the book "die with zero"

[FindingForward]

My Dad and Mom were waiting, suitcases packed, for my brother and his wife. They were all going on a trip somewhere (can't recall). This was to celebrate his retirement just weeks previous. He was 61 when he dropped dead on the living room floor that morning.

how awful. so sorry to hear this.

 

[Steeler75]

i would be interested in folk's opinions on time vs money in general and what your reactions are to the book if you read it. This is of course a complex topic when considering ltc and other considerations.

 

[MarieIG]

I'm just relaying info from the book. Those endeavors sound like wonderful ways to enjoy money in fact we've been talking about the idea of doing a vacation for the family on us. The author of the book did this when he turned 45 in fact.

Having just lost my mother after a horrific illness, and dealing with DF's cancer treatments, at age 45, we would have been no position for a vacation.

Referencing Athena53, I was spending money on the kids' tuitions, tutors, and activities - money well spent, and was able to launch them without debt hanging over their heads, so there is that. If I had to look back - and weigh that against a high-end vacation, the kiddos educations would win hands down.

It seems to me to be a matter of balance - and what is a fruitful expenditure at the time.

 

[MichaelB]

I would be interested in folk's opinions on time vs money in general and what your reactions are to the book if you read it. This is of course a complex topic when considering LTC and other considerations.

I don’t want to “die with nothing”. That would mean my final years would be full of worry about my finances and if I could even afford to a pay my way through to the end. That would be intolerable.

I also don’t want DW to have the same worries, and she is likely to outlive me.

In my limited view either we run out of money before the end or we exit the scene with money left over. There’s no middle ground. My choice is to make sure we have enough, meaning “die broke” is an option we want to avoid at all cost.

 

[MarieIG]

I don’t want to “die with nothing”. That would mean my final years would be full of worry about my finances and if I could even afford to a pay may way through to the end. That would be intolerable.

I also don’t want DW to have the same worries, and she is likely to outlive me.

In my limited view either we run out of money before the end or we exit the scene with money left over. There’s no middle ground. My choice is to make sure we have enough, meaning “die broke” is an option we want to avoid at all cost.

Very, very good points.

 

[threeonesix]

The basic idea of the book in my opinion is that as you age you tend to get less and less enjoyment from each dollar spent.

Quite the opposite for me, and for many. I get less and less enjoyment from each dollar I earn working to make someone else wealthy.

 

[jazz4cash]

Even if you did know your exact expiration date, you still couldn't die with zero unless you put all your money in annuities at some ... To each his/her own...

That’s an interesting way to look at it. By and large my entire extended family have only gov’t pensions and/or SS. Most have just the pension. One family member has maybe 80k in an IRA, another has a few hundred K from liquidated rental property. A third has a couple dozen rentals but no estate plan. We are not savers or investors so most of us will do what the book says. I just slid over to a different path. I think we’ll be OK but won’t die with zero.

 

[Sunset]

I didn’t read the book but I’m curious to understand how you can die with zero unless you know how long you will live.

Take all your money, buy annuities that pay out during your lifetime...
Spend every cent that comes in each month.

When you die, you have nothing left.

 

[target2019]

I didn’t read the book but I’m curious to understand how you can die with zero unless you know how long you will live.

Many of the comments you're reading here are by non-readers of this book.

What this author tries to explain in a metaphor, "Die With Zero" is that there is an alternative to the groupthink, run-of-the mill advice. People have their priorities mis-aligned. He describes the typical situation as saving and denying yourself, and then trying to have certain experiences in your declining years.

So, if you want to take the words literally, and Die With Zero, I don't recall that being laid out in detail, as if it could be protected with precision. I can only speak from what I've experienced with death of loved ones.

So, maybe a better title would be, "Don't Die With Too Much" or "Don't Die With More Than Enough."

Now, understand I am 70, and a few years from expiration, at best. I don't intend to go out and buy frivolus things lke expensive plug-in car. But we do now accept that sharing experiences with close family is incredible fun.

As the saying goes--YMMV.

 

[NoiseBoy]

I would be interested in folk's opinions on time vs money in general and what your reactions are to the book if you read it. This is of course a complex topic when considering LTC and other considerations.

