OK, I'm dumb. With a poll.

Count SS NPV as part of portfolio or not?

  • Yes, count SS NPV as part of portfolio for AA purposes.

    Votes: 14 7.8%
  • No, don't count SS NPV as part of portfolio for AA purposes.

    Votes: 121 67.2%
  • I like bacon.

    Votes: 45 25.0%

  • Total voters
    180
....but bogle was wrong

I certainly don't use SS NPV in any calcs, nor consider it a bond

it is a future income stream, subject to constraints
In my case, I could start it tomorrow (and have moneys 6 months in arrears paid, as well) but have still been deferring. My pension is being paid currently, and was never considered as a bond... just as a future income back before retirement.
If you can't reallocate between stocks and it, you cannot include in allocation.... so no to SS, true pensions**. One could sell some items (real estate, patent/royalty payments, beanie babies, "collectible" cards, future crop yields, etc) but would need to consider the value after fees, taxes, and the variability of the items value (which could be huge)... in many cases the results would be GIGO for planning purposes.


(**cash balance plans aren't "true" pensions; one could purchase a SPIA upon retirement but that's not an obligation carried by the company but rather one defined by the company that you purchased the SPIA from)

{...voted No, but also like bacon}
 
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Personally, I love bacon!
I think you’re overthinking it. Pick one method and stick with it so you have consistency.
 
I don't count SS (or SS NPV) as part of AA determination, but I certainly consider it in my overall analysis - basically as an annuity payment starting at xx age.
 
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Poll option C. You’re smart, but overthinking this. Go with the allocation that lets you sleep soundly.

+1

SS NPV is more "abstract" to me, and abstract things tend to get lost during market downturns and folks panicking with an AA they thought they were comfortable with. I ignore my SS (and pension) NPV, and just look at them as income streams separate from my AA. My AA is set to let me sleep at night regardless of what the market is doing.
 
I do not. I suppose it makes some sense to help you set up your portfolio AA. Naturally, YMMV.
 
Truthfully, if I was starting to look at this now at age 58, I would probably do a side fund calculation for my pension and SS, and wouldn't be including them in my net worth (for withdrawal rate purposes) nor my AA. But I started my planning in my late 30s and I either didn't figure out the side fund option, or decided it was too far away to do it.

I could change it now, but that would fall under the "overthinking" category, so I'll live with it. When I start collecting each, I'll drop it out of my NW and AA calcs. Probably.
 
OP discounted SS by 40%. I discounted it by 25%. So we aren't ignoring this.

Yup, 25% discount for me with 'run model assuming it all melts down and see if you could still eat gourmet cat food' as bottom floor. I figure if the US government doesn't pay the military pension, we're in a whole other territory of hurt and AA isn't the important thing on our minds....
 
More serious post regarding OP intent (as I understand it).

I believe what you are alluding to is "should I include my pension income in my AA?" There are different schools of thought which have been discussed here. I remember Nords onetime discussing that he had read a book where someone had posited that your pension should be treated like a bond and if so, then your portfolio should be adjusted accordingly to meet your AA. Therefore, your portfolio would tilt much more towards stocks.

My thought on this is 'it depends.' I've been doing a lot of reading over at Bogleheads on the VPW (thanks, RunningBum! for the tip), and one of the tenets in using that is at the age of 80, one would purchase an inflation indexed SPIA (annuity) to establish a floor of income past the age of 100 that would cover basic needs. If one already has a COLA pension and/or their lifestyle cost needs are met with the pension, then purchase of the SPIA may not be necessary. If your lifestyle costs are not met by that pension then purchase of that annuity at the age of 80 to cover basic needs will probably be required to ensure you don't last past your money. So a quick oversimplification would be you live on your portfolio until age 80, then 'buy' a pension that covers your costs and anything coming from the rest of the portfolio is gravy.

In that VPW model, your pensions are not counted as part of your AA - they are managed separately. Your portfolio AA is just that - the AA on the portfolio. The model gives you a final amount you can spend (within bands based on a 50% drop in the stock portion of your portfolio) of which the pension income is part of that. You can still decide your AA.

So to go back around now, to me the most important piece of information one needs in order to figure out what to do with one's AA, pensions, etc, is to figure out what your lifestyle costs will be. That becomes a target that you work your plan to meet. Some of us here live on very little and some not so little. Your plan then needs to take into account the amount of risk you can take with regard to funding your lifestyle. If you are on a tight margin, then *not* including the pension (SS) in your AA calculation would drive you to have a less stock tilted portfolio. If your lifestyles costs are covered by the pension, then your AA could be tilted much higher in stocks and perhaps be 100% (which is what Nords does, I believe - he's really nuts on this ;-) and loves to play arbitrage games).
 
