Preferred Stock Investing-The Good , The Bad and The In Between 2015 - 2020

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Bob, the news is getting better for NSS...Another forum member just dug this up from UBS.....


On November 22nd, NuStar amended its credit agreement to specifically exclude NSS from debt calculations with secured creditors, an UBS report on NuStar confirms: "The recent amendment to the credit agreement for NuStar Logistics suggests management intends to keep NSS outstanding beyond the January 2018 call date providing an attractive floating rate to investors. We do not view this amendment as a negative signal, and point to the NuStar Logistics 10-year bond as an institutional market indicator of where the company can access capital if required."


As a major point to emphasize through all of this re-pricing over the last couple months that NuStar's debt across all maturity have not moved which tells us the market has not anything material in the business to warrant selling. UBS takes it further as says they issue more of the 10 year at around 5%. At $25.05, it isn't the best interest payment adjusted price, you could have gotten the last 2 months BUT as the picture on NSS gets clearer that it isn't going to get called.. We should see a nice bid higher in February/March..

OK I do not understand the logic of this, UBS beleives that the interest rate would be 5% so the bond will be kept outstanding at 7+%?, what would be the reason to not try and save the interest?
 
OK I do not understand the logic of this, UBS beleives that the interest rate would be 5% so the bond will be kept outstanding at 7+%?, what would be the reason to not try and save the interest?



Its really going to be 8.41% come April if Libor stays at present rate... This is the way I see it as they really are talking to more experts than to novices such as us, so they left some key terminology out. The 5% rates are being referred to as the senior subordinate debt they can tap through the bond market... There are many covenant restrictions and such that must be met that would eliminate more senior debt being issued I suspect. NSS is really a nose hair away from being a preferred in the sense we view the word. It also has that 5 year deferral which further subordinates it. What they are saying is the bond market views the company as not being stressed. There is no way they would call this and issue lower yielding senior debt to replace it.
 
What's not clear to me why they made the amendment, what's driving the need and/or want to do this? And is that a good thing? Keeping my eye on if this has a pop to it due to the favorable rate and what appears to be a longer term investment option. Thanks for sharing.



This is a good thing because the senior creditors (those needing paid above NSS in cap stack) feel confident enough in the companies finances to treat this debt as in essence preferred stock. This thus gives company more financial breathing room for their credit lines and such as to not violate covenants and debt ratios and such. This is the way I see it anyways. I like it because it may lead to a longer period outstanding. But this is one of those rare situations that the call risk is of no concern to me as I cant lose money holding it.
Less enthusiastic but same playbook, I added to my AHT-D today. Cant lose on a call here either, but I am assuming the call odds are stronger and could happen any time to finish off the remaining float.
 
Might have to get back in AHT-D..... sold all that was not called at $25.50 ish but had bought at $25.60 and got a good number called...

But 6 cents over is not an issue and maybe they will let it ride a bit...

Also looking at adding to NSS.... I just do not want to put a bunch of money into something that has a decent chance of being called... had too many of them already...

Sold my JBN for a nice 9% gain for less than 2 months... but PIY and PFH have not panned out... was hoping for a bump from their lows and lost a bit on them... but, might hold and see what happens... still up on my trading..
 
Texas, I think this is the perfect time to be owning call risk issues. Especially if you trade some. NSS started yesterday at $25.02, one cant lose at that price and collects 8% plus until it did, which might not happen for a while. My guess is NSS lasts longer than AHT-D does.
I dont see PIA getting any traction until their long bonds trade better. They currently are basically selling 50 some cents on the dollar last I checked. People finally figured out that is what PIA is, so it really is tethered to those bonds.
 
Sold my JBN for a nice 9% gain for less than 2 months... but PIY and PFH have not panned out... was hoping for a bump from their lows and lost a bit on them... but, might hold and see what happens... still up on my trading..

