Turning over a new leaf in the Soap Box

[bssc]

Just a note:
It took the lab Edison managed 3000 tries before he could take credit for the light bulb.

Well, if Edison was a PHB, the lab would have failed 2999 times until Edison pointed out the correct solution.

 

[Purron]

Mistake? Heck, no. It was simply an experiment which resulted in an unsatisfactory outcome.

No argument here. To be honest, I wish I had never become involved in the soapbox. It ended up being a distraction from important stuff like bacon

 

[Westernskies]

We're attempting to strike a happy medium. Post a photo of a smiling fortune-teller and we'll slap her silly.

 

[Goonie]

To be honest, I wish I had never become involved in the soapbox.

I put soapbox on 'ignore' almost immediately after it's creation, and only opened the door and peeked in about 2 times....it was like opening the door of an outhouse on a hot summer day...Oh the stench...YUCK!!!

 

[retire@40]

I put soapbox on 'ignore' almost immediately after it's creation, and only opened the door and peeked in about 2 times....it was like opening the door of an outhouse on a hot summer day...Oh the stench...YUCK!!!

Isn't it better to keep the outhouse far away from the house.

I hope this move doesn't put the outhouse in the kitchen.

 

[Midpack]

2. Be polite. Treat those who disagree with you with respect even as you disagree.

Sad to see the Soapbox go, I learned some things even though I got winged several times. This is a group that has a lot in common, and certainly folks here have much to offer aside from RE alone. But I can appreciate it couldn't have been very rewarding to be a Moderator (I got mildly disciplined once, but I respected the Mods POV).

The decorum on this forum's Soapbox was relatively civil --- as many of you know, there are other sites that are downright vicious.

But if you ever bring back a Soapbox, you can't impose a rule like the above though. You can't be polite or subtle with people who are wrong (we tried that to no avail), they will never appreciate those who are (usually) right.

Guess we'll have to decide what to do with the domestic automakers by Jan 1...

 

[REWahoo]

But if you ever bring back a Soapbox, you can't impose a rule like the above though. You can't be polite or subtle with people who are wrong (we tried that to no avail), they will never appreciate those who are (usually) right.

Thank you for providing reinforcing information on why the Soap Box needs to go.

 

[Midpack]

Thank you for providing reinforcing information on why the Soap Box needs to go.

Please tell me you're joking...

 

[FinanceDude]

Mods/Admins never make mistakes. We just, er, seek out new directions.

Yeah, I was part of the "new direction" you guys went away from..........

 

[Bestwifeever]

The election being over, good idea to resume our regularly scheduled programming here on E-R.org.

And very nice of this board to use some of its bandwidth to provide us with the Soapbox during the election--thanks for that, Andy.

 

[ziggy29]

But if you ever bring back a Soapbox, you can't impose a rule like the above though. You can't be polite or subtle with people who are wrong (we tried that to no avail), they will never appreciate those who are (usually) right.

Keep in mind the focus of this board. It's about early retirement. It's not about full contact politics; there are plenty of other places to go if you simply want to argue politics. In fact, I think your comment is evidence as to *why* generic political discussion needs the kibosh. It's because many people who enjoy full-contact politics are incapable of keeping it civil ("polite" and "subtle" to use your words) that we felt this is necessary.

You say we "can't be polite... with people who are wrong." Two problems here: first. you CAN be polite with people who are "wrong"; it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are evil or stupid. And if you can't, that's a clear violation of the terms of service and the community rules. That's one of the things that personally depresses me about political discussion; sometimes it seems like people can't accept that intelligent and well-meaning people can possibly be "on the other side."

The second problem is that there isn't usually a "right" and a "wrong." There are merely two different perspectives. Okay, in extreme cases there may be right and wrong, but that's not the norm.

I hate to say it in some sense, but in my opinion what you said is exactly *why* we need to get rid of the Soap Box as we know it. Too much allowance on politics tends to create an us-versus-them attitude that can harm the sense of community and common goal that should bring us together. This forum is about early retirement. When political issues relate to FIRE, respectful and on-topic discussion of the political aspects is acceptable. When it bursts into flames, and when it has nothing to do with FIRE, it just divides us and makes life miserable. Who wants that?

