Trustee of trust - unknown particulars!

[ivinsfan]

I was sympathetic until Travelfreek mentioned that not only did she want to stay in the house, she was not giving them access to his mail, which is definitely not legal or ethical. Besides, the siblings are mourning, too, plus they have the responsibility of dealing with the estate, and the GF doesn't seem to care about that, on top of which she's basically demanding money from the siblings by insisting on staying there. Also, the trustees could technically get in legal trouble for not doing what is in the best fiscal interest of the estate, although I believe only a beneficiary (which are the three siblings) would have standing to sue.

That said, I'd be inclined to let her stay for a set amount of time as long as there was a contract, maybe to pay the mortgage if there is one, and to give her right of first refusal on the house if she wanted it.

What he said was she didn't want them over and wasn't being co-operative about the mail. Were they stopping by every day on the pretext of wanting the mail and also throwing in a little pressure to move. We don't know do we? They just said the GF asked for a few months to get herself together and make new living arrangements. She didn't refuse to leave ...

Once again, let me ask if your SO died after an 18 months ordeal, how do you think you'd feel at the 3 week mark? Ready to face the future. pulling out the real estate market listing to look for a house to buy or somewhere to move?

Or would you just be putting one foot in front of the other trying to make through the day showered and with your teeth and hair brushed. Have people knocking on the door asking for the mail but really "checking" on you to see if you could give them a vacate by date

 

[RunningBum]

Well yes, that's the way our threads work, we take the poster's word. I'm pointing out it's been literally 3 weeks and he's already annoyed and taking potshots at her. They asked her to get out and she asked for some time to organize herself. Do we know if the woman has to get out and look for a new place to live? That's a big undertaking even when you are not grieving. As for the mail how do we know what was worked out. File a change of address they need to do that anyway.

The OP hasn't given her an agreement to sign, so she can't sign anything.

You're making up things now.

Please point to the post where OP asked the GF to move out. All I saw is that she asked to stay awhile, and OP told siblings to hold off on making any promises.

Nobody said the GF refused to sign an agreement. It was suggested to the OP that they pursue this, if they are going to allow her to stay. At a minimum OP should ask a lawyer.

For all we know, GF moved in not so much to support the brother in his final two months, but to lay a claim to his stuff. OP has not suggested this, so I assume this isn't true, but it wouldn't be the first time a friend has made a money grab on a dying person's estate.

One can grieve without doing things like withholding mail and presumably other access to the brother's stuff.

 

[ivinsfan]

You're making up things now.

Please point to the post where OP asked the GF to move out. All I saw is that she asked to stay awhile, and OP told siblings to hold off on making any promises.

Nobody said the GF refused to sign an agreement. It was suggested to the OP that they pursue this, if they are going to allow her to stay. At a minimum OP should ask a lawyer.

For all we know, GF moved in not so much to support the brother in his final two months, but to lay a claim to his stuff. OP has not suggested this, so I assume this isn't true, but it wouldn't be the first time a friend has made a money grab on a dying person's estate.

One can grieve without doing things like withholding mail and presumably other access to the brother's stuff.

The subject of when she should leave has come up. They aren't agreeing to her request to stay which to me anyway would feel like pressure to leave. I too suggested a nicely worded letter from an attorney giving her 60 --90 of whatever time the heirs choose to vacate. Signed paperwork from a neutral party goes a long way to reducing friction.

Once again paperwork, file a change of address and you can get the mail. It's going to need to be done anyway.

They all enough going on right now, butting heads doesn't help any of them. the OP calling her a royal pain isn't very kind. One thing I do know is if feelings are raw on all sides, the less personal they make it the easier it will be resolved and the easier it will be for everyone to move on.

 

[bmcgonig]

The subject of when she should leave has come up. They aren't agreeing to her request to stay which to me anyway would feel like pressure to leave. I too suggested a nicely worded letter from an attorney giving her 60 --90 of whatever time the heirs choose to vacate. Signed paperwork from a neutral party goes a long way to reducing friction.

