Soup Lines Ahead? Bill Gross Speaks

[2B]

How do you think I ended up in the military?

The military is a lot different now than the Viet Nam era I was used to. Two, less than desirable, young men that had been "involved" with my two daughters went off to the military and got bumped out. Even with all of the talk about a shortage of military enlistees, the military seems perfectly happy to bump out trouble makers. In my day they would have been moved to a forward fire base or worse. Nobody got out early.

The increased technology also makes it essential to get a higher quality of recruit. If you have an IQ of 60, you can clean an M-16. The rest of the stuff today isn't so easy.

 

[Cut-Throat]

You hit the nail on the head there. All concerns of immigration that I see in this country seem to be rooted in racism, than any concern for anything else. When the right wing brings up immigration problems today, it is nothing more than the same old racism tune, played with a different instrument.

Racism a powerful force in the U.S. for a couple hundred years. The civil war, Civil rights struggles in the 60's and the reason the Democrats do not carry the South today. And remember that the Ku Klux Klan was a far right Christian Organization.

 

[segfault]

How about a pro-birth policy for the people who are already here?

Look how many talented intelligent people on this forum chose or choose not to have children. Having children should be made more attractive with incentives.

Ha

Check out the tax deductions and credits for education, dependents, and child care. Some of them are refundable. It's easy to put together a hypothetical middle-class tax return where the parents pay zero tax (and in some cases, less than zero). I don't have a problem with giving people with minor children a break, but those with middle-class incomes should be paying an amount of taxes that is greater than zero.

 

[Nords]

Just ask yourself, would you consider yourself to be a citizen with citizen's rights if what would in effect be a parole board could decide to deport you? Maybe they wouldn't like gays, or Jews, or Arabs, or men with long hair, or those with speech impediments or spinal coprd injuries, or those with iconoclastic and potentially revolutionary ideas.

Eh, I thought those were the criteria for joining a political party.

Social parasites and criminals should suffer certain consequences, no doubt.  That is the province of the criminal justice system.  We deport them to prison.  

Like the Colony of Georgia or Australia's Botany Bay?  I suspect that this system would tend to produce a country of fine upstanding anti-government WASPs.  I'm just not sure whether it'd be in America or wherever the Americans sent their "rejects".

I'm having a tough time agreeing with any of you, but I'm attracted to the concept that an American has to pass some sort of test.  I guess capital crimes or cheating on one's taxes would send a very clear signal as to one's desire to be a citizen. But gosh, that's right, convicted felons don't rate absentee ballots.

Racism a powerful force in the U.S. for a couple hundred years. The civil war, Civil rights struggles in the 60's and the reason the Democrats do not carry the South today. And remember that the Ku Klux Klan was a far right Christian Organization.

Racism may be the basis of immigration criteria, but Nathan Bedford Forrest's mother would be very surprised to hear your characterizations of her son's religious convictions.  I don't think that's the conclusion of Reconstruction historians like this one.

How do you think I ended up in the military?

Darn, beat me to it!

 

[Martha]

Careful here. *I am for allowing immigration for skill sets we need. *It may be young laborers or doctors. *I also see allowing immigration priorities to family members and some immigration based on compassion. * Looking closely at the Mexican/US border problems is required and we shouldn't hesitant to examine the illegal alien problem because of fear of being called racist. I have a relative who is a US citizen married to a citizen of Bolivia. *Good luck on getting him to the US. *He is a young hard worker. *The odds of him being able to immigrate are slim. *

Certainly there are US citizens I would never want. *But we can't deport all the criminals. *There is nowhere to go and they are our citizens. *And there is the problem with deporting undesirables as described by Ha. *But because we can't deport our undesirables doesn't have anything to do with what people we should let into the United States.

Nords, many states bar convicted felons from voting forever.

 

[haha]

I don't have a problem with giving people with minor children a break, but those with middle-class incomes should be paying an amount of taxes that is greater than zero. 

