Terrible North Miami Beach condo collapse

[karen1972]

Thanks. I knew "fire break" didn't sound right. I guess that's in a forest.

The firebreaks do a great job these days in minimizing danger to neighboring units, but some damage to other townhomes is still pretty common from fire, so much so that our new townhome HOA has a specific clause requiring minimums for liability on your homeowner insurance to cover it. Though I assume its not so much fire but gas explosion that could ensue due to fire.

 

[audreyh1]

The firebreaks do a great job these days in minimizing danger to neighboring units, but some damage to other townhomes is still pretty common from fire, so much so that our new townhome HOA has a specific clause requiring minimums for liability on your homeowner insurance to cover it. Though I assume its not so much fire but gas explosion that could ensue due to fire.

Smoke damage would be a big one.

 

[Nick12]

I wouldn't be surprised if high-rise condo prices in similar areas in FL came down a bit...

There will always be bottom feeders looking to buy real estate at very depressed prices.

 

[Running_Man]

I wonder if there's a precedent to this. How can it be proven that the building material was substandard, instead of neglect and poor maintenance by the condo owners?

And then, there's also wear-and-tear issue. We don't expect our public roadways and bridges to last forever, do we? What is reasonable to expect here for a building in a climate and terrain-challenged situation? Do experts even agree?

This is going to be messy.

It is going to be hard for this not to be laid at the feet of the Condo owners and their association. They were informed in 2018 that the area underneath the pool deck needed immediate repair and a woman on the phone just prior to the collapse noted on the phone that the pool just collapsed into the ground, indicating what the inspector noted over 3 years ago and warned would be exponential in potential damage as time went by was not repaired. Even though it was an original design flaw, the association knew of it and did nothing, only beginning repairs (and starting with roof!) when the inspection came for 40 year permitting.
https://nypost.com/2021/06/28/woman-missing-in-fl-condo-told-husband-on-phone-she-saw-pool-cave-in/

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252385083.html

So while the original design was flawed and the owners may have had a claim against the original firm that built it, by doing nothing the condo association accepted responsibility. Because the collapses are so rare, it is all too common to push off any needed maintenance. Going forward I think this will be a bigger focus so there will probably be a surge of condo fees for repairs in the Miami area for sure.

 

[Freedom56]

Newer condos like our also have sprinklers in each unit and common areas so fires can be contained. We also have hurricane impact glass. Our building is rated for a Category 4 hurricane. However many of the condos in Palm Beach Country were built in the early 70's and 80's. We looked at a few in Boca Raton along South Ocean Blvd back in 2011 and some were in horrible condition back then. I don't think things have improved over the past 10 years. I think buyers will think twice before putting money down on these older condos.

 

[sengsational]

If it turns out to be a sudden sink hole, seems like everyone will be so disappointed...no bad guy, just "a bad mother" (nature). If it was a slow sink hole, the type most often seen in that area, then there is a "bad-guy": the owners that didn't act on the information as it sank. Speculation about shady contractors is pretty far down on my list.

 

[Jim59]

Do the insurance companies have a get-out, if engineering reports have suggested remedial action and maintenance is required and this work has not been carried out, meaning the building is in a poor state of repair.

 

[Ian S]

Does a condo actually carry replacement value for a building, like a homeowner does ?

After all a fire in a unit , often only damages the building a tiny bit. In a house it can easily destroy the entire structure.

It can get complicated but our previous HOA carries replacement insurance for the basic structure. Residents are allowed to make changes to the interior but if they make significant architectural changes, they will will have to add riders to their condo policies to cover them.

 

[Popeye]

Do the insurance companies have a get-out, if engineering reports have suggested remedial action and maintenance is required and this work has not been carried out, meaning the building is in a poor state of repair.

My question is what did the 2018 engineering report actually say? I have only seen snippets from it. I doubt it said, “Fix x,y, and z or the building might collapse in a couple years”. We don’t know if what the report noted caused the collapse. If it did, and there was no warning of how serious the situation was then the engineering company may share some liability. I notice they are being pretty silent. I’m sure their lawyers made sure of that!

One piece I read had something to the effect of saying this report will make clear to the association the condition or situation. It wasn’t a very definitive conclusion. A condo board is not really qualified to read a report of issues and make a conclusion as to the building’s integrity. That’s what they hire the engineer to do!