I hadn't even looked at Frontier's other than noting their drop in stock price which seems to be a "gamble" type stock, just seems that some big player would make an offer and swallow them up. But hadn't looked at PIY and you have. Obviously the price reflect ongoing concern for Frontier, but what's your thoughts this for a play?
 
I hadn't even looked at Frontier's other than noting their drop in stock price which seems to be a "gamble" type stock, just seems that some big player would make an offer and swallow them up. But hadn't looked at PIY and you have. Obviously the price reflect ongoing concern for Frontier, but what's your thoughts this for a play?



500 million in market valuation and $18 billion of debt... Nobody wants this flea bag rag tag setof assets. They were the number 1 stock loser last year minus 87%. They bought assets Verizon dumped on them that they didnt want and this caused their downward spiral. There could be a bounce back spike, for traders or spec position....But history is clear... It has been on a death spiral since 2008... Straight down the mountain from $240 down to $7 range... Anybody outside of last 2 trading days that has bought this in past 10 years has got their arse served to them on a platter. The bonds outside of short maturities are priced for possible bankruptcy. Buyer beware here!
 
I hadn't even looked at Frontier's other than noting their drop in stock price which seems to be a "gamble" type stock, just seems that some big player would make an offer and swallow them up. But hadn't looked at PIY and you have. Obviously the price reflect ongoing concern for Frontier, but what's your thoughts this for a play?


Just for trading... hoping for a bounce, but did not get one...

I now have to decide if I want to take my loss and go or live with the high yield... not a large position so I might just hang on and see what happens...
 
Not to bring up old topics, but what is everyone's take on why SPLP-A is still trading at such a discount? I would think all of the sellers from the deal would be flushed out by now. Makes me wonder if we're missing something.
 
Not to bring up old topics, but what is everyone's take on why SPLP-A is still trading at such a discount? I would think all of the sellers from the deal would be flushed out by now. Makes me wonder if we're missing something.



Its a good topic! I reduced my position last week, but only because I like NSS and wanted more... My take for what its worth is it is about the range of yield 7% it should be...It never was a $25 par 6% issue...That was pure funny money... The value is in the 2/2020 put, but that is too far away for the price to factor in. I hope it drops and then I would sell something to buy more.
 
Not to bring up old topics, but what is everyone's take on why SPLP-A is still trading at such a discount? I would think all of the sellers from the deal would be flushed out by now. Makes me wonder if we're missing something.

I am with Mulligan on this... I think it might go up a bit more as opposed to him, but not to $25...

I will hold for the put and maybe sell some at that time that does not get put.. the price will probably go up the closer we get to the date... and my stay a bit afterwards...
 
I guess in my mind 2 years isn't so far away, so I expected it to start creeping up already. Anyway, your logic makes sense that it was actually not priced correctly to begin with. Another question that I couldn't find an answer to in the documentation of the deal is do we have to do anything to take advantage of the put like put in for it through our brokerage or will it just happen?
 
I guess in my mind 2 years isn't so far away, so I expected it to start creeping up already. Anyway, your logic makes sense that it was actually not priced correctly to begin with. Another question that I couldn't find an answer to in the documentation of the deal is do we have to do anything to take advantage of the put like put in for it through our brokerage or will it just happen?



Yes you will....When its formally offered. Technically they could put them today, but it makes no sense as they issued 7% preferreds to buy this but only have to pay 6%. You will have to work with broker on tender when they announce....Bought 200 more AHT-D at 25.09 today... Wanted to buy more NSS but plate is full... Actually sold off a big chunk of AILLL at 27.15 today and some at 27.10 the other day.... NSS, AHT-D, LANDP represent a decent chunk of my stash now....Highly unusual....
 
MooreBonds, is Cowen just like a small boutique investment firm?

Primarily. They might have other financial interests, but they're primarily a small boutique firm.


