SWR of 6.21% for 26 years

I'll stand by that statement completely. I am quite certain of the truth of that statement and believe that most people who develop and use such techniques are well aware of the truth of that statement. The fact that you interpret what I've said to be meaningless or false is just something that I will live with.

The reason that the correlation I am speaking about in this particular statement is difficult to capture mathematically is because one of the data sets (ie. future returns) is not yet known and the cause and effect relationship of the correlation is too complex to describe with simple formula -- or even to capture in advance. Once two data sets are known (as in the case of historical data) the correlation can always be captured.

I'm still a little confused about this. What pieces of information are we seeing historically that are <>0 correlated on a consistent basis? My knowledge is admittedly not anywhere near an expert level but I see market movements in all directions in the presence of and absence of any two pieces of financial data moving together, or apart.

I see gummy pointed to a monte carlo simulator that uses correlative factors to assemble year runs. I will look at that to get an idea of what someone has considered useful and implemented in the system.
 
About using correlation in Monte Carlo simulation, there's a spreadsheet described here which does that:
http://home.golden.net/~pjponzo/Monte-Carlo.htm

About correlation between various assets, there's a table (somewhere near the bottom) here:
http://home.golden.net/~pjponzo/Covariance.htm

And a question which has always interested me:

For those on this board who suggest using SWR when you're retired (and withdrawing from your portfolio),
do you imagine doing this each year on (say) January 1 and using the result to determine what you'll withdraw
... for the remainder of that year ?


I'm retired (and withdrawing) but I've never considered doing any SWR calculation to determine my withdrawals.

As has been noted by arrete, after a bad year me & the missus don't go nowhere or spend much ... but play canasta instead :)

My method (although short lived) is about the same, i'm living off of my dividends and if necessary, I'll draw some capital. So far so good.

I'm thinking that with regards to correlations, we're all talking about 97,000 different things. I see the material you pointed to and your correlations have to do with standard deviations from the mean, and correlations between returns of various asset classes...a useful thing to reduce volatility and improve returns. Yes? Not exactly what were were discussing though.

Our original discussion had more to do with determining why a monte carlo analysis would produce more "bad" periods that were "worse" than a historic analysis would, and my original contention was that this was because the monte carlo sims I've seen (and this includes the one you pointed to) use random walk methods to sample years to put together. Since a random walk approach can assemble a set of 20 or 30 or 35 years that are "worse" with more "bad" years in them than a historical data set contains, that produced "more" "worse" results.

SG's contention was that this was not correct, that these monte carlo simulations draw correlations in the data to put together (my words here) more realistic data sets than a simple "random collection". This was coupled with a comment (from recollection, I'm sick of reading this thread) that one years returns, interest rates, inflation and other behaviors are influenced by preceding years and influence following years, and this methodology is applied to return analysis in monte carlo situations.

In the monte carlo that was linked to, I dont see a professed heuristic or bayesian capability (or anything) that applies correlations in how it assembles the data sets for returns, inflation, interest rates and so forth.

Perhaps we're splitting the wrong hairs (again).

What "correlations" exist that are influenced by prior years returns and/or market behavior, and then influence following years returns and/or market behavior, and how does this fit into a market predictive monte carlo?
 
I am 60 years old, fully retired since 1998. I have not
made any capital withdrawals as yet and none are
planned. However, with each passing year, the
angst associated with this declines. Ten years ago
capital drawdown would have been unthinkable.
Now, I could stand it.

John Galt
 
Bob_Smith:
My personal favourite "Safe" withdrawal calculation is (sorta) like this:
http://home.golden.net/~pjponzo/sensible_withdrawals.htm
Gummy, that's my favorite too. I snagged that page several months ago and have read it several times. I plan to implement that approach over the next 40 years, if I live that long. It makes a lot of sense to me and will form a major part of my strategy. Thanks for making it available!
 
Dammit amt! See what you started?
 
I'm still a little confused about this.  What pieces of information are we seeing historically that are <>0 correlated on a consistent basis?  My knowledge is admittedly not anywhere near an expert level but I see market movements in all directions in the presence of and absence of any two pieces of financial data moving together, or apart.