One thing I have not seen mentioned is how that town handles storm water runoff. If an underground culvert for runoff failed, that could lead to erosion pretty quickly and could be invisible to the surface. As many have said, we won’t know for months.

 

[Nick12]

If it turns out to be a sudden sink hole, seems like everyone will be so disappointed...no bad guy, just "a bad mother" (nature). If it was a slow sink hole, the type most often seen in that area, then there is a "bad-guy": the owners that didn't act on the information as it sank. Speculation about shady contractors is pretty far down on my list.

CNN is reporting that there were engineering recommendations of $15M worth of building repairs regarding the affected buildings. With all that said, there comes the task on how it is going to be paid for ( future assessment fees passed on to condo owners etc, ).

 

[Amethyst]

If the residents really did know about the need for $15 million in repairs, and pushed back because they didn't want to mortgage their homes to pay for it, what liability does that represent for anyone who sold a unit after the bad news?

No one would have bought a condo there, if they'd known about the $15M assessment.

 

[bclover]

Just watched the evening news. They interviewed a resident who escaped the collapse who now says he;s suing the HO board for some thing insane like 300 million bucks.

Why??does he think he's going to get paid. just shaking my head, wondering can people really be this crass

 

[CardsFan]

Just watched the evening news. They interviewed a resident who escaped the collapse who now says he;s suing the HO board for some thing insane like 300 million bucks.

Why??does he think he's going to get paid. just shaking my head, wondering can people really be this crass

Unfortunately, the answer to the bold above is: Yes.

People are trying get to the head of the line, thinking they can get money first.

It is crass. It stinks. There are bodies buried in rubble that may never really be recovered. But "I want my money, and I want it NOW".

 

[Koolau]

Just watched the evening news. They interviewed a resident who escaped the collapse who now says he;s suing the HO board for some thing insane like 300 million bucks.

Why??does he think he's going to get paid. just shaking my head, wondering can people really be this crass

YEARS ago, I was riding on a city bus and we were waiting to enter a major artery. The car in front started out and the bus followed. The car "chickened out", slammed on his brakes and the bus (literally) tapped the car's rear bumper. As far as I could tell, this huge bus didn't even damage the car. The bus driver came around with a clip board and took everyone's name/address. I asked why. The driver said, "You'd be surprised how often folks on a sidewalk rush a bus after an incident. They want to get what ever settlement they might qualify for." Talk about crass. YMMV

 

[SAinMinn]

This is all so tragic. I truly hope it serves as a wake-up call to fix all things "infrastructure."

I've seen several interviews the past few days during which loved ones have said things like: "This is the United States. Buildings don't just fall down." Sure they do. So do bridges. See I-35W bridge collapse in Minneapolis. For sure this happens in 'Merica.

As for the lawsuits, I'm trying to get my head around the idea that condo residents are suing their own association, which by definition is composed of the neighbors with whom they "associate." It's tragic, and something "should have been done" (note use of past tense), but sometimes bad things happen and there really isn't anybody to sue. This seems like one of those situations.

Still ... just awful. I can only imagine.

 

[aja8888]

This is all so tragic. I truly hope it serves as a wake-up call to fix all things "infrastructure."

I've seen several interviews the past few days during which loved ones have said things like: "This is the United States. Buildings don't just fall down." Sure they do. So do bridges. See I-35W bridge collapse in Minneapolis. For sure this happens in 'Merica.

As for the lawsuits, I'm trying to get my head around the idea that condo residents are suing their own association, which by definition is composed of the neighbors with whom they "associate." It's tragic, and something "should have been done" (note use of past tense), but sometimes bad things happen and there really isn't anybody to sue. This seems like one of those situations.

Still ... just awful. I can only imagine.

Lots of suits will be filed...this is 'Merica...the land of attorneys and courts. Many of the suits will be in the courts for years, maybe decades, and most will result in no one but the attorneys getting paid. Don't let it bother you.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Regardless of the cause(s) of this particular collapse, sea levels are rising. According to this Yale article from last year, a 5 to 6 foot sea level rise by 2100 is likely and would render a large part of Miami uninhabitable. Ten percent of Miami wold be underwater with a 2 foot rise.

 

[travelover]

Regardless of the cause(s) of this particular collapse, sea levels are rising. According to this Yale article from last year, a 5 to 6 foot sea level rise by 2100 is likely and would render a large part of Miami uninhabitable. Ten percent of Miami wold be underwater with a 2 foot rise.