I read Die With Zero earlier this year. I stumbled on the book because the author is a celebrity poker player and watching poker shows is one of my time-wasting habits. In true LBYM fashion, I got the book from my e-library It's a fairly short book which is good because the author is not a great writer. His premise is that too often we save money for retirement and fail to use at least some of that money to have experiences and build memories while we are young (healthy) enough to really enjoy them. Eventually we retire, but now we have only a few "good" years left to enjoy the fruits of our years of labor.

I think that there is a lot of merit to his premise, and I have started to rethink how I should use my portfolio in the early years of my retirement. The main con to his premise is that he proposes, without any real analysis, that people use LTC insurance and annuities to offset the real risk of running out of money. This is where reading a personal finance book authored by a relatively young billionaire may have limited value to retirees who are entirely, or mostly, reliant on their savings in retirement. Nonetheless, I still recommend the book because I think its premise is thought provoking and he says what he has to say in suitably brief essay.

 

[kongmen]

"Just took the whole family (kids, spouses, grandkids) on a vacation and plan on doing that every year until we can't do it anymore."


Love it!!!

 

[kongmen]

"I don’t want to “die with nothing”. That would mean my final years would be full of worry about my finances and if I could even afford to a pay my way through to the end. That would be intolerable."


Good point

 

[kongmen]

I've been LBYM for so long that I needed the information in this book. I don't think I will change the entire course of my life because of this book but I definitely needed to get a few spurs in me. I've never sold anything from my portfolio in order to consume. Money has always provided a sense of security as it should I presume. Selling portfolio assets for consumption will take some guts for me. This book just helped me head towards that journey.

 

[Kings over Queens]

I would be interested in folk's opinions on time vs money in general and what your reactions are to the book if you read it. This is of course a complex topic when considering LTC and other considerations.

Loved the book, it really shifted my thinking, and pushed me that much closer to FIRE. It confirmed my feeling to start spending money on my kids, in particular, for experiences. They will each get 3 day trips for Christmas gifts, and if they don't want to go alone, I'll pay for a friend too.

Blow that dough!

 

[Kings over Queens]

Keep in mind, the premise doesn't apply to just money.

Die with nothing in your experiences bucket too, meaning, do those things you want, while you can, such as travel. It's a broader concept than just money.

 

[kongmen]

Keep in mind, the premise doesn't apply to just money.

Die with nothing in your experiences bucket too, meaning, do those things you want, while you can, such as travel. It's a broader concept than just money.

Great observation

 

[dknighd]

I think the "die with zero" concept is fundamentally flawed.
Unless you know when you are going to die. And how much that might cost.

 

[CRLLS]

I think the "die with zero" concept is fundamentally flawed.
Unless you know when you are going to die. And how much that might cost.

This reminds me of one of my favorites from Steven Wright, "I told her I knew when I was going to die because my birth certificate had an expiration date on it.”

Agreed. Die with Zero is flawed. One of my fears is to outlive my money and become a word of the state. Not a good way to live out my final years.

 

[Kings over Queens]

I think the "die with zero" concept is fundamentally flawed.
Unless you know when you are going to die. And how much that might cost.

Does "live like today is your last day" resonate better?

If you haven't read the book, you should. It's much more than the title indicates.

Truth told, I think it should be read by late teen-early 20's generation.

Case in point, the author describes a situation where he didn't take a trip to travel Europe with his friend when they were young. His friend went, and he stayed to work and make money, and advance his career. By the time he was financially able to take the trip, he was too old to enjoy the challenges and difficulties traveling by backpack and staying in youth hostiles. A decision he regrets.

You can always make more money, you can't live today over.

The book is so much more than "money."

 

[ER Eddie]

I read the book. It made some good points about buying experiences rather than stuff, and made some commonplace observations about mortality.

It got me thinking about the subject, so that was good. I had a few problems with the book, though:

1. It seemed to be written by a very extroverted person, for whom buying "experiences" translated to purchasing external activities -- adventurous travel being the main example. I'm a big introvert, so most of my "adventures" happen on the inside. I couldn't relate to his desire to pack his life with lots of external activities. I felt bored and fatigued just thinking about it.