Once again paperwork, file a change of address and you can get the mail. It's going to need to be done anyway.

They all enough going on right now, butting heads doesn't help any of them. the OP calling her a royal pain isn't very kind. One thing I do know is if feelings are raw on all sides, the less personal they make it the easier it will be resolved and the easier it will be for everyone to move on.

You can be a "grieving widow" deserving sympathy, but if not cooperating in things like mail, you might deserve to lose any deference that might normally accompany that sympathy.

 

[ivinsfan]

You can be a "grieving widow" deserving sympathy, but if not cooperating in things like mail, you might deserve to lose any deference that might normally accompany that sympathy.

That's harsh IMO...wounds are very fresh yet..I can't figure out why that's the hill posters here want to die on. file a change of address at the PO...

it sounds like they need to come to where she lives to collect the mail personally and she is struggling with having to see them..for whatever reason.

 

[RunningBum]

It's not her house. The family, or at least the executors have the right to see the deceased's assets, what condition the house is in for selling, etc, don't they? Hopefully it's requested in a courteous and respectful way. It sounds like the mail thing is just the tip of the iceberg.

It sounds to me like the woman is taking advantage of a situation. Why would someone of means give up their place and move into what is clearly a short-term arrangement with no plan for after the man died? It's not like she lived there 10 years and has her belongings and memories there. It's also not a case where he died suddenly and left her without a plan. The more I think of this situation, the more it stinks.

 

[Scratchy]

My condolences on your loss.

Has your sister hired an attorney to represent her as successor trustee and executor of your brother's estate? I know you said your brother had an attorney who drafted the trust. The attorney your sister hires may or may not be that person. If I were her, I would call a few attorneys to find out what reasonable fees are in that locale. The attorney your brother had may or may not be the best choice for your sister and it certainly would not hurt if the attorney knows your sister is considering other attorneys.

I have been through this three times and based on my experience, I would say it is essential that your sister hire an attorney, especially since the girlfriend is in the picture. There are many ways a successor trustee can make errors in administrating the trust and serving as executor.

I am sorry to be cynical, but based on my very similar experience, the situation with the girlfriend is liable to go downhill from where it is now. Yes, the girlfriend has had a loss and deserves compassion and respect. So your sister needs to decide how she as trustee and executor would like to accommodate the girlfriend's requests and then, with the attorney's advice, set forth in writing what she has decided. I don't think it would be harsh to have the attorney communicate with the girlfriend directly and this is what I would strongly recommend, as the attorney will be far better able to handle this. Your sister is not a professional in this area and she can simply tell the girlfriend she is relying on the attorney in this matter and following the attorney's advice.

Best wishes.

 

[Badger]

it sounds like they need to come to where she lives to collect the mail personally and she is struggling with having to see them..for whatever reason.

Could they not go to the post office and have his mail delivered to another address?


Since she is financially secure with her own business and just recently moved in then she should be capable of getting another place to live just like she had before. It may even be better for her to have some closure without having to rattle around in a house with memories however brief they are.



Cheers!

 

[Vacation4us]

An unfortunate situation. DH and I each own a home. We currently live in mine. Each of us plans to leave our homes to our respective children not each other. Our estate plan allows the other party to stay for 2 years covering all expenses.

Grief is real and 21 days is short and harsh to be discussing a move. Clearly neither the OP's brother or the GF thought of the issues related to GF move in, very sad for her.

 

[gwraigty]

I agree with you all to not disclose anything of the financial nature to his gf. They were close but she has a lot of money and owns a thriving business and only lives part time in our area.

The gf has asked to stay awhile in the house. I advised my other 2 sibs to not commit to anything until 1) we see what's in his bank account and what his mortgage payment still is and 2) see if his IRAs are available to us as well.

The trust (house, bank acct, car, pourover will) was left to the 3 of us. Nothing left to gf. They dated for nearly 2 years exclusively, lived
together part time for 2-3 mos.

His gf has been a royal pain. Claims extreme grief and wants to stay in home for several months.

She doesn’t want us over and is nit being cooperative even about giving us his mail.