+1

SS NPV is more "abstract" to me, and abstract things tend to get lost during market downturns and folks panicking with an AA they thought they were comfortable with. I ignore my SS (and pension) NPV, and just look at them as income streams separate from my AA. My AA is set to let me sleep at night regardless of what the market is doing.
+1 We mostly live on our SS and pensions while still living a frugal life for the majority of the days and expenses. Then dip into retirement funds for any travel, home repairs, gifts to our grown children, and donations. If SS and pensions were to disappear we would still be covered until the bucket is kicked.



Cheers!
 
I would not count the present value of SS, as it's not in your account right now. Your AA needs to mitigate your SORR from your current age, to the age at which you begin SS payments. Counting the NPV of SS would result in an AA that is too heavily stock-weighted, and you'd have a significant SORR from your current age of 51 to age 70 (19 years), when you begin SS distributions. If you're using FIRECALC, input SS benefits on the SS input section. If you have any failure lines (most likely with a 4% or greater WR), they usually cross the $0 line 15-20 years after you start tapping the investments. However, since your WR is so low, does it really matter?

My plan has been to guard against Sequence of Returns Risk before pension and SS starts. SORR may be a risk that many fail to appreciate until it hits. A rising equity glidepath mitigates some of the downside while trading away upside potential for peace of mind.

IMHO SS and pension is an income stream used to offset portfolio with drawls, not a bankable asset.

Bacon lover.
 
For me "No" was the best answer. I treat it as only as a guaranteed, COLA'd income stream. I also have a TIPs/Ibonds ladder to supplement that to add a fixed, COLA'd dollar amount income stream to that. Then I have an AA for stocks/bonds. Of course SS and my TIPs/Ibond ladder have an affect on my choice of stocks/bonds AA is, but since SS + TIPs/Ibonds is targeting a dollar amount, not a percentage, I treat them completely separate when calculating my AA.

In terms of an annual withdrawal, I will calculate the NPV of my SS stream and the NPV of my TIPs/Ibond ladder during the period between retirement and the time when I actually start taking SS and withdrawing from the TIPs/Ibond ladder and that will be part of the calculation of my annual withdrawal. This is described over on bogleheads in the "Time Value of Money" threads.
 
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I chose "I like bacon" because 1) I like bacon, and 2) I had to look up what NPV was, so I hadn't thought of this before either.

But...I did leave SS out of my Fidelity retirement planner until about a year or two ago, just to make sure that we would be OK without it, even though at worst we'd probably get 75% of our expected benefits, so I almost said don't count it. That's a different reason to leave it out, but it's true that I don't count it towards my AA, and I don't think I will.
 
Personally I would simply reduce my expenses by the annual SS amount.
We have 5 pensions and that is what we do. And our SWR is under 2% as a result. But yes the pension amounts count towards fixed assets. So our portfolios have an equity tilt of 65%.
 
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I don't count mine, I'm trying to make sure I'm safe without it since politicians have spent my entire life saying how they are going to get rid of it. Now that it is only ~23 years away, I feel less like that is going to happen, but I still feel safer not including it in my models yet. I'd rather be safe without it and have a luxurious retirement if it does end up being there.
 
I'm FIREd 4 years, 51M, with about a 1% net WR.
Really I'm just doing whatever the financial equivalent is of figuring out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I think.

I do sleep soundly, and when I don't it's because of my mattress or caffeine, not because of my finances.

I just like to try to optimize when I can.

With a net WR of 1%, it doesn't really matter, and I don't have any failures in FIREcalc with my data, and haven't had any for six years now.
As you and others have mentioned, this is the most relevant part of the thread. You can go with any of your poll's options and still avoid a portfolio failure.

You'll sleep well anyway, and now you're logically consistent.

My AA for the past several years has been to take my actual expenses, multiply that by 25 to get a portfolio number, then set my AA to that which provided a maximum safe WR% historically according to FIREcalc. Whatever was leftover was invested in stocks, since I expected my kids to inherit that part.


But just the other day I had a duh moment.

I calculate an NPV for my SS benefits as follows: I take my age 70 benefit amount from the SS website and inflate that on a monthly basis by CPI (so I'm doing everything in future nominal dollars). I then assume I'll collect 60% of that amount (to account for possible future benefit reductions) from age 70 to age 85. I then do an NPV calculation on the sum of those future reduced benefit amounts, using CPI again as the discount rate.

Anyway, I get NPV for my SS benefits. This SS NPV is about six times the amount I currently have in bonds - so say $640K or so - and I'm currently ignoring it for AA purposes.