I see gummy pointed to a monte carlo simulator that uses correlative factors to assemble year runs.  I will look at that to get an idea of what someone has considered useful and implemented in the system.

Let me offer an example of a correlation that I thought of today that is very real, yet is almost useless as a predictor for specific events.

I hike in the dessert quite a bit and often run into rattlesnakes. I probably scare up a few dozen each year. If the weather is below about 65 - 70 degrees, rattlesnake sightings are very rare. Similarly, if the temperature is above 105 - 110 degrees, rattlesnake sitings are rare. There is a clear correlation between daytime high temperatures and rattlesnake sightings. In this particular example, the reason for this correlation is understood, but it doesn't have to be.

On any given day, however, I can look at the temperature and still not have any idea of whether or not I will see a rattlesnake on my outings that day. I've seen them when the temperatures are cold. I've seen them when the temperatures are hot. And I've been out on many days when the temperature is perfect for rattlesnakes and not seen a one.

There is a correlation between temperature and rattlesnake activity. If I collected the data sets on all my outings that included daytime temperatures and rattlesnake sightings, a correlation analysis would find a significant correlation. But temperature is not the only factor. In fact, the factors that contribute to the sighting event are so complex and numerous, that temperature alone will not allow me to make reliable predictions.
 
. . .
So as far as I can tell, we're in complete violent agreement on these topics.

I am truely happy about the agreement part, and I pledge to try to make that agreement less violent. :D
 
Let me offer an example of a correlation that I thought of today that is very real, yet is almost useless as a predictor for specific events.

I hike in the dessert quite a bit and often run into rattlesnakes. I probably scare up a few dozen each year. If the weather is below about 65 - 70 degrees, rattlesnake sightings are very rare. Similarly, if the temperature is above 105 - 110 degrees, rattlesnake sitings are rare. There is a clear correlation between daytime high temperatures and rattlesnake sightings. In this particular example, the reason for this correlation is understood, but it doesn't have to be.

On any given day, however, I can look at the temperature and still not have any idea of whether or not I will see a rattlesnake on my outings that day. I've seen them when the temperatures are cold. I've seen them when the temperatures are hot. And I've been out on many days when the temperature is perfect for rattlesnakes and not seen a one.

There is a correlation between temperature and rattlesnake activity. If I collected the data sets on all my outings that included daytime temperatures and rattlesnake sightings, a correlation analysis would find a significant correlation. But temperature is not the only factor. In fact, the factors that contribute to the sighting event are so complex and numerous, that temperature alone will not allow me to make reliable predictions.
We're missing. I completely understand what correlation means. What I'm asking is WHAT items do you believe are correlated in historic investing data. In specific, you said specific correlations are used to assemble monte carlo situations (as opposed to the simple random walks that I thought they all were).

Just to revisit and perhaps explain my fascination with this, my former life as I may have mentioned once or twice was as the marketing droid responsible for driving higher microprocessor usage tools and products. I drove the investment of about $300M into companies that built products based on bayesian and neural nets, AI, smart handwriting recognition, active group collaboration tools, simulation tools (like those monte carlo simulators), etc. I sat on the board of a handful of these investments. I ran $40M worth of programs to encourage universities to come up with better ideas. My efforts were responsible for as much as $3B in incremental revenues to the company.

In otherwords, I dont need a lesson in what these are...:)

Some of the companies we worked with were developing tools to analyze stock market data looking for ANY correlations, past present or future. Particular interest in the future.

At the time I retired, NOBODY had ANYTHING that could hook what happened in any one year to the ones before or after with any strong correlation in the way that (i think) you described.

What you described was that there are correlations between SOMETHING (and THATS what I want to know) and SOMETHING ELSE (and that too!), that work better historically to connect returns and movements from one year, and those that went before and after. And that these are used by some monte carlo simulators to put together strings of years in an investment returns run, and that they therefore arent random, and that this somehow explained why monte carlo simulators return worse results than simple historic analysis.

