The Great Global Warming Swindle

[ERD50]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

RE: iron fertilization

Seems like trying to fix one science experiment (the huge increase in burning fossil fuels over the last 150 years) with another (a huge experiment on changing the biochemistry of the oceans).

MB

Yes, it is. But unless we can develop a time machine and undo what was done for the past 150 years, it may be the kind of solution we need.

-ERD50

 

[mb]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I don't think that there is much doubt that the earth is experiencing a warming trend. I think that there is still uncertainty how much is caused by man but not having studied the original research I have to accept that the majority of climate scientists think that man's contribution is significant and that we should be doing something about it.

I think that the single most significant thing that can be done world-wide is a European-type tax on gasoline in the US. I would strongly support such a tax.

350 million Europeans are living comfortable lives without the right to "cheap gasoline." There is no reason why 300 million americans can't adjust their life styles similiarly.

MB

 

[Texas Proud]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

350 million Europeans are living comfortable lives without the right to "cheap gasoline." There is no reason why 300 million americans can't adjust their life styles similiarly.

MB

Except they have a MUCH better public transportation system than we do.. and are not as spread out as we are... very high density living..

 

[JohnEyles]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Well when you have nothing intelligent to say or to add you can start with the name calling.

Good point, but name-calling is also good when those listening aren't capable of hearing the
intelligent things said, to wit ...

... the majority of climate scientists think that man's contribution is significant and that we should be doing something about it.

Exactly. If you don't think Al Gore is sincere, fine. But listen to what the scientists
say. They are smarter than normal people, seriously, at least when they're talking
about the physical world.

 

[mb]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Except they have a MUCH better public transportation system than we do.. and are not as spread out as we are... very high density living..

I would argue that we have crappy public transportation and a low housing density BECAUSE gasoline prices have always been cheap.

Put a $3/gal tax on it and watch how things adjust to a new equilibrium. My suggestion would be to phase it in over say a five year period. I'm not saying that I will not be painfull but I think that the long term positives will out weigh the short term negatives.

MB

 

[ERD50]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I would argue that we have crappy public transportation and a low housing density BECAUSE gasoline prices have always been cheap.

Put a $3/gal tax on it and watch how things adjust to a new equilibrium. My suggestion would be to phase it in over say a five year period. ....
MB

I agree, I'd suggest a slightly different approach. Set $3 as the *minimum* price for a gallon of gas, add taxes if it were to drop below this. Increase that price floor in phases as you suggest.

This would help to get people thinking long term and making good decisions as time goes on. Now, gas goes up , everyone screams and says they are going to sell their SUVs, etc - and then 6 months later gas prices drop and they all forget about it. Keep a floor on prices, and the next time someone buys a car, they will think about the long term prices of gas. When they move, or change jobs, the commute distance might be a bigger factor. etc, etc

Communities might even see the benefit of investing in good public transportation.

Hah! as if a politician would try to push a gas tax like that! What a dream!

-ERD50

 

[mb]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Hah! as if a politician would try to push a gas tax like that! What a dream!

-ERD50

You are correct on this however I have been surprised at the number of people that I have talked to that think that a gas tax would be a good idea.

 

[Running_Man]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I see, its all a vast left wing conspiracy. Nothing to see here. Nothing to worry about. Just a bunch of eggheads with political aspirations unnecessarily waving their arms around while...hmm...only people with good reason to not want this made into an issue say that its not an issue.

mmm in the '70's one of the suggestions to offset the imminent "global cooling" that was coming was to pour black dirt over the polar ice cap in an attempt to absorb more of the sun's rays and help warm the earth. Fortunate that was not implemented I suppose.

I remember this summer it was a guarantee that we would have very bad hurricane season because global warming was causing a measurable increase in the sea temperatures providing fuel for hurricanes. The destruction of '05 was going to be just a prelude to the horrors of '06. Instead there were fewest hurricanes in history. Had we implemented a car ban or a ban on incandescent light bulbs worldwide , that would have been credited with success. December was warm and attributed to global warming. That was followed by one of the coldest February months in history - which of course is proof of nothing. The hubris that mankind can control the weather on earth is comical to me.

When the politicians implementing the ban are willing to move to 1500 square foot homes in an effort to lessen their use of fossil fuels and use the internet for long range presentations and ride bicycles to award shows instead of jets to pick up speaking engagements and awards for their "humanitarian" efforts then I will give more credence to the issue. In the meantime yes it is a grab for political power.

 

[lets-retire]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I read recently that there are trees startign to grow in areas that were tundra. The article was of course all gloom and doom. It seemed to me that was a good thing. More trees mean more carbon dioxide is converted and a slowing of the CO2 increase.

 

[Zathras]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

mmm in the '70's one of the suggestions to offset the imminent "global cooling" that was coming was to pour black dirt over the polar ice cap in an attempt to absorb more of the sun's rays and help warm the earth.

This was not suggested by any scientific paper or community, although it may have been by your poker friends. That doesn't disprove what we are currently seeing.