Though they almost always do just that, I will answer your question as if it were well informed. In a world without social security, the investment those parents make in their kids would be to their benefit when they could no longer work. But the modern government confiscates this excess, "for the benefit of all"- in other words for your benefit if you are childless which from your post I assume you are.

Or you can just let the open border operate. Oh wait- how many south of the border types would it take, even assuming they paid payroll taxes which for the most part they don't, to equal the taxes paid by one child of a middle class American citizen?

Eventually Americans will see reality. Why not start a bit earlier, and save a lot of heartache and disruption?

And Cutthroat, I love the spectacle of you sitting up in your condo in Minneapolis with your fine wines and audiophile gear and accusing of racism others who may have a bit more day to day to day contact with underclass immigrants. You may be a moderator, but in this case you don’t know what you are talking about.

Yelling racist is the equivalent of hippie leftists yelling fascist back in the 60s and 70s.
Instead of using your travel budget entirely for upscale fishing trips and resorts/cruises, go native somewhere. You will find that there is likely no large society anywhere in the world that is less racist than America.

Ha

 

[Nords]

You may be a moderator, but in this case you don’t know what you are talking about.

I don't think you understand the criteria applied to choosing this board's moderators!

 

[Gumby]

..

 

[haha]

This is an amazing post! - I'm not sure what you are saying. But let me give it a shot. - Do you mean that if I lived in another area of the country that I would be 'educated enough' to become a racist?

Since I live in a Townhouse (Not Condo)  on the outskirts of Minneapolis and drink wine, I don't have the proper skills to be a full-fledged racist? - Do you think I should strive to become a racist and do you think the U.S.A. would be a better society if all of us Blue-State Liberals became racists?

And the personal attacks, seem a little out of line for you!

Just wondering :

Well, I have been told to shut up, so I will tread very carefully here. No, CT I didn't mean what you said. I just mean that there are many reasons other than racism why someone who has to bear the daily costs of illegal immigration may not be exactly ecstatic about it.

I also think that yelling racist is a substitute for analysis.

As for the personal attack charge, I am apologize if you perceived it in that way. I did not intend to attack you, a person for whom I have the utmost respect.

I only intended to draw attention to the fact that there may be other citizens who have more to lose in this immigration situation than a well to do, well educated retired man living in an upscale enclave in the northern midwest.

Ha

 

[Cut-Throat]

Mikey,

Well, I certainly agree with you that there are citizens that may have more at stake with illegal immigration than myself. But I don't meet many of those folks on this forum or in Minneapolis.

I do see a lot of much wealthier people than myself here in Minneapolis that are deeply concerned about illegal immigration and this is what I was referring to.

I am always trying to understand the real issues behind the illegal immigration debate. If an immigrant software engineer from India came to the U.S. legally or illegally and was willing to 'take my job' for $50K per year instead of the $100K that I was making, I would be concerned and not like it. If I was a strawberry picker making $8 an hour and an immigrant (legal or illegal) from Mexico would be willing to take my job for $4 an hour, I would not like it either.

But what I can not understand is why the $100K software engineer is so angry about the immigrant strawberry picker coming to the U.S. - And this is the example that I see everyday. So I won't yell racist, and I'm interested in analysis.

 

[2B]

Well, I certainly agree with you that there are citizens that may have more at stake with illegal immigration than myself. But I don't meet many of those folks on this forum or in Minneapolis.

I do see a lot of much  wealthier people than myself here in Minneapolis that are deeply concerned about illegal immigration and this is what I was referring to.

I am always trying to understand the real issues behind the illegal immigration debate. If an immigrant software engineer from India came to the U.S. legally or illegally and was willing to 'take my job' for $50K per year instead of the $100K that I was making, I would be concerned and not like it. If I was a strawberry picker making $8 an hour and an immigrant (legal or illegal) from Mexico would be willing to take my job for $4 an hour, I would not like it either.

But what I can not understand is why the $100K software engineer is so angry about the immigrant strawberry picker coming to the U.S. - And this is the example that I see everyday. So I won't yell racist, and I'm interested in analysis.

