The worst runway design ever

Just something I heard once concerning a USAF jet crash:

If the jet is hydroplaning (very wet runway without grooves) the jet (computer) thinks it's in air mode instead of ground mode; and tries to go down instead of up.

I probably messed that up, I heard it years ago.
 
Texas Proud: There are things that are allowed to go unfixed for a time and those that aren't. (I saw a plane go out without a fairing to cover some of the flap workings.) I don't know which list thrust reversers are on, but even if they were allowed to fly with one inactive the pilot would surely be notified about it.

Rustic23: The 717 was the jet pictured in my ATL photo. The jet that crashed was an Airbus A320 with the engine pods under the wings. I was thinking the engine pods might fall off *if* one reverser were deployed and one wasn't and both engines were spooled up causing severe yaw forces...I figure either the plane would lurch off the runway to the side or the pods would torque off. Actually I think the pilot would back off the throttle as soon as he felt the plane trying to yaw.

However the linked article describes the jet accelerating down the runway after landing. The only ways I see that happening are that the pilot wanted to or the computer screwed something up. As with you I can't imagine why the pilot would want to take off again.

The only other thing would be if maybe one of the reverses was disabled and the pilot spooled up the wrong engine, but again I think the pilot would notice he's accelerating instead of decelerating. Or maybe this is the pilot error and he increased thrust instead of realizing his mistake. Actually that one sounds plausible.
 
I don't know which list thrust reversers are on, but even if they were allowed to fly with one inactive the pilot would surely be notified about it.


I have a buddy that used to fix planes at Travis. Some times the fixes were a little creative. He used to put duct tape on a lot of stuff to cover holes and missing hatches. It got sucked off the minute the plane took off, but then it was someone elses problem.

Pretty sure he didnt tell any of the pilots what he did ;)
 
Just to add to the speculative frenzy:
-- If one thrust reverser were inop, it's easy to see how things could go wrong in a hurry. We're all creatures of habit, and many accidents that are attributed to pilot error involve either the inappropriate application of previously learned habits or some break/interruption in a previously established habit pattern that results in inappropriate decisions/actions.

After touchdown and normal landing, the pilot would have both engines near idle, then select thrust reversers on both and increase power on both (to reduce speed thereby decrease wing lift and get more weight on the wheels thereby increasing the effectiveness of the brakes.) With one inop reverser, if he went through the same motions the plane would yaw a lot and it would not slow down--it would speed up and the wheel brakes would be largely ineffective, especially on the wet runway. The first thing he'd likely suspect is a problem with the antiskid system, which is not at all what the problem was. But, with flaps at full, possibly spoilers deployed and only getting partial thrust for an undetermined reason, figuring everything out, getting the airplane properly configured, and getting off the ground in the remaining runway would be dicey (particularly given the tall buildings nearby).

But, in a few months we'll know exactly what happened. I would be surprised if the final findings don't pin a large amount of the blame on an insufficient appraisal and briefing prior to final approach concerning what-ifs given the situation at the airfield and with their airplane.

Very sad for all concerned.

Aviation is really simple--until it isn't.
 
I am not a 'large aircraft' kind of guy. I flew fighters, so maybe ReWahoo would be better to comment here. Normally lowering flaps would not be used to reduce stopping distance. Lowering flaps prior to landing slows the landing speed and that has an effect, but once on the ground, lowering flaps would increase lift which would tend to reduce brake effectiveness and therefore lengthen the landing role. There would be a trade off with drag but that decreases as speed decreases.

Rustic23 is correct. Flaps are not lowered after landing to reduce stopping distance, at least not on any large aircraft that I'm familiar with. Lowering them further (they are at least partially lowered as part of the landing process) upon landing would have exactly the effect Rustic23 mentions - increase lift and make the wheel brakes less effective.
 
Okay, perhaps flaps aren't lowered further after landing, by they sure are sticking down quite a ways before landing.


And then there are the spoilers which I errantly referred to earlier as "air brakes". They reduce lift in addition to increasing drag.
 
Okay, perhaps flaps aren't lowered further after landing, by they sure are sticking down quite a ways before landing.

All else being equal, on a short, wet runway such as this one you would expect to use all the flaps you had (lower them fully) to achieve the slowest possible approach speed.
 
DFW has fuel stores just offline from the runways near northeast air freight. (Two white circles upper center of the view. You can tell the active runways from the skid marks near the end.) Delta 191 hit them in 1985. They were dented for years...might still be if you look closely (in person, not in the Google photo) on the West side. On this article about Delta 191 the "Investigation & Clean Up" link in the box to the right has photos of the wreckage and the damaged fuel drums.




I don't have to. I got stranded at ATL a couple of Thanksgivings ago and got stuck with a motel that--as best I could tell by the sound--was only inches from the wheels of the landing jets. I'm pretty sure maker D on the map was my motel.

Just to clarify, those are water storage tanks...
 

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