I remember this summer it was a guarantee that we would have very bad hurricane season because global warming was causing a measurable increase in the sea temperatures providing fuel for hurricanes.

Unfortunately you have a very poor memory as no such guarantee was offered. Yes, there were predictions made, however they were never guaranteed. Also unfortunately, while the USA had very few hurricanes, the pacific had quite a few, some extreme. As mentioned in last years prediction, if an El Nino formed (which it did) the numbers would be less than the prediction. There was the addition of large dust clouds from Africa which also appears to have cut down on the number of hurricanes.

Had we implemented a car ban or a ban on incandescent light bulbs worldwide , that would have been credited with success.

No, the dust storms and El Nino which WERE credited with the decrease would have been credited.

December was warm and attributed to global warming. That was followed by one of the coldest February months in history - which of course is proof of nothing. The hubris that mankind can control the weather on earth is comical to me.

I saw a dozen reports where the media attempted this. In every report in which they asked a climatologist or even their own meteroligist the response was that the warm temperature could not be blamed on global warming as it is a short term irregularity. Many mentioned it could be part of a larger trend, but not as a sole cause.

When the politicians implementing the ban are willing to move to 1500 square foot homes in an effort to lessen their use of fossil fuels and use the internet for long range presentations and ride bicycles to award shows instead of jets to pick up speaking engagements and awards for their "humanitarian" efforts then I will give more credence to the issue. In the meantime yes it is a grab for political power.

Why? None of the above is necessary. There is no need to cut into your 'quality' of life one bit. Use CFBs instead of incandescents. Stop giving subsidies and tax breaks to oil companies and invest that money in renewable resources. Take some of that money and invest it in creating an automobile engine that gets more than 25% efficiency.

I understand, and agree that there are some people/politicians that use this topic as a launching point. Some are sincere while some are not. But just because some people are insincere doesn't mean the crisis isn't real. There are thousands of scientists across the world that agree that this is a critical issue.

 

[Zathras]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

I read recently that there are trees startign to grow in areas that were tundra. The article was of course all gloom and doom. It seemed to me that was a good thing. More trees mean more carbon dioxide is converted and a slowing of the CO2 increase.

This locally is good news for the reasons you mentioned
However, when you take into account that the deserts are also growing...

The next report from the IPCC addresses this topic. By their research and estimates, the capacity of the globe to produce food will actually increase during the next 73 years. Around 2080 (if nothing changes regarding our CO2 production) this will reverse as arid areas continue to grow faster than the spread of farmable land.

 

[grumpy]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

re: "global cooling" - This was not suggested by any scientific paper or community, although it may have been by your poker friends. That doesn't disprove what we are currently seeing.

Zathras,

Actually it was. I am not a scientist but during the 70's I worked for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). After a particularly cold and harsh winter on the East coast some or our scientists were called to testify at congressional hearings into the possibility that a new ice age was imminent.

Grumpy

 

[ERD50]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Zathras,

Actually it was. I am not a scientist but during the 70's I worked for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). After a particularly cold and harsh winter on the East coast some or our scientists were called to testify at congressional hearings into the possibility that a new ice age was imminent.

Grumpy

And, if my knowledge of this is correct, the cooling was being caused by particulate matter and man-made emissions. The pollution controls put in place in the 60's and later reversed that trend.

If all that is accurate, then it indicates that man can and does affect global climate, and can take actions to reverse it.

The CO2 issue may be different. -ERD50

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Grasshopper, what is the sound of one moron posting ?

You're going to have to be way more specific than that.

 

[USK Coastie]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Just realize that there are big $$$ to be made from government and private reasearch grants to "PROVE" that man is causing GW. Not a whole lot of $$ available for proving the oppisite. Remember man made GW is ONLY a theroy At this point it can not be conclusively proven that GW is linked to anything mankind is doing on the planet. Concensious is not proof. Remember that the scientific concensious in 1492 was that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Anybody who buys the "We're all gonna die " mentality of this issue is not informed on it. The more research that one does, the more that man is the cause of GW looks like a power grab by the "we know what is best for you crowd."

No one has ever proved the theroy of electricity. They may design and build machines that work on the electrical theroy but no one can state with aboslute proof that electricity actually works the way it is theriozed to work.

 

[eridanus]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Remember man made GW is ONLY a theroy

Gravity is also only a theory.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2032575,00.html

-------------------
The problem with The Great Global Warming Swindle, which caused a sensation when it was broadcast on Channel 4 last week, is that to make its case it relies not on future visionaries, but on people whose findings have already been proved wrong.
<snip>

The film's main contention is that the current increase in global temperatures is caused not by rising greenhouse gases, but by changes in the activity of the sun. It is built around the discovery in 1991 by the Danish atmospheric physicist Dr Eigil Friis-Christensen that recent temperature variations on Earth are in "strikingly good agreement" with the length of the cycle of sunspots.

Unfortunately, he found nothing of the kind. A paper published in the journal Eos in 2004 reveals that the "agreement" was the result of "incorrect handling of the physical data".
-----------------

 

[Zathras]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Zathras,

Actually it was. I am not a scientist but during the 70's I worked for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). After a particularly cold and harsh winter on the East coast some or our scientists were called to testify at congressional hearings into the possibility that a new ice age was imminent.

