Statin Wars?

On very cold rainy days I walk the inside perimeter of the local Mega-Store. It's about 1/3 mile. So I walk it a number of times. I do wonder what store security thinks of me.
 
You’re being recorded :cool:. As we all are pretty much everywhere we go. Just smile for the camera :greetings10:.
 
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You’re being recorded ��. As we all are pretty much everywhere we go. Just smile for the camera ��.
Well heck, I should be making what the Kardashians are making. Every second of their life is recorded but I'm much more interesting.
 
I’m sure - you just need a better publicity aide.
 
"I developed cataracts caused by high dose lipitor in a 3 month period causing near blindness. "

Old Microbiologist;. May I ask what your dosage of Lipitor was? I ask because I was placed on 40 mg of the generic, Atorvastatin after a stent was placed to clear a 98% blockage. After 2 years on the statin, my liver numbers were slightly elevated. Cutting the dosage to 20 mg has solved the liver problem.
 
"I developed cataracts caused by high dose lipitor in a 3 month period causing near blindness. "

Old Microbiologist;. May I ask what your dosage of Lipitor was? I ask because I was placed on 40 mg of the generic, Atorvastatin after a stent was placed to clear a 98% blockage. After 2 years on the statin, my liver numbers were slightly elevated. Cutting the dosage to 20 mg has solved the liver problem.

He said 100mg in his post #198.
 
I've been taking 40mg of Crestor for at least 20 years. My ophthalmologist, who I see annually, keeps saying that I have the beginnings of a small cataract in one eye, but that's been 3 years now and it hasn't grown. Other eye is fine (other than that I have high myopia in both eyes since childhood). I believe every individual reacts differently to medications. It's like people not wanting their kids or themselves to be vaccinated for measles or flu. Yes, there's a very small risk of problems, but, like everything else, you have to weigh the benefit against the risk. Statins that lower cholesterol don't appear to have an adverse effect on the vast majority of people who use them.

BTW, I'm not sure which branch of service Old microbiologist served in or when, but I went into the Army in 1969, stayed for a while and never heard of anyone being given an Article 15 for sunburn or anything like that. AWOL, theft, assault, drug use, yes, of course, but we were far too preoccupied with war to worry about really minor stuff (unless the CO was a real A..hole). I know there were many experiments that used soldiers as guinea pigs (especially with the early A bombs and radiation) in the '40s and '50s, but that was history by the mid '60s. Prior to being deployed overseas I received many inoculations, as did everyone else. No adverse reactions, except that the one for Plague really burned after injection.
 
Rianne, Yes, we are very happy with our decision. Is Hungary perfect? No, it has some serious political problems and corruption at the top is amazingly bad, but in many ways the same as in the US. IMHO the US is the most corrupt country in the world now. However, that doesn't affect us being guests here. The 27% VAT is the worst part but invisible as it is already in the pricing.

Had I thought about it more before we retired there would be other alternative countries to choose which might offer similar lifestyles which would be Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria, and Romania. But now that we have been here 10 years I am very happy with our decision to live in Hungary. Strangely our town became a Mecca for the uber-rich and receives a disproportionate share of EU investment money. We benefit from that directly with new city facilities and new housing construction going up everywhere. Our health care is really inexpensive but I will caveat that with the extant problems of doctors leaving to make money elsewhere which has resulted in shortages. If you pay cash though you go straight to the top if you need something serious. Worst case there is always Germany and/or Israel which are a lot more expensive and maybe the profit motive affects doctors decisions. My extended in-law family who are Russians and super-rich get their health care done in Germany or the US and also pay cash. Comparing treatments and outcomes I would say our healthcare is actually better. I blame the EU parliament for the salary problems though. What they need to do (but never will) is establish a minimum wage that is the same for every member country in the EU. Here it is 400 HUF an hour ($1.30) so of course people leave to work in Germany or the UK. The easy fix is to mandate that everyone get paid the same minimum which is a fair living wage. Personally, we pay workers very fair at $5.50 an hour (10,000 HUF for 6 hours work). We have no trouble getting service. But, we do have a semi-full time property manager who can do nearly everything. He and I do the garden together and he does minor electrical and plumbing as well as everything else. We pay him roughly $1,000 a month. He is also a retired military and I was a rotary pilot for several years before the military decided I needed to be a microbiologist (as my MS was in Microbiology). It was the Army that sent me to Cornell for the PhD cost free to me. But, I maintained my Commercial/Instrument ticket for many years and now am a Part 107 Commercial drone pilot mostly so I can publish videos on Youtube. My wife is a serious photographer (award winning) and she tasked me to do the aerial stuff so we can "share" her hobby. Happy wife = Happy life. She hates sailing and doesn't snowboard or mountain bike so at least we have that in common.