Its a good topic! I reduced my position last week, but only because I like NSS and wanted more... My take for what its worth is it is about the range of yield 7% it should be...It never was a $25 par 6% issue...That was pure funny money... The value is in the 2/2020 put, but that is too far away for the price to factor in. I hope it drops and then I would sell something to buy more.

Perhaps the new tax law is also lessening the value of the parent company? Wasn't one of their main plans to buy companies with large deferred tax assets, then using those deferred tax assets to lower the parent company's tax burden? With corporate taxes dropping, won't that somewhat reduce the value of DTAs? Not saying that SLPL is hanging onto a shoestring, but perhaps it's creating a little weakness?

There are different ways of calculating the yield, but from the way I look at it, holding it for 8 years to final maturity means you are buying a $21 stock now and get $25 in 8 years. That works out to an extra $.50 in capital gains in 8 years. Your current income is $1.50/year now. Add in the $.50 in cap gains and that's essentially $2.00 in total return per year (Yes, I realize you should use the future value reduced by a discount rate, but this is simple back of the envelope calculations here).

So $2 per year in gains from a $21 stock is about a 9.5% annualized total return.

Or, if you want to be more accurate, using a discount rate of 5%, the $4 in cap gains in 8 years is worth about $2.72 in today's dollars. Divide that over the 8 years you wait to get it, and that's about an extra $.34 per year in gains. Add the $1.50 in interest you get per year, and you are getting about $1.84/year for the next 8 years. Which is an 8.76% yield off of a $21 stock.

And that excludes the bonus effect of 20% of the stock called in 2 years.

So to me, it's a good risk/reward proposition, for an appropriately small portion of your portfolio. I'm already tapped out with enough shares that I want to risk to a company like this( I think my current till is about 450 shares of SPLP-A).
 
Yes, Moorebonds, I havent read anything, but this problem has already been declared by other companies. Its a non cash charge to the books. The common stock is still up near the 52 week high though... I have moved some stuff around for the coming stretch...Bought 400 of RILYL at 25.98....Sold it off a few weeks ago at $26.20 and wont miss the divi... Caved and bought a couple hundred more NSS...Also bought a few hundred more AHT-D at 25.09.
Have pushed a considerable amount of money into term dated and adjustables...Im treating AHT-D like a term dated issue, if it holds I am fine with 8.4% and almost 100 bps above in yield over its sister issues not callable... Got quite a bit of dough in NSS, LANDP, AHT-D, KYN-F, ALLY-A, GWSVP, GJT.... Adjustables and term with a bit of stretch for yield. With economy going strong and access to capital liquidity strong this is the time good time for me to stretch. I actually feel better with these near term than I do the lower safer yielding perpetuals.
 
This is a trade that wouldnt serve peoples needs for income, but for me I like a small amount on it. Bought 500 shares of GJO at $22. Chart shows 2.09% yield but that is wrong as that is annualized previous 12 months. Going forward next month the yield is 2.45% , but its YTM in 2030 is 4.23%. Now compare that to the actual 7.55% par Aa2 Walmart bond yield held in trust that is presently yielding 3.04% on the open market.. But if Fed hikes 3 times in coming year or so, we are now looking at 5% YTM of that Aa2 bond. The short end yield curve has a higher degree of probability to rise than the long end. So presently and in the future I will get higher YTM yield off a short end yield curve issue that yields better than the underlying bond that trades off the long end. Since GJO loosely trades off the short end of yield curve the price will creep up with the rate hikes allowing one to sell out if one desires. This is the 3rd attempt at keeping this issue. Previous two ended quickly because I was buying under 22 and selling at 22.40 and above while collecting a few small monthly divies. I will try to be more vigilant and hold these to see how it plays out. I also got 300 of GJT at $19.70. A am less enthralled with this one since the underlying A3 rated All State bond doesnt mature until 2036.
 
Got quite a bit of dough in NSS, LANDP, AHT-D, KYN-F, ALLY-A, GWSVP, GJT.... Adjustables and term with a bit of stretch for yield.
I'm kind of surprised to see ALLY-A down over the past 3 months and haven't seen any reason for the drop. Have you seen anything?