Since nothing like that existed at the time I quit 3 years ago, and you say stuff like this exists (even if in theory only), I wanna know what the heck it is!

So what I want to know is:

#1 - What two or more things create correlations in any kind of market data, current past or future, that connect that years returns or behaviors to years past...ex: when interest rates are high, bond prices fall sort of correlations.

#2 - How are these applied to monte carlo simulations to create the run periods and/or produce their data walks.

#3 - Where are these monte carlo simulators. The one gummy pointed to appears to create its data runs through random walk.
 
We're missing.

Yes, I can see that now. Either I misspoke or you misread. The only financial monte carlo program I know of that includes any attempt to include one of the correlation factors I was discussing is the one raddr has produced and discussed on his web site. Here are a couple of links:

raddr's monte carlo simulation --
http://nofeeboards.com/raddr/enhanced_monte_simulation.htm

discussion of the simulator --
http://nofeeboards.com/raddr/Rebalance.htm  

He accomplishes the RTM (historical) correlation effect differently than I would have approached it and he discusses some of the limitations. But it's more than any other monte carlo effort I'm aware of and the more I thought about it, the more I liked it.

#1 - What two or more things create correlations in any kind of market data, current past or future, that connect that years returns or behaviors to years past...ex: when interest rates are high, bond prices fall sort of correlations.

#2 - How are these applied to monte carlo simulations to create the run periods and/or produce their data walks.

#3 - Where are these monte carlo simulators.  The one gummy pointed to appears to create its data runs through random walk.

All monte carlo simulators create their "input" data using random number generators. But usually not directly. The random number is used as the input of an equation that produces a distribution of results that (hopefully) approximates the observed distribution. There are a couple of standard ways to include correlations between input variables that could be used in financial monte carlo simulators. One way to do this is to vary the mean and sigma of the distribution function of one variable based on the value of another variable. So, for example, you could use your first random number to predict a stock return. Then based on that return value select a mean and sigma that would be used with your next random number to predict bond returns. You can similarly relate inflation to bond returns.

I am not aware of any monte carlo simulators that do that today, and that is one of the reasons they provide pessimistic results. There is nothing in the programs that keep stock, bond and inflation rates from varying without regard for each other. Yet, in reality, they are correlated in important ways.
 
Dammit amt! See what you started?
:eek: Oh my! I'm awe struck by the depth of these discussions. Very glad to be learning from you folks.
 
I am truely happy about the agreement part, and I pledge to try to make that agreement less violent.

The proposal I put forward below is not directly connected to the discussion that caused SalaryGuru to make the above comment. But it is so in tune with the spirit of this comment that I thought I would use SalaryGuru's words as a kick-off.

My sense is that we are in agreement on the two core questions.

1) We agree that the conventional methodology SWR studies offer information of great value to aspiring early retirees. I have long recommended that anyone with a serious interest in early retirement read these studies and use them to formulate their investment stratagies, as I have. I don't know of anyone who takes issue with this recommendation.

2) We are generally in agreement that the number generated by the conventional methodology studies does not provide true safety in the event that a worst-case scenario pops up in one's retirement. There have been a good number of posters who have said that those using the 4 percent number or the 6 percent number need to include a good bit of slack in their plans to cover themselves in the event of a worst-case scenario. By definition, the SWR number is the number that works in the worst case, so not much slack should be necessary if the number were being calculated properly.

I believe that we are in general agreement on the facts and on the nature of the advice that we should be giving to aspiring early retirees. There are lots of things we still do not know, to be sure. There are lots of questions we still need to examine in more depth. But I don't see that there is any good reason why there should need to be a greater-than-average contentiousness in these discussions from this point forward.

It seems to me that all the friction that has been experienced in the past has come as the result of differences over terminology. The SWR is defined as the number that works in the worst-case scenario, and, because the conventional methodology does not adjust for valuation, there are serious grounds for doubt as to whether the conventional methodology number will work in worst-case scenarios for retirements beginning at times of extremely high valuation levels.

