One bull's case

Remembering 2009, folks were sure a second shock would hit and another leg down was coming. I am not saying a new low couldn’t happen today, but sometimes when history doesn’t repeat, it at least rhymes.

Second wave in 2009?

The lows of 2009 were only reached after busting through the lows of 2008.

The question was whether the Oct 08 lows were "the bottom".

But yes, we always wonder if the current low is "the bottom" regardless of the number of legs down.

But right now we are at 1 leg down. Usually there is more than one but there is sound logic to suggest we may have put in the bottom. There is also sound logic that says we have not.
 
Putting the charts aside, it's pretty obvious that the Fed has been "juicing" the markets. Everyone knows this and this is where we are today.

When the second quarter earnings (or lack thereof) are posted this summer, the Fed better have another round or two to put into their "big gun" or that chart will look much, much different. ;)
 
The hurdle we must pass for market lows to return is (almost) everyone believing it won't (can't) happen. That's when the market will be prime for one. Looks like the media is starting to turn that way.
 
Putting the charts aside, it's pretty obvious that the Fed has been "juicing" the markets. Everyone knows this and this is where we are today.

When the second quarter earnings (or lack thereof) are posted this summer, the Fed better have another round or two to put into their "big gun" or that chart will look much, much different. ;)


I guess we might want to call the next Fed action a "known unknown". I would agree that they do wield a "big gun".... I guess it's safe to say the "biggest gun".
 
Second wave in 2009?

The lows of 2009 were only reached after busting through the lows of 2008.

The question was whether the Oct 08 lows were "the bottom".

But yes, we always wonder if the current low is "the bottom" regardless of the number of legs down.

But right now we are at 1 leg down. Usually there is more than one but there is sound logic to suggest we may have put in the bottom. There is also sound logic that says we have not.

I am not sure what you are saying.
 
Putting the charts aside, it's pretty obvious that the Fed has been "juicing" the markets. Everyone knows this and this is where we are today.

When the second quarter earnings (or lack thereof) are posted this summer, the Fed better have another round or two to put into their "big gun" or that chart will look much, much different. ;)

The 2nd quarter comes up time and time again on this board as the line in the sand. Shhh. Don’t tell anyone.

Contrarian in me says ....
 
Putting the charts aside, it's pretty obvious that the Fed has been "juicing" the markets. Everyone knows this and this is where we are today.

Yes, that is in essence Fed policy given the shock to the economy, and rightly so.

When the second quarter earnings (or lack thereof) are posted this summer, the Fed better have another round or two to put into their "big gun" or that chart will look much, much different. ;)

You could be right but I doubt it. The market is rationally expecting terrible earnings in Q2. With 15-20% unemployment, no other expectation is reasonable. The markets are looking to 2021 and even 2022 in my opinion.

At this point what would cause major further selling is bad Covid news. Bad economic news is baked into the cake, for now.
 
Yes, that is in essence Fed policy given the shock to the economy, and rightly so.



You could be right but I doubt it. The market is rationally expecting terrible earnings in Q2. With 15-20% unemployment, no other expectation is reasonable. The markets are looking to 2021 and even 2022 in my opinion.

At this point what would cause major further selling is bad Covid news. Bad economic news is baked into the cake, for now.

The assumption is also that everything gets much rosier economically for quarter 3 and 4. If it does not turn out to be so, the drop could happen in the July/Aug time frame.
 
To get a sense of where the market is right now, you need to remove these stocks from the indices to see how much damage has been really been done: Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Apple, and Amazon. The bottom 400 stocks in the S&P 500 are now meaningless.
 
To get a sense of where the market is right now, you need to remove these stocks from the indices to see how much damage has been really been done: Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Apple, and Amazon. The bottom 400 stocks in the S&P 500 are now meaningless.
I'm not sure what you would conclude from this. Maybe that S&P 500 is not a good sector to concentrate in? Agreed. We own the world, VT/VTWAX, and as a result the S&P in total is 35-40% of our portfolio IIRC.

Also, like most things in the market this is deja vue all over again. We had the "Nifty 50" concentration, we had the tech bubble, and I'm sure there have been many others. To the extent this time is different, the companies you list are demonstrated market successes with growth potential and real profits. Whether history will judge them to have been overpriced at this point remains to be seen.

Some nice things about passive investing are (1) it is a demonstrated winning strategy, and (2) there's no reason to get spun up about periodic (and usually temporary) market infatuations.