Well sure, but we'll be dead by then . Party on!

 

[JustCurious]

As for the lawsuits, I'm trying to get my head around the idea that condo residents are suing their own association, which by definition is composed of the neighbors with whom they "associate." It's tragic, and something "should have been done" (note use of past tense), but sometimes bad things happen and there really isn't anybody to sue. This seems like one of those situations.

Two words: Insurance coverage.

 

[Ronstar]

As for the lawsuits, I'm trying to get my head around the idea that condo residents are suing their own association, which by definition is composed of the neighbors with whom they "associate." It's tragic, and something "should have been done" (note use of past tense), but sometimes bad things happen and there really isn't anybody to sue. This seems like one of those situations.

I could see residents suing their own association, especially if the board didn't share the engineering report or bring up the recommended repairs for a vote.

But if the board presented the report and brought up recommended repairs for a vote and residents voted no, I don't see how residents could then win a suit.

I don't how the Miami building report was handled with the residents, and whether the residents themselves had a say in whether the repairs should be made.

 

[Sunset]

A fire in a condo building can easily spread to other units, much more easily than a fire in a single family structure. After all they are attached.

I should have been more specific, as there are many types of condos.

I lived in a highrise condo, and we were told if a fire happens, just stay in the unit as the fire will burn 1 apt, but not spread due to the building being concrete. This did happen to the building, one unit got gutted by a fire, but the rest were fine except for smoke and water damage to some near it.

Much like the earlier post about the Hawaii apt fire, the building structure was fine.

I would think, this would mean condo highrises, are typically under insured for replacement, as they cannot think of a situation where you would tear down and rebuild the building.

I can see townhouse condo's being thought of more like houses, and a fire can burn a lot at once.

 

[Nick12]

I should have been more specific, as there are many types of condos.

I lived in a highrise condo, and we were told if a fire happens, just stay in the unit as the fire will burn 1 apt, but not spread due to the building being concrete. This did happen to the building, one unit got gutted by a fire, but the rest were fine except for smoke and water damage to some near it.

Much like the earlier post about the Hawaii apt fire, the building structure was fine.

I would think, this would mean condo highrises, are typically under insured for replacement, as they cannot think of a situation where you would tear down and rebuild the building.

I can see townhouse condo's being thought of more like houses, and a fire can burn a lot at once.

There are online fire mask kits sold for under $100 per person. It is a one time use that provides the person up to 60 min to help prevent smoke inhalation. That may give one enough time to escape for their lives.

 

[Nick12]

If the residents really did know about the need for $15 million in repairs, and pushed back because they didn't want to mortgage their homes to pay for it, what liability does that represent for anyone who sold a unit after the bad news?

No one would have bought a condo there, if they'd known about the $15M assessment.

More items uncovered by CNN and fellow media. The added assessments to the condo owners to address the $15M in repairs were to start . One bedroom condo owners would have to pay an additional $80K and up to the 4 bedroom penthouses condo owners were to pay $330K to pay for the $15M. Options were to pay one time in full or monthly for the next 15 years starting July 1, 2021. I'm glad I own and live in a house.

 

[Scuba]

It was mentioned in one of the earlier referenced articles that the assessment to raise funds to remedy the cracking and spalling slabs and columns found by the 2018 engineering report ran from $80,000 to $200,000 per unit. I guess it would vary with the square footage of each unit.

No wonder there was nothing much done until now. The roof work going on before the collapse was the first part of the total repair. It's too late and too little.

Wow! Yeah, that special assessment would not have gone over well with homeowners had the Board tried to implement it. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.

 

[bclover]

I could see residents suing their own association, especially if the board didn't share the engineering report or bring up the recommended repairs for a vote.

But if the board presented the report and brought up recommended repairs for a vote and residents voted no, I don't see how residents could then win a suit.

I don't how the Miami building report was handled with the residents, and whether the residents themselves had a say in whether the repairs should be made.

voted!!

I was on the board of my small HOA, and I when I say small, I'm talking small. 20 members and we couldn't get members to attend meetings 2X a year or freaking even read the reports

since the pandemic we've done zoom meetings and out of 20 households we may get 7 people signing on and 3 of them are the board officials.

I'm willing to bet money that the majority of the residents of that condo didn't even bother with the proceedings.