Price to renounce citizenship (US) dropping from $2,350 to $450

[Gumby]

Another problem for young men is that if you are a US Citizen living overseas you must register for selective service.

 

[Alan]

I believe that is correct based on news clips I've run across.

I do wonder how the USA finds and keeps track of "Accidental Americans" if they never live here; have no business or accounts here, never apply for a USA passport, etc. Say they're born here while mom is on vacation and she takes the child back to "country X" within a couple weeks. The child never returns, never does any business with the USA, has no accounts here, has no USA passport, etc. How would the USA fed gov't even know they exist?

Perhaps the rule could be changed so that if the child is born here and substantially resides here until 18 years old, then they become a citizen? Or something like that? It seems counter-intuitive to make it difficult for "Accidental Americans" to renounce citizenship if they wish or, really, even force it upon them in the first place if they've never even lived here.

FATCA has a lot to do with it. Every foreign financial institution, including those managing pensions has to examine its customer base and report any Americans it finds. That would include children of US citizens and those folks born in the USA. Whenever you open a bank account for example you have to explicitly state whether or not you are a US citizen.

The cheapest way for a bank or brokerage to comply with FATCA is simply to refuse to have any US customers, so many places simply don’t allow USCs to be customers. Even the huge Vanguard UK does not allow USCs as customers. (I expect Fidelity UK is the same). We have had an account at the same UK bank for almost 40 years but when we returned to England and entered a change of address process we had to admit to being USCs and then complete W9s so that our bank can report our accounts to the IRS each year.

 

[Alan]

Another problem for young men is that if you are a US Citizen living overseas you must register for selective service.

If you are a dual citizen living in the country of your other citizenship then fortunately you are exempted. It states that explicitly in our US passports.

 

[marko]

FATCA has a lot to do with it. Every foreign financial institution, including those managing pensions has to examine its customer base and report any Americans it finds. That would include children of US citizens and those folks born in the USA. Whenever you open a bank account for example you have to explicitly state whether or not you are a US citizen.
.

Shouldn't that be an easy box NOT to check? Especially in second world countries? No dog in this fight but just curious.

 

[Gumby]

If you are a dual citizen living in the country of your other citizenship then fortunately you are exempted. It states that explicitly in our US passports.

I just looked in my passport. It says the following

DUAL CITIZENSHIP - Dual nationality may hamper efforts to provide protection to dual citizens in the foreign country of their other nationality. Dual citizens who encounter problems abroad, including possible conscription for military service, should contact the nearest US Embassy or consulate.

My interpretation of that language is that if I were living in England and HM government try to draft me for service in the armed forces of the UK, I should contact the US embassy. It is not an exemption from US selective service. And I think that interpretation is confirmed by this language from the US Selective Service website

Dual Nationals
U.S. dual nationals are required by law to register with the Selective Service System within 30 days of their 18th birthday, regardless of whether they live inside or outside of the U.S. Dual nationals residing outside of the U.S. can register using a foreign address here.

https://www.sss.gov/register/who-needs-to-register/#p1

Doesn't affect either of us, but young men should keep it in mind.

 

[Alan]

Shouldn't that be an easy box NOT to check? Especially in second world countries? No dog in this fight but just curious.

I am sure that a great many folks don’t check that box but it would be lying on an official form. As long as they don’t ever plan to travel to the USA then they won’t ever get caught out like Boris Johnson who was a citizen by right of where he was born. If a person was a US citizen because a parent was a US citizen then they should feel very secure when stating that they are not a citizen because even travel to the USA won’t raise any flags.

 

[Alan]

I just looked in my passport. It says the following


My interpretation of that language is that if I were living in England and HM government try to draft me for service in the armed forces of the UK, I should contact the US embassy. It is not an exemption from US selective service. And I think that interpretation is confirmed by this language from the US Selective Service website



https://www.sss.gov/register/who-needs-to-register/#p1

Doesn't affect either of us, but young men should keep it in mind.

Interesting because the wording in my US passport has slightly different wording.

It says that if you are living in the country of your other nationality you may be conscripted for military service. It doesn’t say they can appeal to the US Embassy against possible conscription like yours does. I wonder if the wording is different because my passport was issued to a Naturalized Citizen. Place of birth in my passport simply says UNITED KINGOM, no city.

Just curious, it isn’t any issue.

 

[Gumby]

My place of birth, as set forth in my US passport, is also UNITED KINGDOM.

 

[Alan]

My place of birth, as set forth in my US passport, is also UNITED KINGDOM.

Maybe the difference wording on Dual Nationals in our passports is because you were a natural born citizen and we’re not Naturalized? Parent is a US citizen?

 

[Gumby]

My father was an American sailor. My mother was British. I was born in London. My parents were not married until after my mother and I immigrated to the US a year after my birth. When I was 11 years old, I went to see a United States District Judge, who interviewed me alone in his chambers and then signed a Certificate of Citizenship. So I am a US citizen through operation of law, not by birthright under the Constitution.

 

[Alan]

My father was an American sailor. My mother was British. I was born in London. My parents were not married until after my mother and I immigrated to the US a year after my birth. When I was 11 years old, I went to see a United States District Judge, who interviewed me alone in his chambers and then signed a Certificate of Citizenship. So I am a US citizen through operation of law, not by birthright under the Constitution.