You have shorted the companies on your villains list or have bought a bunch of puts, right?
 
To get a sense of where the market is right now, you need to remove these stocks from the indices to see how much damage has been really been done: Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Apple, and Amazon. The bottom 400 stocks in the S&P 500 are now meaningless.
I use RSP, an equal weight ETF of SP500, to get a sense of what you mention. It's down 16% ytd versus down 9% for SPY. Not even a bear market.
 
Why fight it.....

I was in the “there’s no way $18k was the bottom” club, but seeing all the pessimism now and everyone saying long recession yada yada yada, I think the bottom happened 23 March and will NOT be retested. It could be a bumpy ride back to the top, but why fight it. And be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful. Just now everyone is fearful, unemployment numbers are out, markets went up, earnings are out, markets went up. Everyone was still super pessimistic for the 12-36 months following the bottom in 2009, and the markets kept going up. Worst unemployment numbers came out after the bottom in March 2009.

Don’t fight the fed. Bottom happened already.
 
In the OP Siegel discusses his following of Scott Gottlieb, MD. From today's twitter post:

Scott Gottlieb, MD @ScottGottliebMD
Morgan Stanley's updated COVID model today puts the U.S. national Ro equal to around 1.11 and the epidemic doubling time at about 43 days; reflecting a slowing epidemic, but one where spread is still expanding.

This does not sound encouraging for opening up an economy in general. Of course, there are big regional differences. If the US market continues to rise it is ignoring fundamental data.
 
I think the Fed is juicing the market for a couple of reasons:
1) To give the big investors, banks and institutions time to unwind bad positions cleanly and sell their [re-purchased] stock back to the market before the Q2 negative earnings reports start to bury them.
2) To convince all the regular people who are now hoarding their money that the water is safe; and to put it into the market and bail the big guys out.
The musical chairs will stop when the Fed decides to pull their support. The only question left to answer is, 'how bad will it be?' Nobody knows what the business losses and unemployment rate will be when this is all over.

As evidence, savers are being vilified in the media and the Fed is squeezing savings accounts to get people to invest their money [in the market] to address the currently anemic money velocity with new trillions sloshing around. Take your pick

Here is the relevant chart from the Fed:
M2V_2-28-19-1.460.png


and another that speaks to the [negative] correlation between unemployment and economic growth. This one is equally, if not more, scary:
https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fmikepatton%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F08%2FUnemployment-and-GDP.jpg


I think it's time for great caution in the market since there is certain to be major disruptions throughout the economy when this is over.
 
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For me this is a scratch-my-head time. This interview with Jeremy Siegel is an interesting bull case study: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/08/jer...in-stocks-definitely-going-to-be-the-low.html

Bulls are assuming that once the virus goes away, the dow will roar back to 29,568 again. There are two problems: (1) What happens if the virus doesn't go away. (2) What happens if there are more than short term damage to the economy?

I am retired but my young wife owns a business. She is only planning to re-hire 30% of her employees when the shelter in place is lifted. This is because once you are laid off or even re-hired, people simply will not be spending as much. This loss of confidence will affect her business and our economy.

I like to list all 11 sectors of our economy in the stock market....according to US News. I included my short term opinion on each sector in ( ).

Materials (raw) i.e. mining, steel (likely down due to recession)
Industrial i.e. Boeing, Caterpiller (likely down due to recession)
Financial i.e. banks. investment (likely down due to recession)
Energy i.e oil (likely down due to recession)
Consumers i.e. automotive, clothes, entertainment (likely down due to recession)
Information i.e high tech (likely no change)
Communications i.e. cell phone (likely no change)
Real Estate (likely down due to recession)
Health Care (likely up)
Consumers staples i.e. food (likely no change)
Utilities i.e water gas electric (likely no change)

I do agree that the recovery will be more likely U shaped than V shaped based on all 11 sectors that represents the dow above. Historically, an average recession or a bear market takes between 10 and 18 months. The 3rd quarter (July to Sep 2020) should determine the length of the recession. If we assume 14 months, this means the bottom is about 7 months or recovery should begin in October or November. This is just before the election which will be ironic. The fly in the ointment is the virus. During the 3rd quarter, we should see some clarity on the virus.
 
Here's my prediction (Warning: I'm almost always wrong in my predictions).