That said, the conventional methodology number might work for retirements that do not experience a worst-case scenario. In any event, some retirees may reasonably view the true SWR number as overly conservative and may elect to employ the conventional methodology number in their plans. There is obviously nothing wrong with them doing so, and they obviously need access to the conventional methodology studies (and to discussions about them) to do this.

I propose a change in terminology. I propose that we begin referring to the conventional methodology number as the "historical surviving withdrawal rate (HSWR)." That is what it is. It is a number that worked in the past. There are concerns that it may not work in the future, but it is up to the retiree using the tool to determine for himself how serious he thinks those concerns are.

I believe that the project that I and JWR1945 are engaged in is a project to determine the true SWR. But neither of us has ever said a word critical of the HSWR concept (other than to say that it is not the true SWR, which is not intended as a criticism but merely as a correction of an analytical mistake first made by whoever it was who first came up with the conventional methodology years before any of these boards were in existence).

Does anyone see any appeal in making this change in terminology as a means of insuring that discussions of SWRs and HSWRs remain fruitful and do not get tangled up in unproductive disputes over semantics?
 
I propose a change in terminology. I propose that we begin referring to the conventional methodology number as the "historical surviving withdrawal rate (HSWR)."
A change in terminology is probably a good idea. We could nitpick further and call it the "historical survivnig withdrawal rate based on Jan-Dec returns with once per year withdrawals based on overlapping sample periods"; I leave the acronym as an exercise for the reader, but perhaps someone can suggest an even more appropriate name. Perhaps "Statistical Historical Reality Check WR" to guide its usefulness.

I believe that the project that I and JWR1945 are engaged in is a project to determine the true SWR.
Should we hear a chorus of angels singing yet? :D Seriously, the term "true" may indicate too much confidence in any predictive number. It sounds as if it's becomming a religious belief, and pushing religious beliefs on others is much more difficult than offering new SWR tools and insights.

Or put more simply calling it the true SWR will cause a lot more ER BBS arguing.

Other than that I'm all for other people doing lots of hard work that increases my confidence in retiring early. :D

Thanks!
 
Seriously, the term "true" may indicate too much confidence in any predictive number.
Well, there two approaches to getting close to a true SWR:

1) Improve our ability to predict stock market returns (and I'm dismayed that this thread still hasn't come to the logical conclusion that I've been hinting at: stock prices are set by humans, so all you need to do is model human behavior  :))

2) Reduce the unknowns.   For example, with a 100% TIPS portfolio, the SWR is approximately the real yield of the TIPS you purchased + 2%.
 
BigMoney:

I'd suggest
Statistical Historical Investigation of Termination ::)
 
I'd suggest
Statistical Historical Investigation of Termination ::)
For the sake of any boy who ever got a thrill out of looking up dirty words in the dictionary or reading them in literature (myself included), I agree on that term and can't wait to see the writeup in the Wall Street Journal and Forbes.

Furthermore it's more descriptively correct and has an acronym that reminds us of its certainty for future evaluations. Brilliant.

Wabmester:
(and I'm dismayed that this thread still hasn't come to the logical conclusion that I've been hinting at: stock prices are set by humans, so all you need to do is model human behavior )
That's perfect for this group; throw out Bogle and Bernstein, bring in Myers, Briggs, Keirsey and Montgomery! INTPs and INTJs rejoice, leave the offtopic forum and join the SWR--I mean the Statistical Historical Investigation of Termination--forum.
 
TH,

You conceded, I think, that long term stock and
bond returns are predictable via the Gorden Equation. You used a 30 yr time frame as I recall.

Bogle, in his book "Bogle on Mutual Funds",
shows a chart on page 249 of all 10 year periods
from 1957 through 1992 of the forecast vs actual
returns for stocks and bonds. The correlation for
stocks between forecast and actual was 0.77 and
the correlation for bonds was 0.96. The std deviation
was 3% on a mean return of 11% for stocks and
was 1.5% on a mean return of 5% for bonds. These
data, as they say in the trade, are statistically
significant.