The issue of illegal immigration is just that....it's illegal and therefor not controlled. The pro-illegal hacks like to talk about how we are "all immigrants" and that somehow means we should embrace anyone who wants to come (and presumably vote for them asap). It is true we are a nation of immigrants but until recently we have always (even in pre-revolutionary times) had and enforced immigration laws. Sometimes there were "adjustments" made to increase or decrease certain types or groups of people (some very racist by modern standards).

Bottom line. This country should control who can enter this country based on the goals of this country.

As a reflection on my time as a long term substitute teacher, the children of Hispanic illegal immigrants were almost always in the "slow" or remedial classes. It wasn't always a language issue either. Culturally, they are not driven by their parents to succeed academically. There is a very high drop out rate as the young men get construction jobs and the women become mothers. It will take several additional generations to assimilate this group over the Swedes, Irish and Viet Namese. This will create an ethnically identifiable underclass for 50 years if this can not be broken.

 

[sgeeeee]

If toilet paper is outlawed, only outlaws will have toilet paper.

This is a simple statement of fact and you can replace the words "toilet paper" with anything you like and the statment is still true. Or you can modify the statement only slightly and say, "If crossing the boarder is outlawed, only outlaws will cross the boarder".

People cross the boarder illegally today because our immigration laws do not allow them to cross legally. They also cross because they want jobs and there are clearly jobs for them to get or they would stop.

The people who cross the boarder illegally often take great personal risks to come here. Many die from exposure. Some die from treachery. They often spend a significant amount of their net worth to come here. Clearly they are motivated.

They do not tend to be well-educated and many speak very little english. This has been true of most immigrants to this country over the years. The second and third generations of the immigrating families tend to overcome these challenges. I imagine many of the posters on this board can attest to this fact for their own families.

They have a different cultural background from most of us. That culture has different values than many of us. Those values are not better and they are not worse. They are different. Over time, the desendents of these immigrants are likely to adopt more and more of our values and if we are lucky, we will adopt many of theirs.

So as CFB often asked when this issue came up, "What problem are we trying to solve?"

 

[bpp]

So as CFB often asked when this issue came up, "What problem are we trying to solve?"

This sounds like a problem:

The people who cross the boarder illegally often take great personal risks to come here. Many die from exposure. Some die from treachery.

Why don't you let them in legally, so that they don't have to risk exposure and treachery to get to the jobs that are waiting for them? Either that, or find an effective way to block illegal entry. Otherwise, it sounds like a humanitarian crisis is being allowed to fester, if nothing else.

 

[mathjak107]

well here in nyc its hard to find citizens that will deliver chinese food on a bicycle in the dead of winter so our sloppy immigration laws are a plus
sometimes

 

[mathjak107]

close the borders period i say.we have all the people we need,we dont need no more.
when our grandparents and great grandparents came here most of them assimilated into our culture very well.they learned the language ,they learned the customs.the crop of immigrints today that make it in here are very different.they dont assimilate,they dont blend and their cultures dont fit in here.america may be the land of freedom but i dont want my neighbor slaying sacrafices and dancing around in a loin cloth with a bone.even the criminals coming in are different.the mafia had a creed not to harm someones family,they would even go to great detail to make the hit when the family couldnt see it.todays criminals coming in think
nothing of wiping out entire families ,kids and all.CLOSE THEM BORDERS NOW! and why the heck DO I HAVE TO PUSH 1 FOR ENGLISH!

there,i feel better

 

[ladelfina]

Well, something has to change and the INS/DHS needs to get serious about addressing backlogs. Coming to the US after having been married in Italy was insane for us. DH (barring being a felon or having TB or something..) had a guaranteed right to permanent residency, but it still took almost a year to pull together from abroad (during which time he was not allowed to even VISIT the US); then once in the US he was issued a green card that expired in one year.. it took them more than 2 years BEYOND its expiration date to inform us that his permanent green card was ready. After more than 3 years in the US, we'd already left to go back to Italy! (I think if he'd had the permanent card in hand we might still be in the US...). How do you think a potential employer will look at someone with an expired green card and an expired letter of extension 2 years old?

