Suspending Sales? Wow!

[Moemg]

I have not owned a Toyota, though I am sure that they are fine vehicles. But why is the floor mat such a big deal? We have had a few Nissans and domestic cars, and they have a little hook under the seat that goes into a grommeted hole at the right rear corner of the floor mat. The hook keeps the mat from sliding forward to interfere with the pedals. Problem solved for $0.15. Why is it so tough?

There is nothing that holds these floor mats . I spent so much time trying to straighten them out that I finally just got rid of it . A few times it would get stuck under the pedals and you would have to reach down and pull it as driving . Otherwise my Solara has been the best car I ever had . It's almost eleven years (96,000 miles)old with only a few repairs ( brakes ,water pump , starter and power window repair ) but it's starting to show it's age . My Mom has mentioned that I need a new car but I tell her just because she's old we don't toss her away just patch her up .

 

[NW-Bound]

There is nothing that holds these floor mats. I spent so much time trying to straighten them out that I finally just got rid of it.

I just went to the garage to check. Yes, both my 95 Nissan minivan and a newer 04 Nissan SUV have restraining hooks for the floor mat.

What looks like a simple boo boo ends up costing Toyota a great deal in terms of recalls, bad publicity and lost sales.

Still, for existing Toyota owners, can't you add a restraining wire yourself? I would if I had such a problem.

Many years ago, I had a 75 Datsun 280Z. Its gas cap had a retainer chain, so that an absent-minded driver like myself would not lose the cap if he forgot to replace it after refueling. It took many years before that retainer chain or strap became a standard in all cars.

 

[Moemg]

Still, for existing Toyota owners, can't you add a restraining wire yourself? I would if I had such a problem.

The thing that is annoying is these floor mats were extra so most Toyota customers have paid a few hundred dollars for mats they say to just discard . How about sending a rebate check equal to the amount or even a few coupons for oil changes . No , just discard your $250 mats and Toyota is good to go .

 

[Telly]

I don't really understand the problem with Toyota floor mats "bunching up" if they are not restrained.

I've driven, owned, and maintained cars and trucks for 40 years. I've never had trouble with floormats wanting to drive the vehicle. And in all those years, I have had only two vehicles that had the floor mats restrained by a hook, and that second one was a 2010 purchased new recently.

Of the used ones I/we bought, a few did not have floor mats with them anymore, just bought some decent aftermarket ones, no problems with them either.

So what is it about Toyota? Do they really make you pay hundreds extra to get a set of "100% factory authentic Toyota floormats" which are thin crappy POS that have no longitudinal stiffness when lying down and accordion into a bumpy mess?

Or does Toyota have some unique floor pan design that they use that seems to bedevil floor mats?

 

[Leonidas]

Edit: I read on Bloomberg yesterday that 19 people have died because of Toyota's gas pedal problems and that's over the past 10 years. In other words, you have a better chance to get killed crossing the street than driving a Toyota. Yet the gas pedal problem is all over the news (as if Toyotas were running out of control left and right), congress is investigating (led by who else but congressman Bart Stupak from Michigan, home of the American car industry), and the government (the de facto owner of GM) forced Toyota to stop selling cars... Meanwhile, close to 400,000 people have died on American roads in the past 10 years because of people who drive recklessly (more than 1/4 of the deaths are related to drunk driving) and nobody seems to give a hoot. So the media and government's outrage over this sounds more than a little hollow to me. They should start focusing on the big picture.

Good analysis, but there are other ways to look at the stats. Like that the number of incidents of unintended acceleration for Toyota products is more than double those reported for all other manufacturers combined. That seems to be a stat that Toyota should have picked up on before NHTSA came along and took action. I read a citation of federal law the other day that indicated that neither NHTSA nor Toyota had any choice in the matter once the recall was initiated - they couldn't sell those cars until they were fixed.

As for fatalities caused by intoxicated drivers, I'm not sure that is something that can be fixed. It's expensive to replace all those accelerator pedals and linkages and what not, but it's doable and a certain fix. How do we go about fixing the human propensity to do stupid things like drinking and then driving?

But there has been progress on that front. We've added 35 Million people to the population in the last ten years, about 20 Million more licensed drivers, and more than 50 Million additional vehicles on the roadway - but the annual number of fatalities from vehicle wrecks is down as are the fatalities per capita, per licensed driver and per registered vehicles (20%, 11% and 19%). Intoxicated driver caused fatalities went down 10% in one year (2007-2008) alone.

Besides, it's easier for politicians to point at a big evil corporation than to point at their constituents and tell them to stop being stupid. The constituents have a lot more votes.