2. I don't think this life is all there is, so I don't share what I perceive is a fear-driven desire to cram everything possible into this life before our "time is up." Tick tock! That's just not my belief system. I'm much more relaxed about it. I am aware that this is just my personal belief system, though, and many others believe differently. That's fine.

3. When I try to push myself to spend more money -- whether on external experiences or stuff -- I don't get very far. I can increase spending a bit more, but I can't get myself to spend a whole lot. I think, in part, that is because it doesn't much to make me feel content. Sure, I could push myself to spend more, but why? Unless that purchase is going to really enhance my life, why spend the money?

4. I don't feel any need to spend down all my money. If I die with plenty of money in the bank, that is fine with me. It will go to good people and good charities.

 

[FIRE-Traveler]

Having said that, many on this forum, especially the ones' that have a hard time spending money, could probably benefit from reading it.

I wish my parents and I would have had this book ages ago. Nothing in it is "OMG, revolutionary!" but it puts stuff together that I need to read (and keep reading). I'm definitely one that has a hard time spending $$$ and needed this book.

I finished this book recently and can't stop thinking about it....

I would be interested in folk's opinions on time vs money in general and what your reactions are to the book if you read it. This is of course a complex topic when considering LTC and other considerations.

Same! I've been a huge fan of the book for a while!

I recently had lunch with a friend that is 55 years old and has had a really good successful life. He makes hundreds about $400k a year in mostly passive income, and lives extremely frugally. During lunch he mentioned his goal is to hit 10 million dollars in assets by the time he is 60.

Based on just simple back of the envelope math, he is definitely not going to die with zero!

He doesn't have a spouse, he doesn't have any children or other dependents, and lives incredibly frugally.

I gently brought up the idea of dying with zero, and clearly didn't resonate with him. Even if he quadrupled his expenses and his income trout to zero, I'm still thinking he's going to die with a ton of money.

Unfortunately, I've seen many examples in his life where is frugality applications with relationships (both friends and romantic)... And it doesn't seem like that's going to change anytime soon.

Hopefully a combination of reading this book multiple times, reading threads like this, and continual experiences with other people like my friend above, will help me get past some of my own issues with being overly frugal.

 

[Done]

the book "die with zero"

I enjoyed the book and have already put the knowledge into practice by gifting to family. The author makes the point that some people can make much better use of a gift now rather than at my death.

The audiobook, read by the author, is also on YouTube.

 

[TheWizard]

Even if you did know your exact expiration date, you still couldn't die with zero unless you put all your money in annuities at some point....

That won't necessarily work either.
All those annuities might give you $20,000 a month income, of which you spend maybe $5000 or so, leaving the remainder piling up in a taxable account of some sort...

 

[TheWizard]

Take all your money, buy annuities that pay out during your lifetime...
Spend every cent that comes in each month.

When you die, you have nothing left.

Or possibly you'll have one of those hoarding nightmare houses stuffed to the ceiling with unopened packages from Amazon and other places where you spent god knows how much money on stuff you didn't need...

 

[ColdFeet]

Interesting. I'm the one who wrote the post about moving abroad now at 50 for about 10 yrs and then determining the rest of the life's course which may even be moving back and working.. as much as we want. Don't mind working. But feels waiting until old age to adventure is a trap.

Our problem is we are both self employed so when we go.. we lose any easy reentery.

But this is also why .. unlike many.. do see the value of life annuities. I'm a real estate investor so if I project out 10 yrs the income return on the annuities I've jumped on (fixed not indexed) I can receive as good or sometimes better return than a rental. Also completely passive. Heirs get screwed for that bit but its just a nibble.

So for about 25-30% (eventually) of my worth I'm plugging into this so that I can have a portion I can spend it all. And.. it would cover minimal expenses if tragedy struck. But also diversified in real estate and stocks.

It allows me to take greater risks with my investments.. work less with rentals...and have a portion I do indeed spend all of it and then touch the others less.

Anyway.. this is my strategy for dying with Zero... but Zero means about a Million or so in assets I hope the ones generating income most likely won't be touched.. for the heirs. Also an inflation hedge.

I've learned this through my job speaking with all walks of life. A pension is the great foundation of mental relaxation. It can't be all.. not even close.. but prior generations have really enjoyed their purpose. And most under 55 don't have one. So I bought one.