiosity.

One last question: Would you have done it if there were no tax break/credit?
 
Sam said:
One last question: Would you have done it if there were no tax break/credit?
Click to expand...
Heck yeah. The equipment life outlasts the capex payback time, and that assumes that the price per KWHr stays constant for the next couple decades.

Think of it as an investment-- our PV array is paying at least a 5% dividend.

The tax credits just bring the profits faster, even more quickly than energy inflation...
 
One last question: Would you have done it if there were no tax break/credit?
Click to expand...

Maybe. Rebates and tax breaks cut the capital cost by almost 50%. The decision without those breaks would have been more from a technogeek and environmental perspective, without my LBYM side adding "Go ahead, it makes solid economic sense too!" In that case a PenFed CD and a monthly PG&E bill would have made more strict economic sense, probably. :)
 
How much did you spend to get a 10 year payback:confused: This is both the cost of the system and your utility bills:confused:

I ask because I just don't see it.... OR I am looking at a bigger system than I need..

My total cost for electricity last year was $1,350. They suggest a system that costs as 'low' as $20,000 up to $35,000. Well, 5% of $20,000 is $1,000... so unless my cost of electricity goes below $350 I break even... NO payback.. and if I get to pay nothing... then taking $350 off the $20K is going to take a LONG time to pay back...
 
My total cost for electricity last year was $1,350. They suggest a system that costs as 'low' as $20,000 up to $35,000. Well, 5% of $20,000 is $1,000... so unless my cost of electricity goes below $350 I break even... NO payback.. and if I get to pay nothing... then taking $350 off the $20K is going to take a LONG time to pay back...
Click to expand...

Payback is usually calculated with no return on investment (your 5%). So if your electricity bill went to zero, you'd get a 15 year payback on $20,000. So yeah, without a rebate or tax credits, your ROI would be less than 5%, assuming a low inflation rate for power costs. But if rebates and tax credits cut your upfront costs in half, then you'd have a nice looking project.
 
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