Should i convert to roth?

lawman

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I need help..I am 65 yrs and my wife is 66. I have a traditional IRA valued at $590,000.00. We have income of $118,000.00 from pensions, $20,000.00 from Social Security, $2500.00 interest, and $25,000.00 from dividends from a brokerage account. Taking taxes and IRMAA penalties into consideration should I convert? Looks like I could convert that into a Roth, pay my tax and pay IRMAA penalty for one year and then once I am required to take RMD's I could take them all from that Roth and never pay IRMAA again..Together we have 2 more IRA'S that total about $200,00.00...Looks like a good move as long as I live a long time...YES of NO? Thanks!
 
RMDs cannot be taken from a Roth. They are based on your ages and the balances of your tax deferred accounts, and taken from those accounts. Roth is not subject to RMDs.

I don't think making a huge conversion at a high tax rate is worth avoiding IRMAA for all but the one year but you can run the numbers and see.

Generally speaking, I would try to level out your income over the rest of your years, which means doing some conversions now, basically at the level of what your RMDs would be if you had to start this year.

To get more precise, I would lay out your numbers in a spreadsheet, and use https://www.guidestone.org/resources/education/calculators/tax/tax1040 to determine your taxes at various levels of conversion, include the IRMAA impact.

Just my guess, but I'd look to convert to the top of the 24% bracket, and see how that looks. You are in 22% now without conversions or RMDs, and it doesn't take much to push you into 24%. You can either make a bunch of assumptions about future tax rates, return on investment, etc, or you can go with rough numbers that seem right.

It looks like you could convert about $200K to the top of 24%. That would get all of your tIRAs over to Roth in 4-5 years, depending on how much they grow before conversion. That would coincide with when the tax cuts expire and your tax rate (without RMDs or conversions) would become 25%.

So you convert now at 22 and 24% and then are at 25% later.

If you don't convert, you are at 22% now, but 28% later with RMDs.

If the lower tax rates remain, you convert now at 22 and 24%, then you're at 22% later.
If you don't convert, you're at 22% now and 24% later.

So to me that looks like you win if tax rates go higher, but it's basically a wash if tax rates stay the same.

I did not look at the IRMAA effects. I leave that to you.
 
RMDs cannot be taken from a Roth. They are based on your ages and the balances of your tax deferred accounts, and taken from those accounts. Roth is not subject to RMDs.

I don't think making a huge conversion at a high tax rate is worth avoiding IRMAA for all but the one year but you can run the numbers and see.

Generally speaking, I would try to level out your income over the rest of your years, which means doing some conversions now, basically at the level of what your RMDs would be if you had to start this year.

To get more precise, I would lay out your numbers in a spreadsheet, and use https://www.guidestone.org/resources/education/calculators/tax/tax1040 to determine your taxes at various levels of conversion, include the IRMAA impact.

Just my guess, but I'd look to convert to the top of the 24% bracket, and see how that looks. You are in 22% now without conversions or RMDs, and it doesn't take much to push you into 24%. You can either make a bunch of assumptions about future tax rates, return on investment, etc, or you can go with rough numbers that seem right.

It looks like you could convert about $200K to the top of 24%. That would get all of your tIRAs over to Roth in 4-5 years, depending on how much they grow before conversion. That would coincide with when the tax cuts expire and your tax rate (without RMDs or conversions) would become 25%.

So you convert now at 22 and 24% and then are at 25% later.

If you don't convert, you are at 22% now, but 28% later with RMDs.

If the lower tax rates remain, you convert now at 22 and 24%, then you're at 22% later.
If you don't convert, you're at 22% now and 24% later.

So to me that looks like you win if tax rates go higher, but it's basically a wash if tax rates stay the same.

I did not look at the IRMAA effects. I leave that to you.


Wow! I think I should stick to stuff I know more about..Seems to me like the country runs on the back of the middle class..THANKS!
 
@lawman, another tool others out here use to model Roth conversions is I-ORP.
www.i-orp.com. The extended version does it.

You will get a year by year suggested withdrawal report and even calculated IRMAA tiers.
 
Maybe convert just short of the IRMAA tier currently at $330,000.
 
I don't know much about IRMAA as it will not affect us, but Roths are not subject to RMDs.
 
I don't know much about IRMAA as it will not affect us, but Roths are not subject to RMDs.

Regular Roth's are not subject to RMD.

Roth 401K's are subject to RMD, but not taxable. A person can avoid, and should want to avoid it by rolling over the Roth 401K to a regular rollover Roth.
 
Wow! I think I should stick to stuff I know more about..Seems to me like the country runs on the back of the middle class..THANKS!

Hold on a minute. You thought that you would never have to pay tax on that money? They call it tax-deferred rather than tax-free for a reason. You probably still came out ahead. Grow up.

Not sure why you are so concerned about IRMAA as you're currently under the limit... you could convert some tIRA to Roth and still stay under the IRMAA limit.... those small conversions may or may not put you under IRMAA once RMDs begin.

$176k - $118k - $2.5k - $25k - $20k * 85% = $13.5... and you could probably do a little more since the limit will increase over the next two years.
 
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It may not make a huge difference no matter what you do.

Take a look at the charts in the linked sections of the Bogleheads wiki articles Roth IRA conversion and Traditional versus Roth examples. If you can use Excel, you can generate similar charts for your specific situation, and go from there.
 
Too bad you took SS before 70 since you would have lots more headroom for Roth conversion without that right now.

I've been levelizing my AGI to a degree since retirement at age 63, 2013.
I will be paying IRMAA surcharge "forever" but would prefer not to be in next higher tier.

RMDs start for me next January, so that will be the end of significant Roth conversions for me.
But I converted a decent amount over eight tax years, around one-third of my tax deferred amount...
 
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