Retiring abroad

Do you happen to know the tax ramifications of Portugal?
Do you know a good site to find the tax laws easily and "digestible" to read for non-CPA/accountants?
It is a very "trendy"/popular expat location. It looks beautiful. Even being tucked away in a "corner" of Europe, it is still very close to so many countries... Spain, France, Italy, Greece etc...

Maybe Antarctica taxes are advantageous! :LOL:

Here is the tax treaty with Portugal. At first glance there aren’t any sections on pensions.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/portugal.pdf

Fortunately the UK recognizes Roth IRAs which are also tax free in the UK.
 
Thanks Alan, I pulled ht France equivalent, but wow, I don't know that it qualifies as "digestible".

I think the following paragraph does means US pensions are only taxed in the US:

pensions and other payments made under the social security legislation of a
Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State. Pensions and other payments made under the social security legislation of France to a resident of France who is a citizen of the United States shall be
taxable only in France. The term "social security legislation" includes the Railroad Retirement Act in the case of the United States and the French social security regimes which are of a mandatory character


EDIT: expatica says the opposite, so obviously I should not rely on my own interpretation of this text :)

US citizens can also take their US-based pension to France. You’ll have to inform the US tax authorities that you’ll be paying French income tax on it.
 
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Thanks Alan, I pulled ht France equivalent, but wow, I don't know that it qualifies as "digestible".

I think the following paragraph does means US pensions are only taxed in the US:

pensions and other payments made under the social security legislation of a
Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State. Pensions and other payments made under the social security legislation of France to a resident of France who is a citizen of the United States shall be
taxable only in France. The term "social security legislation" includes the Railroad Retirement Act in the case of the United States and the French social security regimes which are of a mandatory character


EDIT: expatica says the opposite, so obviously I should not rely on my own interpretation of this text :)

US citizens can also take their US-based pension to France. You’ll have to inform the US tax authorities that you’ll be paying French income tax on it.

Your reading is correct; Expatica is wrong about this (residents of France need to report their US-sourced pensions to the French tax authorities but they don’t pay French taxes on them). The technical explanation (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/tefrench06.pdf) of the 2004 amendments to the US-France tax treaty is pretty clear:

Article III

Article III of the Protocol replaces Article 18 (Pensions) of the Convention. Article 18 provides rules for the taxation of pensions and social security benefits.

Paragraph 1

Paragraph 1 provides for exclusive source country taxation of social security benefits, pension distributions and other similar remuneration paid by a pension or other retirement arrangement established in one Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State. The rule applies to both periodic and lump sum payments.
 
Here is the tax treaty with Portugal. At first glance there aren’t any sections on pensions.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/portugal.pdf

You’d never know it from reading the “Table of Articles” but retirement income is addressed in Articles 20 (including private pensions and social security) and 21 (government pensions other than social security).
 
lol don't believe everything you read on teh Internet? what a concept!

By the way, I think the language you quoted is from the 1994/1996 text of the treaty…you should be sure you are reading the amendments too (the 2004 amendments especially changed the taxation of retirement income) or a consolidated version like this (which, again, is not from an official site so don’t rely on it without due diligence): https://franceintheus.org/IMG/pdf/Consolidated_version_of_French-US_tax_treaty.pdf
 
lol don't believe everything you read on teh Internet? what a concept!

Yeah, those things are tricky, particularly the “savings clause” which says the US can ignore bits of it if they want.

The equivalent UK - US agreement has “State pensions” such as teachers and government pensions taxable only in the US but SS and the UK equivalent only taxable in the Country of residence, consequently my SS and my UK equivalent are only taxable in the UK but my private pensions, US and UK, are taxed in both places and I use foreign tax credits to reduce the taxes.
 
I didn't think this thread would take off. I'm glad it's of interest.
 
Yeah, those things are tricky, particularly the “savings clause” which says the US can ignore bits of it if they want.

The equivalent UK - US agreement has “State pensions” such as teachers and government pensions taxable only in the US but SS and the UK equivalent only taxable in the Country of residence, consequently my SS and my UK equivalent are only taxable in the UK but my private pensions, US and UK, are taxed in both places and I use foreign tax credits to reduce the taxes.

Same. I live in the US and have a private pension from a Finnish employer. Finland withholds taxes from my payments and I use foreign tax credits in the US to reduce my tax liability in the US.

One of my nightmare scenarios was when Finland withheld taxes from my paycheck that were properly taxed by and owed to the US. I had to pay the US taxes and then appeal for the return of the money from Finland. Took years to sort out in Finland, which is very straightforward country. I now assume that whichever country has the power to withhold tax, right or wrong, will!
br
 
Your reading is correct; Expatica is wrong about this (residents of France need to report their US-sourced pensions to the French tax authorities but they don’t pay French taxes on them). The technical explanation (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/tefrench06.pdf) of the 2004 amendments to the US-France tax treaty is pretty clear:

I'm in a similar position doing due diligence for retirement in France. As part of that process, I contacted my CPA to check on the potential of taxation in France of my 401(k) and IRA pensions. Through their relationship with BDO, they researched the French tax code with current amendments and including legislation under consideration in 2020. Skipping to the bottom line, France considers 401(k) and IRAs part of a qualified government pension scheme and thus not taxable in France. This being the Internet and you have no reason to believe me. I'll post the results of BDO's research below, so everyone can read it for themselves and come to their own conclusions:

We revert back to you following your queries about the French treatment of US pensions.