  • About 4 to 6 weeks after economies reopen, we'll see a resurgence of COVID infections, and the R0 number will increase beyond 1.1.
  • By then, the second quarter earnings results, and real unemployment results will be out. They'll be far worse than the perplexingly mild drops we're currently seeing reported.
  • Many states will resist re-closing, and many people will ignore social distancing orders.
  • The markets will tank, and we'll see a 50-60% drop from current levels.
  • Until there's an effective vaccine, both the number of COVID cases, and market returns will follow a repeating W-pattern.
  • Repeat.

  • Finally, either we build up an immunity, we have a vaccine, or all of the weak die, and the rates of deaths are reduced.
  • Things gradually return to normal after several dismal years.

I certainly hope I am 100% wrong this time.

Best case scenario:

  • Vaccine is tested and produced, and administered to 90%+ of the population by January 2020.
  • Vaccine is 100% effective, and the economy begins a six-month recovery to near-normalcy.
  • Due to inconsistent vaccinnations world-wide, travel takes several years to recover, but doesn't return to 2019 levels for 5+ years, due to lost wages, closed businesses, foreclosures, etc.
 
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Here's my prediction (Warning: I'm almost always wrong in my predictions).

  • About 4 to 6 weeks after economies reopen, we'll see a resurgence of COVID infections, and the R0 number will increase beyond 1.1.
  • By then, the second quarter earnings results, and real unemployment results will be out. They'll be far worse than the perplexingly mild drops we're currently seeing reported.
  • Many states will resist re-closing, and many people will ignore social distancing orders.
  • The markets will tank, and we'll see a 50-60% drop from current levels.
  • Until there's an effective vaccine, both the number of COVID cases, and market returns will follow a repeating W-pattern.
  • Repeat.

  • Finally, either we build up an immunity, we have a vaccine, or all of the weak die, and the rates of deaths are reduced.
  • Things gradually return to normal after several dismal years.

I certainly hope I am 100% wrong this time.

Best case scenario:

  • Vaccine is tested and produced, and administered to 90%+ of the population by January 2020.
  • Vaccine is 100% effective, and the economy begins a six-month recovery to near-normalcy.
  • Due to inconsistent vaccinnations world-wide, travel takes several years to recover, but doesn't return to 2019 levels for 5+ years, due to lost wages, closed businesses, foreclosures, etc.

Agreed with the above, and a few predictions to add.

- Vaccine is not deployed until summer 2021 at the earliest. A treatment therapy is deployed this summer.
- Bankruptcies in the energy, travel (airline and car rental), restaurant, cruise line, hotel, amusement and retail industries starting now.
- Durable consumer good purchases are delayed starting now. (Autos, big household appliances)
- Steel industry and rail freight are squeezed starting now until recovery starts.
- Bankruptcy declarations will peak in the fall after credit runs out for previously sustainable companies vainly hoping to avoid a second wave and their 30 day clock starts either with creditors or corporate boards.
- Mortgage foreclosures starting in the late summer. Housing prices fall. New home construction slows to a crawl.
- Stockholders will see the effects of bankruptcies in the summer / fall and after most 2nd quarter earnings are reported.
- Political posturing and international tensions peak late summer and fall. Unknown aftereffects. (more Tariffs, Defense Production Act declarations, military provocations?)
- Second wave of infections results in elective medicine suspended again to have all hands focus on virus in the fall. Health care sector stocks suffer as this is their money maker in business.
- Some private colleges close permanently due to falling enrollment.
- State universities cut staff due to falling enrollment in the fall / winter. They compensate with an increase in 'distance learning' programs.
- State and local governments with balanced budget mandates begin cuts to services, upgrades, maintenance and staff late summer / early fall.
- Federal government employees remain unaffected - but more work from home.
- States like Illinois, Kentucky, Connecticut and California have to recon with underfunded and overpromised pension programs in the winter - after elections.
- Banks will take losses from mortgage defaults and bankruptcies in winter / early spring when the 120 day clocks run out. Lack of experienced bankruptcy specialists may slow the process.
- Low of residential and commercial REITs this winter. Selling some REITs become illiquid for an unknown period of time.
- Corporate bondholders then take a haircut if liquidated companies have assets less than bond liens. Else they become new equity shareholders as previous stockholders are wiped out.
- Economic restructuring. Reshoring some manufacturing (medical supplies will become a federal mandate) and diversifying supply chains becomes a political issue. More work from home - and how to do that efficiently will cause some jobs to be outsourced to countries such as India. Acceleration of automated manufacturing and 3D printing in USA.

I too, hope these predictions are wrong.
 
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