 

[tmm99]

Everyone on this forum keeps on talking about floor mats. Granted, the floor mats sounds like they do bunch up and that's not a good thing, but if the floor mats were the problem, I don't see why they would stop manufacturing the cars and replacing pedals. I did own a car that actually had an accelerator pedal sticking problem back in the day (We bought a crappy used Skylark) and I get the feeling the problem with Toyota is somethign similar. They were saying on a TV news the other day that Toyota released some statement saying to put your car in neutral when this happens..

The last two cars I've owned are Honda's (both Accords) and the car before then was a Nissan (Sentra). I test drove both Camry and Accord ( in 1991) and ended up buying an Accord (I felt the Camry's steering wheel was too sensitive for me.) I didn't shop around when I was ready for a new car in 2004, since I really liked my first Accord. (BTW, my friends is still driving my 1991 Accord. It must have over 200,000 miles on it by now.) I will probably buy another Accord when it's time.

 

[tmm99]

Someone told me that this is happening only to Toyota cars manufactured in the US and the cars manufactured in Japan (driven by the people in Japan, I assume) do not have the same issue. Does anybody know if it's true?

 

[tmm99]

I've found some more detailed information here:
asahi.com¡ÊÄ«Æü¿·Ê¹¼Ò¡Ë¡§Pedal problem ignored in 2007 - English

Evidenly, Toyota knew there was a problem in 2007 and they ignored it...

 

[Moemg]

Everyone on this forum keeps on talking about floor mats. Granted, the floor mats sounds like they do bunch up and that's not a good thing, but if the floor mats were the problem, I don't see why they would stop manufacturing the cars and replacing pedals.

There are two separate recalls . The first is for the floor mats and the second is for the sticky pedal .Some models are only being recalled for the floor mat and some are being recalled for both problems . Toyota does charge extra for the floor mats . I paid $100 ten years ago so I'm sure it's more now . The interesting thing is only the drivers side mat bunches . The rest stay perfectly flat so sometimes I would substitute one of the other mats in the driver's side and it would start to bunch immediately so I finally just tossed the mat.

 

[powerplay]

I have a 99 Camry and the hook worked well to keep the drivers side floor mat in position. The hook broke a few years back and now the mat bunches up. I also paid extra to have the Toyota floor mats when I bought the car.

 

[Texas Proud]

I bet the floor mats that bunch do not have the plastic 'pin cushion' on the bottom.. my Chevy mats did not bunch.. and did not move.. and did not have a clip to hold them... but they were thick... and the bottom was plastic pins that were pushed into the carpet that was there..

If you have carpet on carpet, they tend to slide all the time... so when you are exiting the car and your right leg is pushing itself out, you push the mat toward the gas pedel or center of the car... so it is bunched..

I think floor mat problems are more than what is reported... my mother had an accident because of a stuck pedal with floor mats... but it was caused when a service man put it back in ON TOP of the accelerator...

I have had a sticking pedal on another car... but was able to put my foot under the pedal and pull it up with my foot... no major problem... but did throw out the mat...


As to the poster who thinks 19 deaths is not enough to worry about... because of all the other people who die for other reasons.... Let's say that instead of this being a stuck pedal... you would go out and start your car and it BLEW UP... killing everyone in the car... I mean, big explosion... would that make a difference in your thinking I mean, if only 19 people have died because their car blew up... who cares...

I would think if that happened... NOBODY would buy a Toyota... because you would not want to take the chance of your car blowing up... no matter how small the change it would be you... because if it was YOU, then you are dead... and I do not have to worry about that small chance with a Honda, or Ford, or Chevy etc. etc...

 

[FIREd]

As to the poster who thinks 19 deaths is not enough to worry about... because of all the other people who die for other reasons.... Let's say that instead of this being a stuck pedal... you would go out and start your car and it BLEW UP... killing everyone in the car... I mean, big explosion... would that make a difference in your thinking I mean, if only 19 people have died because their car blew up... who cares...

I would think if that happened... NOBODY would buy a Toyota... because you would not want to take the chance of your car blowing up... no matter how small the change it would be you... because if it was YOU, then you are dead... and I do not have to worry about that small chance with a Honda, or Ford, or Chevy etc. etc...

I didn't say that 19 deaths was nothing to worry about. Any death is one death too many. Toyota has a real problem with sticky accelarator pedals and should fix it ASAP. Absolutely and unequivocally. What I said was that the incidence of fatalities is still minuscule yet the media is fueling an unwarranted panic among Toyota drivers. Hey, I drive a Toyota and I could be dead tomorrow if my gas pedal gets stuck. Sure it would suck to be me. But I still drive my car. With no fear. If one Toyota out of the millions currently on the road blew up killing 19 people, I would still drive my car. With no fear. I would still have a better chance of getting killed by some a**hole running a red light than by my Toyota running out of control or blowing up. So should I stop driving?