I'm taking the OP's word on this. If the GF wants something she is not legally entitled to, she should be cooperative. Letting her have her way, squatting in the house indefinitely with no agreement in place is just going to lead to more problems down the line. If she wants to stay there, she should be signing an agreement, and not withholding mail that does not belong to her. If she was entitled to something, the brother should have made provisions. He didn't.

+1

file a change of address at the PO...

it sounds like they need to come to where she lives to collect the mail personally and she is struggling with having to see them..for whatever reason.

I agree with filing a change of address ASAP. That won't help with the mail that's already been delivered, but it's a start. It's not clear to me if GF is being expected to deliver the mail herself, or if OP/heirs are coming to the house and being refused entry/mail. GF has no right to refuse the latter.

From the above - lot of money, thriving business, only lives part time in our area - it doesn't sound as if she's at risk of being homeless. Where was she living the other part of the time? Also, personal contents in the house not belonging to GF rightfully belong to OP/heirs. They need access to inventory and take possession of those things.

If the home still has a mortgage, doesn't it need to be readied for sale ASAP?

 

[ivinsfan]

+1



I agree with filing a change of address ASAP. That won't help with the mail that's already been delivered, but it's a start. It's not clear to me if GF is being expected to deliver the mail herself, or if OP/heirs are coming to the house and being refused entry/mail. GF has no right to refuse the latter.

From the above - lot of money, thriving business, only lives part time in our area - it doesn't sound as if she's at risk of being homeless. Where was she living the other part of the time? Also, personal contents in the house not belonging to GF rightfully belong to OP/heirs. They need access to inventory and take possession of those things.

If the home still has a mortgage, doesn't it need to be readied for sale ASAP?

That's why it's important to just have the lawyer write a letter ASAP...it will take time for the paperwork and the house transfer and then the trustee can decide should the house be sold or used as a rental and then hopefully the other sibs will agree...they might as well use the waiting time to clarify when the GF will vacate the home. The mortgage has to be paid if the house has someone in it or not. The lights and cable, etc. are being used by the GF but 60-90 of those bills doesn't seem unreasonable.

It sounds as if the GF does have a full life and some life skills just give her a chance to collect herself and move on.

 

[Travelfreek]

So the change of address goes in tomorrow. The gf met with our DB’s trust atty and gave him the mail. My sis is not going to pay the atty $200 an hour to collect mail.

The gf was upset that my sis was allowing 3 mos before she had to move. It’s as if the house has been shrinkwrapped since he passed and she doesn’t want anyone to visit the home. We found out she was out of town 4 days for work and didn’t tell us. My sis needed bills and documents to continue his payments. Instead of calmly looking for things, my sis and I had to hustle for an hour or so to grab and go looking for birth cert, bills etc while gf wasn’t home!

We decided to officially give her 3 mos after DB’s death. Then we want access to house and want her out . We have not had any opportunity to grieve ourselves at his home without her.

His mortgage is $2k a month. We have not been charging her any money recognizing that she cared for him.

More later.

 

[ivinsfan]

So the change of address goes in tomorrow. The gf met with our DB’s trust atty and gave him the mail. My sis is not going to pay the atty $200 an hour to collect mail.

The gf was upset that my sis was allowing 3 mos before she had to move. It’s as if the house has been shrinkwrapped since he passed and she doesn’t want anyone to visit the home. We found out she was out of town 4 days for work and didn’t tell us. My sis needed bills and documents to continue his payments. Instead of calmly looking for things, my sis and I had to hustle for an hour or so to grab and go looking for birth cert, bills etc while gf wasn’t home!

We decided to officially give her 3 mos after DB’s death. Then we want access to house and want her out . We have not had any opportunity to grieve ourselves at his home without her.

His mortgage is $2k a month. We have not been charging her any money recognizing that she cared for him.

More later.

How much time did the GF actually want? it is .probably not really about the house,perhaps she's feeling sad and lonely that DB didn't make an effort to acknowledge her. Sounds like the relationship between the four of you won't ever be civil..just use your lawyer and leave it at that.