One interesting thing here is the doctors will spend time talking to you. There is no pressure to get you in and out. You can call your doctor in the middle of the night and they will see you ASAP, and in my case I called my opthamologist about flashes in my eye at 9 PM and he had me go straight to his office in Veszprem at 2200 and he performed laser re-attachment of my retina right then and there. He actually didn't want to charge me at all but we settled on paying 60,000 HUF or roughly $200. This actually happens a lot to us and we always pay them regardless just to keep things on keel. We become friends with all the doctors we use and periodically have them over for dinner. We are in the same "class" so it isn't extraordinary. My PhD is in Immunology (Cornell) and my wife's is in Geophysics (Moscow State Institute for Oil and Gas Exploration).

It is very possible to live on a budget of $2,000 a month if you own your own house. Housing is getting expensive but only if you purchase in high cost areas. There are alternatives which are far less expensive and you can but a village house for roughly $75k which might need another $50k in renovations. Here on the lake i our area if you live 5 km from the lake the prices drop by 75%. I have Brit friends who have done that and are very happy. Utility costs are high though and are roughly 5x higher than in the US. But, there is zero property tax. The food quality is excellent and as I have mentioned more or less it would qualify as organic in the US. The drawback is beef is very tough being free range and no feedlot or hormones used. On the other hand pork and chicken is the best in the world and mostly free range. Eggs are fantastic as are fruits and vegetables. The products here actually have flavor and are healthy. Food products such as bread will go bad in several days unlike in the US because there are no permissible chemical additives.

The nice thing is that Hungary is the exact center of Europe and so many places are within a relatively short drive. Budapest has an excellent airport but we also use Vienna and sometimes Graz. Vienna airport is 2.5 hours away and the Budapest airport is 2 hours so not too different. If the M8 ever gets built then Vienna will be faster to get to. Graz will also be much faster as will the skiing in the Alps. Now the closest decent Alpine ski area (Semmelring) is roughly 2.5 hours away. We have Epleny which is 35 km away and is a decent enough hill to play around on and costs 6,000 HUF ($20) for a day ticket. I am now an old fart so I think it will be 4,000 HUF.

I have run into quite a few American Hungarians who decided to retire in Hungary. Most of them ended up in Budapest which is a fantastic city. When I was at the American embassy last I was sitting next to a retired Full Professor from Yale who said he couldn't live on his pension in the US so was coming home to Hungary where he could live like a king. I think that is a typical situation. I also have encountered quite a few Hungarian professionals who have moved back to Hungary from places like the UK, Germany, and the Netherlands. The lifestyle and living conditions are far better for them and a much more relaxed life.

I will mention here that violent crime is nearly zero and property crime is large if you are careless. We still have a plethora of Gypsies in the area and yes, the stereotype sadly is true. Still compared to other countries and especially the US crime is relatively low. I don't actually think about it and there is zero risk to walking alone at night. Add in the xenophobia and the strong anti-immigration government and you have zero problems with illegal immigrants and very few non-European immigrants. Yes, you can move here and get a residential visa. But, you have to prove you have medical insurance, at least $2000 a month income, a place to live and actually show an open-ended airline ticket should you get denied a visa for any reason. You also have to provide a 6 month background check from your last place of residence. If you qualify then there is no problem. There is an alternate way which is to be a former Hungarian or descendent of a Hungarian (which you must prove) or if you a non-EU citizen you can "invest" in Hungary roughy $500k and get a permanent resident visa. A lot of Chinese are doing the latter. EU citizens can move freely between countries so that is not a problem except potentially for UK citizens who are going to get hammered when the UK leaves the EU, if that actually happens. Those that choose to remain will have to apply for visas. You cannot get a permanent resident visa until you live here for 5 years on a temporary visa. I am applying for full citizenship next year just to have a backup plan. The language requirement is waived after age 65 (sort of as the Mayor must certify you can function in Hungary). Our mayor is a friend so that is not an obstacle. We are the only Americans I know of living in the region. There are quite a few in Budapest but I haven't encountered any out here in my 10 years living here. There are plenty of Brits and Germans. I speak passable German so have several German friends who maintain vacation houses here on the lake. There are also a fair number of Russians here as well and a growing population of Ukrainians escaping the failed state of Ukraine. The same for Romanians who are escaping the failed state of Romania. I will mention both were ruined by US foreign policy. Hungary dances a delicate dance between the EU, the US, and Russia. It is an interesting place to live.
 