If I wanted to live a risk-free life, I would lock myself at home, cut the water (mold risk) and electricity (fire risk), and even then I would not be able to avoid tornadoes, burglaries and heart attacks. Life is full of risks. You weight each one. Some are worth taking, others not. Driving a Toyota despite 19 people dying over 10 years because of sticky gas pedals, is a risk I am willing to take. Standing in front of a F5 tornado and hoping for the best is not.

You want to buy a Honda, Ford or Chevy so you won't have to worry about the possibility of your gas pedal getting stuck, no matter how remote... Well, Ford Explorers used to roll over and kill people. Ford Pintos used to blowup upon impact. And now they found out that some Hondas can catch on fire. So what are you gonna do? Are those risks more acceptable to you?

 

[Texas Proud]

I didn't say that 19 deaths was nothing to worry about. Any death is one death too many. Toyota has a real problem with sticky accelarator pedals and should fix it ASAP. Absolutely and unequivocally. What I said was that the incidence of fatalities is still minuscule yet the media is fueling an unwarranted panic among Toyota drivers. Hey, I drive a Toyota and I could be dead tomorrow if my gas pedal gets stuck. Sure it would suck to be me. But I still drive my car. With no fear. If one Toyota out of the millions currently on the road blew up killing 19 people, I would still drive my car. With no fear. I would still have a better chance of getting killed by some a**hole running a red light than by my Toyota running out of control or blowing up. So should I stop driving?

If I wanted to live a risk-free life, I would lock myself at home, cut the water (mold risk) and electricity (fire risk), and even then I would not be able to avoid tornadoes, burglaries and heart attacks. Life is full of risks. You weight each one. Some are worth taking, others not. Driving a Toyota despite 19 people dying over 10 years because of sticky gas pedals, is a risk I am willing to take. Standing in front of a F5 tornado and hoping for the best is not.

You want to buy a Honda, Ford or Chevy so you won't have to worry about the possibility of your gas pedal getting stuck, no matter how remote... Well, Ford Explorers used to roll over and kill people. Ford Pintos used to blowup upon impact. And now they found out that some Hondas can catch on fire. So what are you gonna do? Are those risks more acceptable to you?

The media is on it because there is not much else right now... if we get some good OJ type story... well, people will move on and Toyota will be OK..

But history shows that ignoring it does not work. Yes, the Ford Explorer rolled, the Pinto blew up (you haven't see any new pintos have you.. but then again, the Pinto was not that much worse than other cars... but there were memos stating that the cost of fixing the problem was more than paying for the crispy people), the Suzuki Samari also rolled, Audi had acceleration problems... but all companies took a hit on sales... Audi almost went out of business...

And how many people died because of the spiked Tylenol? Not many... but if it was ignored, the company would go out of business... yes, the risk is small... and I would not worry about driving a Toyota... but it is a risk that should not be there and they need to fix it...

 

[samclem]

A question no sane person is asking

Okay, here's another question for the quantitatively inclined: For the average Toyota owner, is it more dangerous to drive to the dealer and get this fixed or to continue to drive the car? A back-of-the-envelope analysis follows.

Factors:
- US automobile death rate in 2006: 1.41 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles traveled (Source: NHTSA vehicle crash stats for 2006)
- Assumed: The average driver has to drive 30 miles (total round trip) from his home to the dealer for this repair (Source--personal estimate)
- Risk of a fatal car wreck for the average driver taking this drive: 1: 4.23E-7
- The risk per mile from leaving the pedals unmodified is uncertain, but several sources (including Reuters) give the total number of deaths due to "sudden acceleration" as 19. This is up from an earlier estimate of 5. This includes fatalities due to both the accelerator pedal problem and the floor mat problem. A WAG on the number of vehicle-miles driven by all affected vehicles: let's estimate their average years on the road as 2.5 (see the recall list: One model was fitted with the suspect accelerator pedal in 2005, but most were fitted starting much later). The average car in the US is driven about 11,000 miles/yr . So, these affected vehicles were driven a total of about 6.325 x10E10 miles. If 19 people died due to the stuck accelerators, that's a rate of 3.0xE-10 deaths per mile (that's 1/1400th of the normal vehicle death rate from all causes per mile, and represents the additional risk you'd take by not getting this problem fixed. Miniscule).
- The average length of time new owners keep a car appears to be about 6 years (Source). If these owners, on average, have driven their cars for 2.5 years, then on average they'd be expected to have them for an average of 3.5 additional years. The risk of death due to the pedal defect during this time is 3.5 (years) x 11000 (avg miles per year) x 3.0E-10 (death rate per mile) = 1.16E-5.

