OH those Treasury notes/bonds. Who's holding out?

scottl73

Dryer sheet wannabe
Joined
Oct 4, 2023
Messages
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With high yield savings accounts earning right at 5% currently,would it make sense to hold out on buying bonds for now? I will be waiting this out a bit and only when we notice the yield rates come to a crazy high or start to decline, I will lock in long term treasury notes/bonds and let it ride. I'm prepared to lock in minimum 500K and not have to watch the stock market anymore. What are ya'll planning on doing or already did?
 
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My Treasuries and CDs are laddered so as one matures I replace it with a new one. I'm out to the end of 2026 at the moment but will extend a little further as things mature.


I'm not changing our asset allocation so we're still 60% equity.
 
My Treasuries and CDs are laddered so as one matures I replace it with a new one. I'm out to the end of 2026 at the moment but will extend a little further as things mature.


I'm not changing our asset allocation so we're still 60% equity.

So what if 6 months from now the return rates are 6-1/2%? You would miss out on that high percentage on everything you have locked in now. If you locked in around 5%, then to me it's better to keep it in a high yield savings until you are ready to commit long term??
 
So what if 6 months from now the return rates are 6-1/2%? You would miss out on that high percentage on everything you have locked in now. If you locked in around 5%, then to me it's better to keep it in a high yield savings until you are ready to commit long term??

I would keep it in a MM like SWVXX or SNAXX, when the yield drops on those that would signal time to lock up some cash for 3 - 5 years. JMHO, I could be wrong.

They have been pretty flat for about 2 months now. SNAX is actually up 0.01 today.
 
So what if 6 months from now the return rates are 6-1/2%? You would miss out on that high percentage on everything you have locked in now. If you locked in around 5%, then to me it's better to keep it in a high yield savings until you are ready to commit long term??

It all depends on your investment hypothesis with respect to interest rates. Mine is that they may drift up a little and plateau for a while and would only decline if we have an economic slowdown.

My maturity distribution was skewed to 2024-2025. I sold a lot of 2024-2025 maturities and bought 2026-2028 maturities with the proceeds to balance out my ladder. So I have pretty similar amounts maturing in 2024-2028.

While I don't see a 150 bps increase at all if it did happen I could use 2024 maturities to buy that 6-1/2% paper.
 
So what if 6 months from now the return rates are 6-1/2%? You would miss out on that high percentage on everything you have locked in now. If you locked in around 5%, then to me it's better to keep it in a high yield savings until you are ready to commit long term??

What are you reasons for thinking interest rates on Treasuries will go to 6 1/2%?

What would you do if they were flat or fell in 6 months?
 
At this point in the cycle, waiting for higher rates is not investing in my view. It is speculating.

And I do no speculating with my bond portfolio.

The yield on the 10y T-bond is 4.577. It is off sharply just in the last 2 days.

Yes I have extended maturities.

Do some math. If you are still waiting, what sign will inform you?
 
At this point in the cycle, waiting for higher rates is not investing in my view. It is speculating.

And I do no speculating with my bond portfolio.

The yield on the 10y T-bond is 4.577. It is off sharply just in the last 2 days.

Yes I have extended maturities.

Do some math. If you are still waiting, what sign will inform you?

In reference to the 10 year dropping quickly this is perfectly normal and does not portend lower future rates.

https://wolfstreet.com/2023/11/02/a...e-hype-hoopla-it-hasnt-done-anything-special/

In terms of closing yields (per Treasury Department data), the 10-year yield dropped from the high of 4.98% on October 19 to 4.68% now, a drop of 30 basis points in 10 trading days. So that’s a pretty big drop.

But when was the last time a 30-basis-point drop in 10 trading days occurred? In March 2023 (-58 basis points); in January 2023 (-45 basis points); in December 2022 (-34 basis points); in November 2022 (-46 basis points); in August 2022 (-36 basis points); in July 2022 (-43 basis points), etc. etc.

You get the idea: The 10-year yield is volatile, as Powell pointed out, and this stuff happens a lot, and to a larger extent.

And all these drops were followed by big surges in the yield, and amid all the ups and downs, the yield kept wobbling higher.