This underlying correlation is still present in shorter
time periods but becomes increasingly swamped out
by the "noise" of the dog going in all different directions.
Someone else pointed this out in an earlier post, but
the sage comment was lost in all the uproar.

You asked for a formula and data to demonstrate
correlation. I think Bogle responded to the challenge.

Cheers.

Charlie (aka Chuck-Lyn of the Lucile St. Gang)
 
Gummy asked:
I always found it curious that people who calculate a 30-year SWR based upon the worst 30 years (in the last 75 or 100 years) assume (I suppose?) that they're considering calendar years: Jan thru Dec.

Has anybuddy considered years starting in Feb or Mar or whatever?

Yes. You can see the results at the Retire Early Home Page site. This is for the Retire Early Safe Withdrawal Calculator, Version 1.61, dated November 7, 2002. You can select any month using this (latest) version.
http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/re60.html

Have fun.

John R.
 
JWR1945:

Neato!

(I'm surprised at the similarity of results!)
 
. . .Seriously, the term "true" may indicate too much confidence in any predictive number. It sounds as if it's becomming a religious belief, and pushing religious beliefs on others is much more difficult than offering new SWR tools and insights. . .
Yeah, I think BMJ has a good point. Some may not like the term safe withdrawal rate as applied to the number that comes out of a historical simulator, but the term "true safe withdrawal rate" applied to a number that comes from a more complex and (at least some think) questionable historical analysis is probably not a good thing. I think your use of the term "works under the worst case scenario" could also lead to more debates rather than fewer. The historically derived SWR, by definition, works under the worst case scenario from our history. So do you propose to somehow predict what the worst case scenario of the future is going to be?

I can tell you two possible worst case scenarios: 1) you die tomorrow => SWR is as much as you can spend today. 2) you work for wages till you die => SWR is equivalent to your take home pay. I'm not going to plan for either one of these. :D

Seriously, tell me what you think worst case scenario is, and I'll bet I can come up with a worse one.
 
Statistical Historical Investigation of Termination

Well, I think gummy's nailed it, so to speak. Case closed.

I like the sensible withdrawal rate followed by ignoring the whole thing after retirement method.

arrete - darn good thing there was nothing in my mouth when I read that.
 
Whoops...that acronym already has been allocated...

In this thread, I'll repost here...
http://early-retirement.org/cgi-bin..._board;action=display;num=1078354731;start=11

TO: ALL EMPLOYEES
FR: MANAGEMENT
RE: SPECIAL HIGH INTENSITY TRAINING

In order to assure the highest levels of quality work and productivity from employees, it will be our policy to keep all employees well trained through our program of SPECIAL HIGH INTENSITY TRAINING (S.H.I.T.). We are trying to give employees more S.H.I.T. than anyone else.

If you feel that you do not receive your share of S.H.I.T. on the job, please see your manager. You will be immediately placed at the top of the S.H.I.T. list, and our managers are especially skilled at seeing that you get all the S.H.I.T. you can handle.

Employees who don't take their S.H.I.T. will be placed in DEPARTMENTAL EMPLOYEE EVALUATION PROGRAMS (D.E.E.P. S.H.I.T.). Those who fail to take D.E.E.P. S.H.I.T. seriously will have to go to EMPLOYEE ATTITUDE TRAINING (E.A.T. S.H.I.T.). Since our managers took S.H.I.T. before they were promoted, they don't have to do S.H.I.T. anymore, and are all full of S.H.I.T. already.

If you are full of S.H.I.T., you may be interested in a job training others. We can add your name to our BASIC UNDERSTANDING LECTURE LIST (B.U.L.L. S.H.I.T.). Those who are full of B.U.L.L. S.H.I.T. will get the S.H.I.T. jobs, and can apply for promotion to DIRECTOR OF INTENSITY PROGRAMMING (D.I.P. S.H.I.T.).

If you have further questions, please direct them to our HEAD OF TRAINING, SPECIAL HIGH INTENSITY TRAINING (H.O.T. S.H.I.T.).