Golden - I was on 100 mg which at the time was thought to clear plaque formations. This was all based on carotid ultrasound which has now been debunked as a useless test. The CAC is now the best measurement of plaque. This statin/cholesterol saga has evolved over time and you have to examine publications in the context of when they were performed.

I will mention the cardiologist who put me on this high does was also key to the development of the CAC test and it was his research which has advanced the field so I lost out based on the thinking at the time. I was incidentally a research subject for his long term study of coronary calcium and lifestyle. I was in the control group.

Beowolf - you may not have heard of it but it happens a lot. Things changed dramatically in the late 80's. The DOPMA (Defense Officer Personnel Management Act) changed how officers are evaluated and promoted. That system has resulted in down selection for leadership and up-selection for being a committee member and staying out of trouble. Perfumed Princes and sycophants now get promoted over those who actually lead. I was a field commander so am fully aware of the problems. The end result is the top ranks are filled with complete a-holes who couldn't make a decision if their lives depended on it. They are petty and take offense easily and always take revenge when possible. Some of the worst are those selected from in-elegible pools because of gender or ethnic reasons. The current selection process is a computer promotion board which reviews records. They do this in a 2 pass way and the first pass is a select -don't select decision (obvious in many cases). They have roughly 30 seconds to evaluate each record. The board is composed of 10 officers, usually Colonels. From the first pass you end up with too many officers and then they relook at each record and rank them by score. The rankins by all 10 board members are sorted and a list generated by ranking score. A line is drawn and those above the line are selected for promotion. Those below are chosen as alternates. However ow it gets looked at for ratios. They go down the list and examine ratios for black, hispanic, asian, women, etc. and if the ratio s wrong they reach down the list to the first person of whatever status in the alternate lis and move them up kicking out some officer who was selected and now becomes an alternate.They do this until whatever social goals are achieved. Sometimes they have to reach way down into the non-qualified list. It goes on from there. Congress then gets involved and they look at the list for ratios of people from their state and again the list is adjusted. The end result is some very bad officers make it up through the ranks. These are dangerous people to work with and/or for and they know it. Really, the military is an insane place to work now. Connected peple rise to the top quickly but are horrible. Casper milktoasts get promoted because they never do anything controversial. My last commander was so weak he had an executive committee made up of 10 full Colonels and they met once a week to discuss command decisions. If all 10 agreed then the commander would do it but if any of the 10 balked he wouldn't. I call it management by committee. That commander never left his office to visit any of the laboratories. This was at the largest military research facility in the world. I was once asked to brief him on what my division was doing and he had no clue we even existed. This is how things are done now.

So, in context the military despite receiving more than 50% of the Federal budget is actually desperate for money. They moved to a business oriented management style in the 90's which got so much worse after 9/11. In particular the military medical system is running at a loss and they are desperate to control costs. Part of that is the pecuniary recovery of costs for self-inflicted injuries. It is tragic to watch. I used to hang out at Walter Reed AMC (I had to go to committee meetings [we were subordinate to the WRAMC commander] as I was our Institute Safety Officer and also the member of the Facility Space Utilization Committee [the most powerful committee in the Army]) and I was a smoker so had to smoke out at the smoke shack. Nearly 100% of combat veterans are smokers and a lot of patients had to go outside to the smoke shack to smoke. So, I got to meet a large amount of them and learn about their problems. The medical retirement boards for injured soldiers is a horror story. Lose 2 legs you get 30% disability now. Things like that. It was all very sad and I am certain much worse now.
 
They think you are just another mall walker.

On very cold rainy days I walk the inside perimeter of the local Mega-Store. It's about 1/3 mile. So I walk it a number of times. I do wonder what store security thinks of me.
 
At one point I subscribed to that letter, but found its content less than thorough.


That article says nothing about how effective statins are for preventing CVD events over other interventions...just concentrates on the currently suspected but unproven side effects. Given the way the raw data from the studies is being kept from view, I wonder if any of these side effects would be proven if the data were made available. Then they do list out the confirmed side effects of muscle weakness, diabetes, and liver failure saying doctors can watch out for those.


If I were prescribed a statin, that's exactly the fluff article I'd want to read.
 
Here is a recent article by CSPI...summary says statins are safe for most people.

You do know that CSPI is the outfit that talked everyone into using trans fats back in the 80s, don't you?

They eventually realized what bad advice that was and reversed their stand, but you should never rely on the endorsement of one (or even several) organizations. Read widely and learn what you can.
 
You do know that CSPI is the outfit that talked everyone into using trans fats back in the 80s, don't you?

They eventually realized what bad advice that was and reversed their stand, but you should never rely on the endorsement of one (or even several) organizations. Read widely and learn what you can.

Exactly! Well said.