One sign I'm waiting for is what happens to inflation over the next 3 months. It has slowly ticked up above expectations the last couple of months and there are some base and health care effects starting to happen this month.


The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects the federal deficit to total $1.4 trillion in 2023 and average $2.0 trillion per year from 2024 to 2033.


And what does the 1.7 trillion deficit yet to be funded do to rates this year and 2 trillion per year for who knows how long. Recent deficits are happening while the economy has been running hot.
When we have a recession the deficit typically runs higher as the government tries to boost the economy.

And speaking of math, how long can we continue funding 2,000,000,000,000 dollar deficits?

What will that do to long term rates? Who is going to be buying longer term Treasuries at current rates with these enormous, unbelievable deficits when we're in a recession and the rating agencies keep cutting Treasury ratings due to the huge deficits? The Fed, QE again? We can't do that - that helped cause inflation in the first place and would further fuel it.

Does anybody believe the government will reduce spending:confused:

I believe the chance rates go higher, possibly much higher are more likely than rates going much lower from here.

And higher rates will ultimately force the government to reduce spending and most likely raise income and corporate tax rates.

That will finally reduce long term rates.
 
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At this point in the cycle, waiting for higher rates is not investing in my view. It is speculating.

And I do no speculating with my bond portfolio.

The yield on the 10y T-bond is 4.577. It is off sharply just in the last 2 days.

Yes I have extended maturities.

Do some math. If you are still waiting, what sign will inform you?

+1
 
In reference to the 10 year dropping quickly this is perfectly normal and does not portend lower future rates.

https://wolfstreet.com/2023/11/02/a...e-hype-hoopla-it-hasnt-done-anything-special/

Not a fan of Wolfstreet. They have never seemed to be very objective.

And there is no proof offered for the views presented, it is simply assertions.

Surely at some point falling rates are due to falling rates and not the counterintuitive indicator of higher rates to come.

But all of that aside, I am still not sure why anyone would at this point in the cycle be speculating on a rate rise.

Perhaps we could all learn something by you explaining to us why you wish to do so and how it advances your objectives.
 
But all of that aside, I am still not sure why anyone would at this point in the cycle be speculating on a rate rise.

$2,000,000,000,000 deficits for the foreseeable future will cause long term rates to rise and help keep inflation higher than normal. That is a tremendous amount of deficit spending. Nothing even remotely like this in the past with a now $33,000,000,000,000 bill due.

I'm curious why you believe we're in the top of the cycle. The bond bull market cycle lasted 40 years. Did people expect that when they were 3 years into the bond bull market it would end?

As far as when I will lock in additional longer duration, I do not know. I have 49% of my portfolio in ~6 year duration with 5.10% yield. Not great but good enough for now. So I already have some funds "invested".

The rest is in MMF, short term CDs and treasuries earning ~5.35%. I'm fine waiting and if I miss the opportunity to lock in higher rates and duration because I was wrong I accept the consequences of that decision.

I enjoy our discussions and still have a lot to learn. Heck, I just bought some preferred stocks with average yield over 7% and potential for some capital gains if rates drop. I'm building a preferred stock portfolio which I will consider my equity allocation as I currently have none.
 
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I've never bought bonds, and would never buy long-term anything in bonds given the post above.

IIRC, there's one financial guru out there who says individual investors would never go beyond 5-7 years, i.e., the lower side of "intermediate" bond duration.

I'd sooner put 2/3 of my portfolio into NTSX and keep the remainder in cash:

WisdomTree 90/60 US Efficient Core Fund [NTSX]

"The job NTSX is intended to do--at least as I understood it from WisdomTree's initial presentation--is to allow you to get the same results as a boring 60/40 portfolio, but using only ⅔ of your portfolio space to do it.

That leaves you free to fill up the other ⅓ with an 'alpha strategy' or a liquid alt as diversifier or what have you, without worrying that lower return in that allocation will drag down portfolio return because you've already got the full return in the other ⅔."
 
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$2,000,000,000,000 deficits for the foreseeable future will cause long term rates to rise and help keep inflation higher than normal. That is a tremendous amount of deficit spending. Nothing even remotely like this in the past with a now $33,000,000,000,000 bill due.