Fascinating. Our 2 children were minors when my wife and I were Naturalized so they also simply had to undergo an interview before receiving a signed Certificate of Citizenship - didn’t have to go through the process of Naturalization, so like you must also be US citizens through operation of law, not by birthright.

 

[Gumby]

Another interesting factoid is that my mother did not become a US citizen until 32 years after we arrived in the US. I helped her study for the naturalization exam.

 

[MichaelB]

Our children were born abroad and DW was not a US citizen, so they were granted US citizenship but they were also required to spend a minimum of time living in the US between ages 14-25. It might have been 7 years total, 5 after age 14. It stressed me terribly at the time because I wasn’t sure they would meet the conditions.

The regulations changed after they were born and now for a child born abroad with one US citizen parent, that parent must have spent 5 years in the US after age 14. I know this because my son’s wife is not a US citizen and when their son was born the US Consular service told him he needed to document 5 years of physical presence in the US after age 14. I helped him collect the documentation. Not an easy thing to do.

I’ve not seen any duel citizen advisory in their passports and am not sure he ever registered for the selective service.

My wife became a permanent resident when we moved back to the US and a citizen a few years later. Everyone helped her study. When the ACA was passed and we went to register at the gov site they asked for her naturalization certificate, and it took me a stressful week to find it.

 

[brett]

This has absolutely nothing to do with patriotism.

It is all about people who may have been born in the US but only lived there in early childhood. As per Boris Johnson. Really...where do you think Johnson's roots and loyalties are. In his home country since age 2 or to the country where he happened to be born?

It is about those who early in life start a new life in another country, work, marry etc. 40 years later living in that country and establishing roots they have no reason to ever consider moving back to their country of birth.

No different from my parents, both born in the UK but moved prior to their earning years to Canada. It is not that they were not proud Brits and served in the their armed force. It was more about their adapted country.

When friends from South Africa became citizens of their new home country their SA citizenship was automatically voided according to them. SA is one of the few countries that does not allow dual citizenship.

 

[emmaswan]

This is a fascinating topic, thank you OP for starting it!

 

[fh2000]

FATCA has a lot to do with it. Every foreign financial institution, including those managing pensions has to examine its customer base and report any Americans it finds. That would include children of US citizens and those folks born in the USA. Whenever you open a bank account for example you have to explicitly state whether or not you are a US citizen.

The cheapest way for a bank or brokerage to comply with FATCA is simply to refuse to have any US customers, so many places simply don’t allow USCs to be customers. Even the huge Vanguard UK does not allow USCs as customers. (I expect Fidelity UK is the same). We have had an account at the same UK bank for almost 40 years but when we returned to England and entered a change of address process we had to admit to being USCs and then complete W9s so that our bank can report our accounts to the IRS each year.

It used to be that accounts > $10,000 are reported. Is it still true?

 

[RetiredHappy]

It used to be that accounts > $10,000 are reported. Is it still true?

Still true - Cumulative. 2 accounts, each $6K, have to be reported.

 

[Alan]

My wife became a permanent resident when we moved back to the US and a citizen a few years later. Everyone helped her study. When the ACA was passed and we went to register at the gov site they asked for her naturalization certificate, and it took me a stressful week to find it.

We went through a similar process with the ACA, I had our Naturalization certificates but the number was in the wrong format for the website! I ending up having to upload a copy and waiting for human verification. At least that was better than when my wife applied for SS from England in 2020 she was told that she had to send her Naturalization Certificate to the US Embassy in London because it had to be viewed “eau naturelle”, an upload would not do. This was during lockdown and the interviewer was calling from home so we waited until the following year before sending the documents to them, sending mine at the same time so I would be registered as a USC for when I apply.

In both cases (ACA and SS) you don’t have to be a citizen to qualify anyway, and why a US passport isn’t sufficient proof is beyond me, and why is being a Naturalized citizen so significant in those situations? We have made clear to our kids to say that they are NOT naturalized citizens whenever they have these types of forms to complete.

 

[Gumby]

We went through a similar process with the ACA, I had our Naturalization certificates but the number was in the wrong format for the website! I ending up having to upload a copy and waiting for human verification. At least that was better than when my wife applied for SS from England in 2020 she was told that she had to send her Naturalization Certificate to the US Embassy in London because it had to be viewed “eau naturelle”, an upload would not do. This was during lockdown and the interviewer was calling from home so we waited until the following year before sending the documents to them, sending mine at the same time so I would be registered as a USC for when I apply.

In both cases (ACA and SS) you don’t have to be a citizen to qualify anyway, and why a US passport isn’t sufficient proof is beyond me, and why is being a Naturalized citizen so significant in those situations? We have made clear to our kids to say that they are NOT naturalized citizens whenever they have these types of forms to complete.

In 2021, I had to send my original Certificate of Citizenship to the local Social Security office to start collecting benefits. Given the numerous times I have had to prove my citizenship over the years (to the Department of Defense, the Department of Energy and the State Department), you would think the US government already knows that.