Grumpy

Grumpy, thanks for the input, great to hear from someone that was there.
So are you saying that you know people that went to congress to testify that a new ice age was imminent, or did they testify that that a cooling trend is currently being experienced but such was not an imminent indicator of an ice age?

Did they publish their research? I have looked, and searched and have found zero scientific papers that indicated an immediately impending ice age (sure, one will happen eventually, but not today).

 

[MasterBlaster]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Check out the Wikipedia article on global cooling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

There are some links in there to other technical articles and websites

 

[laurence]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Remember that the scientific concensious in 1492 was that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Actually, educated people at the time believed the earth was round, but it was still a popular myth among the undeducated masses.

I noticed among the shrill cries of global conspiracy of mad scientists to take over the world and the claims that humans can't effect the environment no one has mentioned the hole in the ozone. CFC's were damaging the ozone, and the hole was growing larger year by year. Once they were banned in most countries, the ozone layer has actually begun to recover.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Come on Laurence, there never was any hole in the ozone layer. Some goofballs just made it up to get on television, then they got CFC's banned, now they're claiming that the hole that wasnt ever there is getting smaller. Just so they can get on television again!

 

[Running_Man]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Actually, educated people at the time believed the earth was round, but it was still a popular myth among the undeducated masses.

I noticed among the shrill cries of global conspiracy of mad scientists to take over the world and the claims that humans can't effect the environment no one has mentioned the hole in the ozone. CFC's were damaging the ozone, and the hole was growing larger year by year. Once they were banned in most countries, the ozone layer has actually begun to recover.

Not according to the World meteoroligical Organization: We may need to ban something else:

3 October2006 World Meteorological Organization This year’s hole in the Antarctic ozone layer was the most serious on record exceeding that of 2000. Not only was it the largest in surface area (matching 2000) but also suffered the most mass deficit, meaning that there was less ozone over the Antarctic than ever previously measured.

Measurements were taken from instruments on both NASA and European Space Agency (ESA) satellites. These are validated by surface based observations of the WMO Global Atmosphere Watch (GAW) ozone network. Each agency uses different instruments hence the slightly different values.

NASA instruments showed that, on 25 September 2006, the area of the hole reached 29.5 million km2, compared to 29.4 million km2 reached in September 2000.

 

[eridanus]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Laurence is correct. The ozone layer has begun to recover. Ozone destruction will continue until the CFCs are no longer in the atmosphere. The EPA states that the repair time will take 50 years.


Are there actually people out there that don't believe in CFCs affecting the ozone layer?

 

[Running_Man]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Laurence is correct. The ozone layer has begun to recover. Ozone destruction will continue until the CFCs are no longer in the atmosphere. The EPA states that the repair time will take 50 years.


Are there actually people out there that don't believe in CFCs affecting the ozone layer?

Well it appears NASA is in disagreement with you on the ozone layer beginnning to recover per their measurements. Since CFC's have been banned what would be the explanation for that? I think in general a trend is seen and then any causal relationship that can be blamed on human interference is given causation, even if there is not enough evidence that it is the causation. Therefore my question, if CFC's have been banned and NASA and the World Meteorology Organization believe it is getting worse, why would that be?

 

[eridanus]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

Well it appears NASA is in disagreement with you on the ozone layer beginnning to recover per their measurements. Since CFC's have been banned what would be the explanation for that? I think in general a trend is seen and then any causal relationship that can be blamed on human interference is given causation, even if there is not enough evidence that it is the causation. Therefore my question, if CFC's have been banned and NASA and the World Meteorology Organization believe it is getting worse, why would that be?

Have 50 years passed already?

The WMA doesn't disagree with the banning of CFCs and their effect on the ozone layer.


Edit: Also, it's a phased ban. The US can produce HCFC until 2010.

 

[eridanus]

Re: The Great Global Warming Swindle

This is a pretty interesting article on the skeptics of the ozone hole discovery.

http://www.wunderground.com/education/ozone_skeptics.asp

----------------
With the advantage of hindsight, it is revealing to review the techniques the skeptics used to mislead and distort the truth in the debate on the CFC-ozone depletion issue.

*Launch a public relations campaign disputing the evidence.
DuPont, which made 1/4 of the world's CFCs, spent millions of dollars running full-page newspaper advertisements defending CFCs in 1975

*Find and pay a respected scientist to argue persuasively against the threat.
CFC industry companies hired the world's largest public relations firm, Hill & Knowlton, who organized a month-long U.S. speaking tour in 1975 for noted British scientist Richard Scorer,

* Use non-peer reviewed scientific publications or industry-funded scientists who don't publish original peer-reviewed scientific work to support your point of view.

* Trumpet discredited scientific studies and myths supporting your point of view as scientific fact.

* Point to the substantial scientific uncertainty, and the certainty of economic loss if immediate action is taken.

etc.