Thank you,

BOSS IN GENERAL
SPECIAL HIGH INTENSITY TRAINING
(B.I.G. S.H.I.T.)
 
Seriously, tell me what you think worst case scenario is, and I'll bet I can come up with a worse one.

The approach that I take with the data-based SWR concept is to include a caveat that the number works if the future is not worse than the past. By the phrase "if the future is not worse than the past," I mean to cover the possibility of economic calamities like hyperinflation or nuclear war or political instability, anything so bad that it could cause the U.S. stock market to perform worse than you would otherwise expect to see it perform given how it has performed in the past. I do not include within the caveat the possibility that we will see lower returns as the result of starting from higher valuation levels because that it is a result you would expect given that higher valuation levels have always caused lower long-term returns in the past.

I understand that there is no number that will work with 100 percent certainty. I am not sure that it is such a big deal not to cover the possibility of things like nuclear war, however. In the event of nuclear war or hyperinflation, all bets are probably off anyway. There simply is no way to effectively account for that sort of thing in your investment strategies. In contrast, it is possible to account for the likelihood that high valuation levels will continue to result in lower long-term returns. So I think that that factor should be included in SWR (but not HSWR) analysis.

The purpose of the terminology I was proposing was to clarify the essential difference between the two methodologies. The conventional methodology is not really aiming to determine the number that applies on a going-forward basis. What the conventional methodology does is report on what has happened historically, it sums up the historical data in one neat little bundle of a number. The data-based SWR concept, in contrast, uses a methodology that is forward-looking. That is why it requires inclusion of an adjustment for changes in valuation.

It was not my aim to paint the conventional methodology in a bad light. I was trying in the wording of my post not to do that. My expectation would be that the majority of the board community would continue to prefer the conventional methodology number (the HSWR) over the data-based methodology number (the SWR). I don't see this as a question of "good" or "bad," or "better" or "best" (although I obviously have my personal preference, as I presume most others do). I believe that the two methodologies serve different purposes, and that the discussions get tangled because people are often applying standards that only make sense for one of the two methodologies to the other.

The big problem we have had is that the debate has become so personalized. I say "the conventional methodology is analytically invalid," and people hear this as a criticism of people who have supported the conventional methodology. It is not intended as that. It is intended as the expression of a belief that the conventional methodology does not generate the number described in the definition used in the analysis. The more precise way to say things is to say "the conventional methodology is analytically invalid for purposes of determining SWRs." It does what it does just fine. It just doesn't tell you the SWR, as defined for purposes of the analytical process being employed.

Changing the terminology would be a shorthand way of putting people on notice of all this, of letting them know up-front the purposes of the analyses being performed. The HSWR should not be expected to do what the SWR does, and the SWR should not be expected to do what the HSWR does. They are two different concepts, and it would ease discussion if we referred to them by two different names.

You have said, SalaryGuru, that you are not sure whether Bernstein is right or wrong when he says that the conventional methodology number is "misleading" at times of high valuation. That response suggests to me that you might be a good candidate to favor the HSWR number in your planning. I feel confident that Bernstein is right on this point, so I am a good candidate to favor the SWR.

It is a matter of different strokes for different folks, not a matter of declaring some folks right and other folks wrong. I am not trying to take away the analytical tool that we have made use of in the past. I am trying to add a new analytical tool to our community toolbox.
 
I dont think that over the medium to long term, a horrific event like a briefcase nuke going off in DC, a dirty bomb over manhattan or a multinational war in the middle east would really make a major difference. A short term significant drop, eventually made up in a few years.

Think about it: the primary driver of short to medium term returns is risk premium. I think the biggest medium long term danger is a continued slide of the risk premium and its attendant lower stock returns and interest rates. Some awful thing happening like this is simply going to pump up the risk premium. A hell of a cold way to think about it, but we're in the numbers here.