It's been barely 3 weeks since the family member died, this is pretty much nuclear escalation in that time frame. It can take a week to bury someone. I'm thinking there is some history there but doesn't matter follow the law, have the attorney take care of it and mourn not much else you can do.

 

[Scratchy]

So the change of address goes in tomorrow. The gf met with our DB’s trust atty and gave him the mail. My sis is not going to pay the atty $200 an hour to collect mail.

The gf was upset that my sis was allowing 3 mos before she had to move. It’s as if the house has been shrinkwrapped since he passed and she doesn’t want anyone to visit the home. We found out she was out of town 4 days for work and didn’t tell us. My sis needed bills and documents to continue his payments. Instead of calmly looking for things, my sis and I had to hustle for an hour or so to grab and go looking for birth cert, bills etc while gf wasn’t home!

We decided to officially give her 3 mos after DB’s death. Then we want access to house and want her out . We have not had any opportunity to grieve ourselves at his home without her.

His mortgage is $2k a month. We have not been charging her any money recognizing that she cared for him.

More later.

I wonder if you are entitled to enter the house without the gf's permission. (It sounds from what you wrote above you may have done that, though I may be misinterpreting what you wrote.) It would depend on the laws of the jurisdiction she lives in but I imagine it is likely that she has at least the rights of a tenant, possibly including the right not to have her home entered without her permission or the proper notice. If I were her, I would not be keen on having the family come through my home either. She may be concerned you may remove things that she considers her own, and she may have a legitimate claim to anything there. How do you know whether or not your brother gifted certain things in the home to her?

Despite the fact that there is a mortgage, I highly doubt you are entitled to charge her anything for rent. In California, even if someone is living rent free, if they have lived in a place for a year, they are entitled to 60 days notice, and you cannot charge them rent. That is the way it was explained to me a few years ago when I had to deal with a very similar situation, in California. So giving her 90 days rent free may be more than required, but it is not really a large gesture-she may have been entitled to 60 days anyway.

If I were you I would tread very carefully and make no moves at all except as advised by an attorney.

Best wishes and again I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[38Chevy454]

Cooperation and sympathy is a two-way street. The GF is not doing anything to be positive with respect to these attributes. So my opinion is time to be an a-hole and enforce the 90 days *max* and also ensure the lawyer is aware of her non-cooperation.


I just don't buy her being so distraught. Total BS and trying to take advantage of the situation. She does not deserve any more than what she has been offered, especially with her attitude. The golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated. She has demonstrated very clearly her view of following this rule. Out she goes with nothing beyond maybe a small remembrance item or two.

 

[Travelfreek]

She owns a home in the same town as our DB’s home but rents it out. She also owns a home a couple hours away where her business is. We also learned she has other rentals. I agree if I was her i would be sad I wan’t recognized. His death was kind of sudden and unexpected though he was stage 4 for many months.

She never indicated how long she wanted to stay but was freaked out at the thought of 3 mos though she won’t allow access to us of the home. It doesn’t look like any of her furniture is there. We did agree to give her first opportunity to buy the home but want her out at 3 mo mark so we can finally access it and assess what we may want or what we will give to her. We all have too much stuff and don’t really need all his stuff. We have been very accommodating and we are working through atty due to her lack of cooperation.

 

[gayl]

Could they not go to the post office and have his mail delivered to another address?

That's exactly what the trustee needs to do .... have the mail forwarded to a PO Box or held until picked up by a sibling. It is ridiculous to have it go thru the attorney.

Also if you charge rent do you have to go through eviction proceedings if she refuses to move?

 

[pb4uski]

She owns a home in the same town as our DB’s home but rents it out. She also owns a home a couple hours away where her business is. We also learned she has other rentals. I agree if I was her i would be sad I wan’t recognized. His death was kind of sudden and unexpected though he was stage 4 for many months.