The card's now waiting (I assume) at the JFK Federal Bldg.! Except now that he's left the country, we'd have to start the whole thing all over again. It's Dickensian.. the system has no concept of people's actual lives.. you could move three times, have 2 kids, or die before they even get to square one with your paperwork.

If this is how the US treats legal, law-abiding, professional, educated, English-speaking immigrants with financial means... our country is in sad shape indeed. There may have been laws and procedures in the past, but I imagine the processing took minutes or hours or days or weeks, not YEARS.

100 years ago, 80% of the population of NYC was either foreign-born or children of immigrants. At Ellis Island in 1907 they processed 1 MILLION immigrants in that year, up to 5000/day. They worked in the factories and farms, built roads and railroads, and contributed to the country's wealth. The US need immigrants!

 

[bpp]

The card's now waiting (I assume) at the JFK Federal Bldg.! Except now that he's left the country, we'd have to start the whole thing all over again. It's Dickensian..

To top it off, the IRS probably considers him still a resident (and taxable as such) even if the INS doesn't, because he hasn't yet officially surrendered his green card...

 

[ladelfina]

he hasn't yet officially surrendered his green card...

yeh, right! I wrote an e-mail to the US embassy in Florence. I'd heard that you have to make a sworn statement in front of a consular officer in addition to turning in the green card to get off the tax hook. I wanted to know what to do if he isn't in physical possession of the card.

That was in Dec. '05. Nobody answered my mail.

Right now I don't care too much since I am filing jointly which reduces our taxes; he's only made a pittance so far in his startup consultancy. Next year he should see some decent income so it will become an issue then and a phone call will be in order to see if we can sort it out. But thanks for the heads-up...

 

[Nords]

They do not tend to be well-educated and many speak very little english. This has been true of most immigrants to this country over the years. The second and third generations of the immigrating families tend to overcome these challenges. I imagine many of the posters on this board can attest to this fact for their own families.
They have a different cultural background from most of us. That culture has different values than many of us. Those values are not better and they are not worse. They are different. Over time, the desendents of these immigrants are likely to adopt more and more of our values and if we are lucky, we will adopt many of theirs.
So as CFB often asked when this issue came up, "What problem are we trying to solve?"

I think you've described the pioneer spirit of America that many immigrant's descendents have assumed is their birthright.

I don't think that closing the borders is any more effective than fighting the war on drugs. Both are huge black holes that absorb horrendous sums of money and attract tremendous corruption. The "problem" appears to be that people are perceived to be unfairly monopolizing scarce resources like hospital emergency rooms and welfare offices, or inspiring criminal activity.

As Martha has pointed out, people don't want to move if they don't have to. Perhaps the problem could be eased with some sort of EU-style exchange program among the American countries, or the payment of impact funding by the immigrant's country of origin. Or tax-break incentives to companies for hiring employees with real SSNs who'll paying into Social Security.

Otherwise we'd spend a lot less money by putting border security in the hands of those Mexican generals...

 

[REWahoo]

Otherwise we'd spend a lot less money by putting border security in the hands of those Mexican generals...

"This announcement paid for by the Kinky Friedmen for Governor Committee"

-- Willie Nelson, Chairman

 

[markplus4]

That's why we need plenty of immigrants!

I heard a radio program the other day that recognizes that to have a great economy you have to have growth and you have to have people to have growth. With a lot of the World's  mature economies, countries will be 'competing' for immigrants, because their birthrates have shrunk to low levels.

It will be fun to watch the right-wing nuts wake up and realize this and watch them scramble to come up for another word for amnesty.   I LOL whenever I hear Bush jr. talk about his 'guest worker program'  :

Must you use personal attacks in conjunction with your political posts?  I don't recall people referring to you as a "left wing nut."  Just a suggestion.