I'm curious why you believe we're in the top of the cycle. The bond bull market cycle lasted 40 years. Did people expect that when they were 3 years into the bond bull market it would end?

As far as when I will lock in additional longer duration, I do not know. I have 49% of my portfolio in ~6 year duration with 5.10% yield. Not great but good enough for now. So I already have some funds "invested".

The rest is in MMF, short term CDs and treasuries earning ~5.35%. I'm fine waiting and if I miss the opportunity to lock in higher rates and duration because I was wrong I accept the consequences of that decision.

I enjoy our discussions and still have a lot to learn. Heck, I just bought some preferred stocks with average yield over 7% and potential for some capital gains if rates drop. I'm building a preferred stock portfolio which I will consider my equity allocation as I currently have none.

I am certainly not sure we are at a top. My point is the market may be seeing a top. We only know in retrospect.

I hear you on deficit spending. Of course, Japan's much larger bond issuance (250%+ of GDP) has left its 10 year bond yield rocketing all the way up to .91%. So you may not be onto something there.

And the 40 year bond bull market began with mortgage rates at 16% and after many years of high inflation. It took as long time for investors to agree that inflation was tamed. And during that bull market, there were many many times when investors had a chance to lock in favorable rates before they fell further.

One thing I note is your portfolio is 100% fixed income. We are very different in that regard, as I am about 60% equities. If I had your portfolio I would certainly be hoping for higher rates. But I doubt I would be speculating with half of my money.

I have explained my views in the other bond threads. My purpose here was to alert folks that are persuadable. You may not have been in my target audience ;). But it is all good.
 
Tactically, I'm irritated with myself. I plan to use pb4uski's excellent suggesion about iBonds ladders to build a proper ladder. Life/Work intruded and I haven't done it yet. That I gave up 30bps makes me grumpy. If I give up another 30bps I will be extra grumpy.

That said, strategically I think the Fed may lose some control of rates due to Federal deficits. Absent them just buying everything in sight, the world's interest in $2T of new debt annually from an increasing erratic borrower may wane.

High interest rates may be necessary to attract lenders.
 
Tactically, I'm irritated with myself. I plan to use pb4uski's excellent suggesion about iBonds ladders to build a proper ladder. Life/Work intruded and I haven't done it yet. That I gave up 30bps makes me grumpy. If I give up another 30bps I will be extra grumpy.

That said, strategically I think the Fed may lose some control of rates due to Federal deficits. Absent them just buying everything in sight, the world's interest in $2T of new debt annually from an increasing erratic borrower may wane.

High interest rates may be necessary to attract lenders.

That’s why I think Note and Bond rates haven’t peaked yet.
 
Tactically, I'm irritated with myself. I plan to use pb4uski's excellent suggesion about iBonds ladders to build a proper ladder. Life/Work intruded and I haven't done it yet. That I gave up 30bps makes me grumpy. If I give up another 30bps I will be extra grumpy.

I gave up a lot of those basis points in the 1980’s when I bought a double digit yielding T-Bill and then waited for rates to go even higher. I did not buy another one. :( It happens. One reason I bought a few TIPS earlier this year was due to the fixed rate bumping up to levels not seen in many years. I won’t get caught being greedy again. If the fixed rate goes up I may buy a few mores. If not, I have what have (inflation + 1.8 to 2.4%). If the fixed rate goes down, I’ll buy myself a nice glass of champagne to celebrate the next time I go out for a fancy dinner. But, I won’t be caught waiting for the perfect, when I have the very good in hand.
 
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Today I got $25,000 from my IRA dumped into my taxable account via the second year of our 72t. I have that IRA in 5% 2 year treasuries and the coupon payments this year were $27,000.

Something about that just feels so good.
 
Is everyone sure that long term rates will be determined by free market forces? What if substantially higher long rates cause the US to default on their debt payments? Is there a wizard behind the curtain that calls the top?
 
Is everyone sure that long term rates will be determined by free market forces? What if substantially higher long rates cause the US to default on their debt payments? Is there a wizard behind the curtain that calls the top?

US defaulting on debt payments essentially wipes out any type of retirement planning so it is not really an issue I worry about.
 
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