She never indicated how long she wanted to stay but was freaked out at the thought of 3 mos though she won’t allow access to us of the home. It doesn’t look like any of her furniture is there. We did agree to give her first opportunity to buy the home but want her out at 3 mo mark so we can finally access it and assess what we may want or what we will give to her. We all have too much stuff and don’t really need all his stuff. We have been very accommodating and we are working through atty due to her lack of cooperation.

Have you sat down with her face to face to try to work things out?

At the end of the day she has no legal right to continue to live there so you have the upper hand, but there is no reason to be mean. IMO, 3 months is generous and you need to have access to get whatever you need out of the house.

Given the 3 months seems decided, my stance would be her cooperation = 3 months... no cooperation = 3 weeks, and beyond that it is her choice.

And have your lawyer emphasize that she has no legal right to remain there.. she isn't on the deed, she doesn't have a lease, the trust owns the property and the successor trustees control the property... not much to it than that.

 

[ivinsfan]

She owns a home in the same town as our DB’s home but rents it out. She also owns a home a couple hours away where her business is. We also learned she has other rentals. I agree if I was her i would be sad I wan’t recognized. His death was kind of sudden and unexpected though he was stage 4 for many months.

She never indicated how long she wanted to stay but was freaked out at the thought of 3 mos though she won’t allow access to us of the home. It doesn’t look like any of her furniture is there. We did agree to give her first opportunity to buy the home but want her out at 3 mo mark so we can finally access it and assess what we may want or what we will give to her. We all have too much stuff and don’t really need all his stuff. We have been very accommodating and we are working through atty due to her lack of cooperation.

Sounds like with her renting her actual home she and your DB thought they would have more time together. Now she has a home she can't move into which would be an upsetting thought for her. A WAG would be that she was hoping to figure something out with your family so she could stay there until her house was free of her renter. I didn't say that was reasonable but it would have been the least amount of effort and stress for her. As far as allowing access I'm not even sure what that means. What were you going to access. Perhaps the thought of your going in (there are 3 of you compared to one of her) and digging through the house seemed unbearable and sad to her. She is a tenant with some legal rights and protections this point. She couldn't just wander into her own rented house and start digging through stuff.

So sad your DB didn't put anything writing giving her a year or whatever seemed fair to them before he died. Or even tell one of his sibs what he wanted done for the GF..

 

[pb4uski]

.... She is a tenant with some legal rights and protections this point. ...

I disagree (but I'm not a lawyer). From what the OP has written it seems that she was a guest in DB's home as his live-in GF. She wasn't a tenant.... I'm sure that if he lived and they had a falling out that he could have compelled her to leave anytime that he wished... if so then she has no legal rights... now she is just a guest of the trust and the trustees can compel her to leave at any time of their chosing just like the DB could have.

That said, given the situation there is no need for the trustees to be mean or unreasonable.

 

[gwraigty]

She is a tenant with some legal rights and protections this point. She couldn't just wander into her own rented house and start digging through stuff.

So sad your DB didn't put anything writing giving her a year or whatever seemed fair to them before he died. Or even tell one of his sibs what he wanted done for the GF..

IANAL and have no landlording experience, but pb4uski's post above this suggests otherwise and it sounds right to me. I do have experience, sort of, as a tenant, having lived in a privately owned rental housing complex for the first 28 years of my life. The landlord does have the right to enter the property, with notice. A tenant cannot refuse to allow this. The tenant does not even have to be present, although that would be more desirable for all parties concerned.

If a rental house is sold, I believe the new owners would have as much right to access the house as the former owners did. In this case, it's not a landlord/tenant relationship anyway. This house wasn't used as a rental. It was an owner-occupied house that's been inherited.

According to OP's latest update, the GF owns another house besides her rental house, so it sounds like she still has a house she could move back into. Her insistence on staying in this house and refusing access to the new legal owners makes no sense.

Here's a similar what-if for you. In 1992, I moved into my fiance's house, about 4 months prior to our scheduled wedding date. We'd been engaged since October 1991. I had no legal claim on the house, no will leaving me anything, no statutory rights at all. If he'd been hit by a Mack truck commuting to/from work and perished before our wedding, state law would have had his parents inherit everything. I have little doubt that they would have made me vacate the house ASAP with only my personal possessions. I would not have had the right to prevent them access to the house. I was a live-in fiancee, not a tenant. Fortunately for me, that tragedy didn't happen.