A. I am dumb and should have been counting my SS NPV as part of my asset allocation and therefore sell the $100K bonds I have and use the $640K SS NPV as more than covering the bond portion of my portfolio.
More serious post regarding OP intent (as I understand it).

I believe what you are alluding to is "should I include my pension income in my AA?" There are different schools of thought which have been discussed here. I remember Nords onetime discussing that he had read a book where someone had posited that your pension should be treated like a bond and if so, then your portfolio should be adjusted accordingly to meet your AA. Therefore, your portfolio would tilt much more towards stocks.
Moshe Milevsky in "Are You A Stock Or A Bond?"

2Cor, you're not dumb before and you're not making any mistakes now. As Deserat pointed out, instead of a NPV calculation I take a simpler (possibly less precise) approach.

I just check the yield on I bonds or the Vanguard TIPS fund and assume that's the dollar amount of those bonds I'd have to hold for the equivalent monthly income from Social Security. (They're inflation-adjusted so they'll stay in constant dollars.) Of course SS is for my entire remaining life and I bonds or TIPS are a max of 30 years, but we're already torturing an imperfect analogy.

That dollar amount of bond principal tells me where the rest of my portfolio asset allocation can be invested. There's usually no reason to hold other bonds, and I tend to default to equity index funds for the rest. (Currently Vanguard's total stock market index ETF VTI with some Berkshire Hathaway "B" shares.) I'd also invest up to 10% of an asset allocation in "whatever you want to experiment with", whether that's individual stocks, precious metals, cryptocurrencies, or other alternatives. In my case, angel investments.

At Hale Nords, my military pension (and eventually Social Security) means that the rest of our portfolio can be invested in equities. We go for ">90% equities", and typically it's >95%. PersonalCapital says we're currently 99%, because I'm spending a lot more time with local surf wax than with international travel. When we start buying COVID-19 vaccines and plane tickets then we'll sell some equity shares to raise cash as needed.

If your lifestyles costs are covered by the pension, then your AA could be tilted much higher in stocks and perhaps be 100% (which is what Nords does, I believe - he's really nuts on this ;-) and loves to play arbitrage games).
If by "nuts" you mean "passionately enthusiastic", then I agree!

If you mean "sadly deluded in his persistently aggressive yet logically challenged math" then I'd claim that I finally have 16 years of arbitrage data to distinguish luck from history that it makes sense to borrow at <6% to earn at least 7%. (We're currently borrowing at 3.5%, and our 16-year after-tax compounded annual return is 8%/year. The arbitrage has a lower long-term risk when you can guarantee the mortgage's principal & interest payments with an inflation-fighting annuity like a military pension or Social Security. In my case I'm borrowing on my future pension payments by putting up my personal residence as collateral.
https://www.early-retirement.org/fo...rtgage-without-losing-your-ass-ets-15237.html

As for the perpetual debate on Social Security: I think it makes sense to go with the SSA forecast of roughly 75% after 2030. That's actuarially pessimistic, and about a week before it happens then Congress will finally vote the tax solutions to get it back to 100%.

That's the most quantitative analysis I can find, because I don't think that we can consider "political risk of Congress" to be subject to quantitative analysis.
 
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I calculate an NPV for my SS benefits as follows: I take my age 70 benefit amount from the SS website and inflate that on a monthly basis by CPI (so I'm doing everything in future nominal dollars). I then assume I'll collect 60% of that amount (to account for possible future benefit reductions) from age 70 to age 85. I then do an NPV calculation on the sum of those future reduced benefit amounts, using CPI again as the discount rate.

Anyway, I get NPV for my SS benefits. This SS NPV is about six times the amount I currently have in bonds - so say $640K or so - and I'm currently ignoring it for AA purposes.

So, poll options:

A. I am dumb and should have been counting my SS NPV as part of my asset allocation and therefore sell the $100K bonds I have and use the $640K SS NPV as more than covering the bond portion of my portfolio.

B. I am smart and should totally ignore the SS NPV and keep my non-SS portfolio the way it is and keep my $100K in bonds.
When you reduce your future SS by 40% (bolded above) you're significantly cutting back on the effect this has with your AA. It is not so extreme a course. Whichever path you take now (A or B) you're gonna be ok.
 
For others, I think "NPV" stands for Net Present Value.
( I had to look it up) Carry on.


Many times I have had the idea that it would be good to have a acronym page on the site that is easy to find. People new to the site are probably lost with some of the shortcuts used here - I'm still lost on occasion. But TJTWIG. Yup. :dance:
 

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