After his retirement, your client will receive a US pension and distributions from US retirement plans (401k and an IRA plans). Since your client is considering moving to France for his retirement, you need to determine whether his retirement income will be subject to the French tax.

As noted, pensions are covered by Article 18 of the U.S. – France double tax treaty signed in 1978, amended by the protocol signed in 2004.

The revised Article 18 provides that pensions and payments made under the social security legislation of a contracting State or under a retirement plan are taxable exclusively in the State of source. These provisions are properly observed by the French tax authorities. Indeed, the French administration has expressly taken its view in response to various questions submitted by French MPs and confirmed that US pensions received from a French resident are not taxable in France, based on the provisions of the DTT.

The point of the US retirement plans (401 K and IRAs) has been recently discussed in the French Parliament, in last August, when a question has been submitted from a Member of Parliament to the Minister of Finance, and the French government has confirmed that the amounts distributed from these plans qualify as retirement income and are covered by the provisions of Article 18 of the DTT.

The question was the following:

“ Mr. Ronan Le Gleut drew the attention of the Secretary of State to the Minister of Economy and Finance to the tax treatment of pension plans for French expatriates in the United States upon their definitive return to France at the end of their professional career.

Given the low level of pay-as-you-go pensions in their host countries, many French expatriates take out funded pension plans as part of their professional activities, enabling them to build up retirement savings.

Amounts paid under the social security legislation of a Contracting State and amounts paid by a Contracting State under a pension plan in respect of previous employment to a resident of the other Contracting State may be taxed under Article 18 of the tax treaties only in the first-mentioned State. This is the principle of no double taxation.

This principle applies to plans qualified by Section 401 (a) of the Internal Revenue Code; Individual Retirement Plans (IRAs); qualified plans covered by Section 403 (a) and those covered by Section 403 (b).

He pointed out that both Roth IRA and Roth 401K plans are popular and relatively recent in the United States and that many French people abroad benefit from them. Contributions in both the Roth 401K and Roth IRA are not deductible from income during career and are therefore not taxable during retirement in the United States. However, the Direction Générale des Finances Publique (DGFIP) may consider the Roth account outflows to be taxable for French citizens returning to France.

As this point is not mentioned in the tax treaty, the Board of Directors is therefore asking whether the Government would be willing to negotiate an amendment to the tax treaty with the United States.”

Please find below the answer of the French Minister of Finance (published in the French Official Journal of 27/08/2020, page 3712).

“Amounts from U.S. retirement plans, whether paid in a lump sum or on a periodic basis, are taxable only in the United States pursuant to paragraph 1 of Article 18 of the August 31, 1994 Convention. The list of pension plans in paragraph 2 of the same Article does not affect this rule. The treaty also allows France to take these amounts into account in the calculation of income tax, in order to maintain the progressivity on other household income, provided that it grants a tax credit equal to the amount of French taxation corresponding to this income.”

Therefore, it can be concluded that that the US retirement income received by your client (social security payments and distributions from 401k and an IRA plans) will not be taxable in France based on the provisions of the DTT.
 
I didn’t know about the residency requirements for US funds and brokerage accounts.

What if you maintain a property in the US?

If I did this, it would be a 1 year trial or maybe rent a place for two months as a base. That would be a residency permit or just go on a long trip without special visas.

But I don’t want to open bank accounts, set up utility and Internet accounts under my own name.

Also, I don’t know how affordable the private insurance plans are to Americans unless they have at least a 1-year residency permit? Are they even accessible unless you have a residency permit?

Someone posted a link to a broker for would-be American expats and the prices were very high.

Yes the tax situation is a huge mental block for me. How much would it cost me to have someone do both my EU and US taxes? Is there TurboTax for France, Portugal or Italy?
 
I I also understand that Mexico has lower health cost. I really believe the US health industry is ripping off the public.

Yeah, we lived there for 3 years and had 1 experience with the health care there (plus dental). 3 hours in the emergency room, fluids and pain meds cost <$200. When I arrived, I was seen immediately and no red-tape. A boulder (dramatic) of a stone took me out.

We know many Canadians who come for the dental (some major, some minor). All with good stories.

Most stay on tourist visas (up to 6 months) and leave the country for 3 nights and then return. We kept our address as our daughter's in TX & never had a problem. Used ATM's for funds (our banks refunded the fees even). I, too, played the spikes in exchange rates (big-boy Monopoly).

Living there was 50% less than Dallas, living comfortably. Sometimes you have your bad days in traffic or dealing with manana mentality, but you eventually chill to those moments. We still spend a month every year there & is super easy to return quickly if needed.

Biggest negative is maybe the variety of vegetables that you miss? But the margaritas make you forget about it. :cool:
 
Thanks NoEZmoney for that thorough and thoughtful run down of expat options and considerations. It was really, really interesting and helpful.
 
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