OP, please keep us updated on events.

 

[RunningBum]

As far as allowing access I'm not even sure what that means. What were you going to access. Perhaps the thought of your going in (there are 3 of you compared to one of her) and digging through the house seemed unbearable and sad to her. She is a tenant with some legal rights and protections this point. She couldn't just wander into her own rented house and start digging through stuff.

Are you serious? The executor has the right, and the duty, to inventory the belongings of the deceased. They also need to assess the house and see what it will take to sell it. Even if she was a tenant, which she is not, she needs to allow reasonable access. She can't just wander into her own rented house but she does have a right to enter with notice. You really think a tenant can lock a landlord out indefinitely?

 

[ivinsfan]

I disagree (but I'm not a lawyer). From what the OP has written it seems that she was a guest in DB's home as his live-in GF. She wasn't a tenant.... I'm sure that if he lived and they had a falling out that he could have compelled her to leave anytime that he wished... if so then she has no legal rights... now she is just a guest of the trust and the trustees can compel her to leave at any time of their chosing just like the DB could have.

That said, given the situation there is no need for the trustees to be mean or unreasonable.

Depends on the law doesn't it? And she is in a very grey area. I would argue if they put their lives together and she was living with and helping caretake, she is somewhat more then a guest. Co-habituating has it own set of rules so who knows. Anyway still feel it wasn't cool to enter the house while she was gone and without her knowing what was happening.

 

[ivinsfan]

Are you serious? The executor has the right, and the duty, to inventory the belongings of the deceased. They also need to assess the house and see what it will take to sell it. Even if she was a tenant, which she is not, she needs to allow reasonable access. She can't just wander into her own rented house but she does have a right to enter with notice. You really think a tenant can lock a landlord out indefinitely?

Yes people can look at this lots of different ways. My suggestion from the beginning was to bite the bullet pay the lawyer and have the lawyer handle it.

Reasonable access and proper notice can go through the lawyer...otherwise it's down to what she said, they said, what she said the brother said and on and on. If you don't think she fits under the tenants rights, where do you think she fits, that's the question isn't it. Certainly open to different opinions, but the law is the law and they should work with it that way

Did I ever say indefinitely , No..the poor guy has been deceased a little over 3 weeks.

 

[ivinsfan]

IANAL and have no landlording experience, but pb4uski's post above this suggests otherwise and it sounds right to me. I do have experience, sort of, as a tenant, having lived in a privately owned rental housing complex for the first 28 years of my life. The landlord does have the right to enter the property, with notice. A tenant cannot refuse to allow this. The tenant does not even have to be present, although that would be more desirable for all parties concerned.

If a rental house is sold, I believe the new owners would have as much right to access the house as the former owners did. In this case, it's not a landlord/tenant relationship anyway. This house wasn't used as a rental. It was an owner-occupied house that's been inherited.

According to OP's latest update, the GF owns another house besides her rental house, so it sounds like she still has a house she could move back into. Her insistence on staying in this house and refusing access to the new legal owners makes no sense.

Here's a similar what-if for you. In 1992, I moved into my fiance's house, about 4 months prior to our scheduled wedding date. We'd been engaged since October 1991. I had no legal claim on the house, no will leaving me anything, no statutory rights at all. If he'd been hit by a Mack truck commuting to/from work and perished before our wedding, state law would have had his parents inherit everything. I have little doubt that they would have made me vacate the house ASAP with only my personal possessions. I would not have had the right to prevent them access to the house. I was a live-in fiancee, not a tenant. Fortunately for me, that tragedy didn't happen.

OP, please keep us updated on events.

Third party reporting gets confusing who knows if she actually has a house she could move into at this moment. Like I commented maybe she's not a tenant but she is probably more then a guest, so call the lawyer have him take care of it.