I unloaded CFC-B last week when I saw a sudden run up in price, thought $26.50 was going to be peak, but saw it pop another 20 cents, then drop back to nearly $26. No idea why that one went up, keeping eye on it to see if it drop back below $25.75 before div.
 
I'm kind of surprised to see ALLY-A down over the past 3 months and haven't seen any reason for the drop. Have you seen anything?



I unloaded CFC-B last week when I saw a sudden run up in price, thought $26.50 was going to be peak, but saw it pop another 20 cents, then drop back to nearly $26. No idea why that one went up, keeping eye on it to see if it drop back below $25.75 before div.



That was wise to unload at that price. Once you get a year above call price in yield on something that could be called you have to think that way. That price drop interested me to get back in. Nothing real big. I got 300 at $26.01 and 100 more at $25.91. Since I am back in ALLY-A a little late to party I worry about call. I havent found any talk from anyone about its call safety.
 
Ken, That is a great one year term dated yield. I like it...The problem its in the shipping industry. I have never got burned there and the only way to ensure the streak is not to buy, lol...I have owned SSWN before several years back and sold . Made some money on it. I got lucky and realized later I dont need to be in that playpen.
 
I need warmer weather...I was reduced to selling and buying backmy KYN-F for $40 profit. Tried to get more GJO at market open but it got awayfrom me. That thing trades half rigged anyways. I guess I will sit on my 650 and be done.
 
I need warmer weather...I was reduced to selling and buying backmy KYN-F for $40 profit. Tried to get more GJO at market open but it got awayfrom me. That thing trades half rigged anyways. I guess I will sit on my 650 and be done.

Why would you want GJO?

It is synthetic floating rate that does not even give you the interest from the bonds... the bonds are only a guarantee that you get back your principal...

So, the bonds pay 7.55%... but the floating rate is LIBOR + .50 with max of 7.5%... so the issuer is skimming off the rest of the interest payments...


Tried to look up what these bonds sell for but could not find in Vanguard...
 
Why would you want GJO?

It is synthetic floating rate that does not even give you the interest from the bonds... the bonds are only a guarantee that you get back your principal...

So, the bonds pay 7.55%... but the floating rate is LIBOR + .50 with max of 7.5%... so the issuer is skimming off the rest of the interest payments...


Tried to look up what these bonds sell for but could not find in Vanguard...



I posted it in my previous comment, Texas, it was 3.04% YTM, the bond trades at over 145. You cant get the 7.55% that was long gone 15 plus years ago. What it was and what it is are two different things. The YTM owning the strat is 100 bps higher YTM and going higher with each rate hike.
You have to understand how these things trade...They trade off the low end of the yield curve not the long end. The higher the Libor, the higher they will trade....But the higher yield you get if you hold. Would you rather own the fixed Walmart bond until 2030 with a 3.04% YTM or the strat with a present 4.23% YTM and going higher, back by the actual bond? All in all this is a lower risk, lower reward.... Im not in the camp of yields going wild..But the max payout yield is based of $25. So when you buy at $22 the max yield is higher.
 
I picked up some NSSTP for $24.65 yesterday.


Edit to add: I put this one in my speculative, mad, money account, and it was only for 100 shares.

Wine, I see this one is now trading near $26! I'd take that cap gain and if you still wanted to be in NS, buy back into the NS-B.
 
This is a very active thread, and it all sounds rather complicated to me.

I've just skimmed out of curiosity, so maybe I missed it, but how many of you are tracking your annual total return? I get the impression that these issues are to provide some downside protection, so is there a Total Market/Total Bond AA that would be close in terms of market swings? Do these preferred stock portfolios do that much better overall?

I'm guessing there's no simple answer - it depends on your picks, and buy/sell points. Any decent correlation between individuals doing this?

-ERD50
 
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