I am not convinced that the Society for Science in the “Public Interest” is acting in my personal interest. These self-appointed “health” organizations have their own agendas too.
 
Exactly! Well said.

I am not convinced that the Society for Science in the “Public Interest” is acting in my personal interest. These self-appointed “health” organizations have their own agendas too.
Bingo!


This link shows the fine example of health strategies offered by "health experts." Prepare to laugh as you scroll.


https://www.google.com/search?q=nutrition+pyramid&client=firefox-b-1-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Zjn8yPuJ9zeXTM%253A%252CSDr2km7agqBT0M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSgF1skY7H39lkAc9Hh-Qflz7II6A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiY6bTsjcnkAhUPM6wKHXJPBm0Q9QEwAHoECAcQBA#imgrc=TqxoXvYPZ_u2BM:&vet=1
 
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Hey, I'm on the side of "Use Statins" in this war.

But I gotta say, I wouldn't trust anything from CSPI, even if they are on my side. :)
 
Simple solution - don't trust anything you hear, read or see. Just wing it and the heck with the consequences :dance:.
 
Golden - I was on 100 mg which at the time was thought to clear plaque formations. This was all based on carotid ultrasound which has now been debunked as a useless test. The CAC is now the best measurement of plaque. .

So the carotid doppler that I take every year is useless? Well, crap. I just can't win. Statins are the devil and now the test I take to check on the progression of my carotid artery disease is "useless". I can only guess that the Stress test and Echocardiogram I also just had have been debunked by somebody, somewhere.

I think I'll stop going to the doctor and just sit at home and eat donuts.
 
Another potential side effect of statins which I haven't seen mentioned here is polymyalgia rheumatica. My dad woke up one day at the age of 85 with what was eventually diagnosed months later as polymyalgia rheumatica. (One doctor told me that it's typically diagnosed by eliminating other possibilities first.) Every joint hurt and it was difficult for him even to get out of bed. He had been playing tennis regularly until that day. My dad was on resuvastatin (Crestor). There is a Dutch study which concluded that "statins were significantly associated with reports of PMR" [polymyalgia rheumatica].

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402515/

When my dad was eventually put on Prednisone at least 4 months after his pain started, his joint pain went away literally overnight. But at the age of 85, he never regained his stamina or strength, and he never played tennis again. I have suspected that his vascular dementia, which began at age 90, may have resulted from the physical inactivity which started as a result of his polymyalgia rheumatica. He was nearly 95 when he died.
 
JoeWras said:
Hey, I'm on the side of "Use Statins" in this war.

But I gotta say, I wouldn't trust anything from CSPI, even if they are on my side. :)



Was it not CSPI that first praised replacing animal fats with trans fats in fast food French fries, and later blasted fast food chains for using trans fats:confused:?
 
Was it not CSPI that first praised replacing animal fats with trans fats in fast food French fries, and later blasted fast food chains for using trans fats:confused:?

Yes - they were the ones lobbying hard to get fast food chains to switch from the saturated fat used as cooking oil to trans fats before it was known that trans fats were far worse than saturated fat.

I think a lot of this is being too aggressive about changing the food supply based on epidemiological studies or even non-evidence based nutrition guidelines!! After a decade or two, scientist uncover more nuanced information and even completely change their minds about some markers and guidelines. Yet organizations can be very slow to correct the recommendations they have been aggressively marketing for decades.

CSPI has a large campaign to lower salt intake in the US. But it's not clear from studies that the US dietary recommended salt intake is good for health. Some studies indicate that too low salt intake corresponds with cardiovascular disease and that in fact the US average intake is at the lowest end of what is the healthiest range. So trying to go lower is not better for most people - those not battling high blood pressure.

https://www.cardiosmart.org/News-an...Salt-is-Associated-with-Increased-Heart-Risks
 
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So the carotid doppler that I take every year is useless? Well, crap. I just can't win. Statins are the devil and now the test I take to check on the progression of my carotid artery disease is "useless". I can only guess that the Stress test and Echocardiogram I also just had have been debunked by somebody, somewhere.

I think I'll stop going to the doctor and just sit at home and eat donuts.


Yah it's frustrating.


Do continue seeing your doctor. Do enjoy donuts in moderation in the company of others :greetings10:
 
So the carotid doppler that I take every year is useless? Well, crap. I just can't win. Statins are the devil and now the test I take to check on the progression of my carotid artery disease is "useless". I can only guess that the Stress test and Echocardiogram I also just had have been debunked by somebody, somewhere.

I think I'll stop going to the doctor and just sit at home and eat donuts.


It's not a BS test. You have a stroke or stroke-like-symptoms and guess what test they're gonna do and copiously charge you for?
 
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