So, based on the very uncertain estimates above, if you are average, the risk of death from the pedal problem is about is about 27 times greater than the risk of being killed in a vehicle crash while going to have the problem fixed.

Note: the calculations above disregard the risk of death to other vehicle occupants in all cases, and the risk of death to subsequent owners of unmodified vehicles. But, hey, they could drive the cart to the dealer and get the fix done themselves.

Now, if we figure that an hour spent in the dealer's waiting room is an hour of human life that has been wasted, and given the very low risk of death from runaway vehicles, I'll bet we'd find that getting this fixed results in a net loss of human life-hours compared to doing nothing--but that's a fun extra-credit calculation for another day.

 

[NW-Bound]

Well, Samclem, you are only looking at the risk of death. Granted, that risk is small, but how about close calls? How about the drivers who escaped death, but got some unwanted excitement, soiled their pants and had their day ruined? I suspect the number is higher than 19.

I tell ya, if I were a Toyota owner, I would take it to the dealer to have the problem fixed.

 

[samclem]

Well, Samclem, you are only looking at the risk of death. Granted, that risk is small, but how about close calls? How about the drivers who escaped death, but got some unwanted excitement, soiled their pants and had their day ruined? I suspect the number is higher than 19.

Right, but I figured the same ratio of close calls, nonlethal injuries, struck pedestrians, etc would happen due to other causes on the way to the dealer, so the underlying 27:1 ratio wouldn't be materially affected.

But, I agree with you. Even if the numbers had shown it to be more dangerous to drive to the dealer for the fix than to live with the tiny extra risk from this defect, I'd go get it fixed, too. Because if you were unlucky and the pedal stuck in a year or so, it would be dang hard to explain to any survivors in the ICU that you'd done the logical thing.

 

[W2R]

Now, if we figure that an hour spent in the dealer's waiting room is an hour of human life that has been wasted

Good point, if you plan to sit there. I have done that and the dealer's waiting room provides an exercise in enduring the tortures of the netherworld as far as I'm concerned.

If my Venza is ever recalled*, Frank will follow me to the dealer (about 0.25 miles from his house) and we will go have a nice lunch or something, and then when they call my cell phone number he will bring me back to pick it up. Pretty painless.

He has done this before when I had to leave my Solara at the dealer's for various reasons. Yes, he is a keeper.

*It probably won't be recalled, since that model is only on the floor mat recall list and mine has firmly anchored aftermarket floor mats.

 

[Texas Proud]

If it were me.... I would not hurry up to get it there... I think I could live with the risk involved... and get it fixed the next time I am at the dealer for an oil change or some other item that needs fixing...


I usually do that on other recalls....

 

[travelover]

There was a crude drawing in this AM's paper showing the suspected problem - excessive friction between two gears in the pedal mechanism (maybe a rack and pinion - hard to tell). I'd shoot it with WD40.

 

[TromboneAl]

There was a crude drawing in this AM's paper showing the suspected problem

This is the problem with life in a world comprised mostly of technical and scientific illiterates, the news doesn't have the technical details that an engineer would like to see. I'm sure a close-up clear diagram of what the fix is can be found, but it isn't shown on the nightly news.

Carl Sagan: We have designed our civilization based on science and technology and at the same time arranged things so that almost no one understands anything at all about science and technology. This is a clear prescription for disaster.

 

[Westernskies]

Carl Sagan: We have designed our civilization based on science and technology and at the same time arranged things so that almost no one understands anything at all about science and technology. This is a clear prescription for disaster.

Actually, it's a sinister plot so the computer nerds and techno-geeks can take over the world and get all the hot chicks...

Carl Sagan proved this theorem...

 

[FinanceDude]

Thanks Moemg. This is my first Toyota ever. I hope I didn't jinx the brand!

Is that an SE model with aftermarket wheels?

 

[Nords]

This is a clear prescription for disaster.

Sounds like social Darwinism to me, as well as a solution to your overpopulation concerns...

 

[FIREd]

Is that an SE model with aftermarket wheels?

Actually it's a LE model and I picked it off the lot as is. I really liked the SE's look but, given the topography of my driveway, I was concerned with the low skirting in the SE. So I decided to go with a sporty-looking LE instead.

 

[W2R]

I think I am going to go for a joy-ride in my new Venza in a little while. FIREdreamer, I hope you are having fun with your beautiful new Camry as well!