I think the REAL worst case scenario is a return to mean historic valuation, minus a little risk premium against time periods like the 30's or the 70's, giving us 1-2% "real" bond returns and 2-3% "real" stock returns, coupled with occasional hiccups in inflation that bring that "real" return to near zero. In other words, a 25-30% drop in our net portfolios followed by a weaker than historic SWR return rate over a 20+ year period.

Its double damning. On one hand because the investment value of a majority of our withdrawal period could be nullified, and because I would bet that 90-something percent of us would pull from the stock market or go back to work WELL before we watched our money do nothing for 20 years. Hell I'd be willing to bet that when I showed up for my walmart greeters job I'd be shift replacing Bogle. Nobody is mechanical enough to "go down with the ship" over that long a period of time.
 
. . . The approach that I take with the data-based SWR concept is to include a caveat that the number works if the future is not worse than the past.
*****, this statement makes me think that you do not understand what the current historical simulators do.

First, the current simulators are entirely data-based. Whereas what you describe is not.

Second, if the future is not worse than the past, then the FIRECALC SWR will work today.

You claim to have come up with a method that includes a stock valuation bias added to existing data-based analysis that is important. While qualitatively this argument is appealing, you have not 1) quantified the accuracy of your valuation metric and 2) established any causal proof that your analysis of that metric can improve the numbers that come from the conventional data-based method.

You need to do those things before you try to tell us that you have a great method. I'm not saying you are wrong to want to augment the existing historical simulations, simply that you have not done the work yet. That is why many people disregard your claims.

I understand that there is no number that will work with 100 percent certainty. I am not sure that it is such a big deal not to cover the possibility of things like nuclear war, however. In the event of nuclear war or hyperinflation, all bets are probably off anyway. There simply is no way to effectively account for that sort of thing in your investment strategies. In contrast, it is possible to account for the likelihood that high valuation levels will continue to result in lower long-term returns. So I think that that factor should be included in SWR (but not HSWR) analysis..
Okay, so you throw out nuclear war. I don't think anyone will lose sleep over the absence of that in their safe withdrawal calculator. (They may lose sleep over the fear of nuclear war, but not their portfolio survival after the bomb). But how do you define hyperinflation? What's the inflation rate for how long before it is hyperinflation. How large a stock market decline for how many years is the "worst case". You throw that term around as if you are solving a problem that conventional historical data-based simulators will not solve. But what problem is that exactly? -- not philosophically . . . numerically!

. . . The purpose of the terminology I was proposing was to clarify the essential difference between the two methodologies. The conventional methodology is not really aiming to determine the number that applies on a going-forward basis. What the conventional methodology does is report on what has happened historically, it sums up the historical data in one neat little bundle of a number. The data-based SWR concept, in contrast, uses a methodology that is forward-looking. That is why it requires inclusion of an adjustment for changes in valuation.
*****, your proposal is no more forward looking than the conventional methodology. Both look at history and assume that the future will be no worse than the past. You want to apply a current valuation metric and predict stock market returns based on that valuation as you look forward. The conventional method simply takes the data at face value.

. . . I don't see this as a question of "good" or "bad," or "better" or "best" (although I obviously have my personal preference, as I presume most others do). I believe that the two methodologies serve different purposes, and that the discussions get tangled because people are often applying standards that only make sense for one of the two methodologies to the other.
Okay. Let's get to the point. You haven't produced a methodology. You've spoken of a philosophy. Give me a simulator that allows me to simulate my situation and derive a safe withdrawal rate and I'll use it. I will test it. I will discuss it's strengths and weaknesses. In the absence of a simulator, give me some numbers I can compare to values I get from FIRECALC.

. . . It is a matter of different strokes for different folks, not a matter of declaring some folks right and other folks wrong. I am not trying to take away the analytical tool that we have made use of in the past. I am trying to add a new analytical tool to our community toolbox.

*****, it's a matter of not offering us a real choice. I can use a historical data-based simulator like FIRECALC or a monte carlo simulator to get me in the ballpark of my retirement needs, or I can talk philosophy with you. Give us another real choice and we will all try it. But be warned . . . once people start trying to use a new simulation approach, the work of supporting it and answering questions about it will really begin.
 
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