 

[Gumby]

While there was some "heat" in the Soapbox, I'm sorry to see it go. We had some good discussions there, and many that remained civil. It did serve to keep the off-RE stuff segregated in an area where those who didn't want to see it could avoid it.

But, I think my viewpoint is in the minority here. Moreover, it's easy for me to snipe since I wasn't a Mod having the keep the peace in that forum. It was surely a thankless job. Thanks to all who helped out (and continue to do so).

Re: Rule one: This seems to scope down the discussion a lot--is that the intent? A quick look at the "Other Topics" as well as the Soapbox would reveal a great number of threads that don't meet this standard, yet were highly productive and didn't turn into a flame war. Here are some sample topics that aren't ER related, are they all no longer welcome on this board?
-- Gov Blago's woes in IL
-- US education policy compared to other industrialized nations
-- US health care policy (not necessarily retiree-related: Should we have single payer? State policies--which are working? )
-- Government energy policies, govt incentives for PV, and alternative energy research (per Rule 1, it appears that discussions of alternative energy sources is okay, but discussions of government policy in this area is not?).

While bare-knuckle politically partisan arguments may not be everyone's cup of tea (and we've had relatively few of them here, with the number decreasing markedly since the election), I'm hoping we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There's a lot of good-natured banter and genuine info sharing that would be knocked out by a literal interpretation of Rule 1. I'd hate to lose that, but will, of course, yield to the decision of the collective.

To paraphrase U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart -- "We'll know it when we see it."

 

[brewer12345]

As you know, last spring we opened a new experimental forum to isolate and hopefully reduce the political discussion in other forums on the board.

Now that the election season has passed, we will close the current Soap Box & Headline News forum effective January 1. We will move posting of non-political headline news topics to "Other Topics" and add a new section for "FIRE Related Political Topics." We will also implement new rules (and reiterate some old ones) regarding posting on political subjects:

1. Any political or government/policy related post must be related to the subject of early retirement in more than a tenuous fashion. Posting to debate Sarah Palin's wardrobe, for example, does not meet this test.

2. Be polite. Treat those who disagree with you with respect even as you disagree.

3. Avoid sweeping generalizations and group characterizations (including generalizations regarding ideology and/or political party). Do not put aside collegial posting habits when you enter the newly renovated FIRE Related Political Topics Discussion section.

Thanks for your continued participation and help with a fresh start for the New Year.


REWahoo and the entire Moderator Team

So the mod team has decided that its a good idea to dump the cesspool into the drinking water and then spend their time trying to ensure water quality by using a teaspoon with holes in it? Tell me again why this is a good idea?

 

[brewer12345]

You trying to get this moved to the soapbox? I think the Soapbox should stay and not be moderated.

Gak, please don't quote this stuff at length. Most of us have [-]sihtbox[/-] soapbox on ignore for a reason...

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Lets face facts, folks- the Soapbox had to go… It is getting too close to inauguration time! Please understand, there will be no criticism of the Messiah, effective January 1st. It was OK to openly bash the Republican Administration for the last few years, but CHANGE is coming to the FIRE forum, whether you like it or not.

What I found is that the value and civility of posts on other forums, like money, health, other topics, etc. dropped inversely with the heat and BS in the soapbox. I found myself enjoying the entire board (not just the soapbox) considerably less than I had before.

For example, hostile sarcasm seemed to pop up everywhere more often, even when irrelevant to the topic. Kinda' like the comments quoted above, a nice example of how even mentioning the soapbox brings out, well, not the best of the board.

 

[ziggy29]

Gak, please don't quote this stuff at length. Most of us have [-]sihtbox[/-] soapbox on ignore for a reason...

I certainly understand that. (Before I recently became a mod, I had the Soap Box on ignore, too.)

The goal isn't to move the sewage into other boards, but to stop the sewage. The idea is that FIRE-related political discussion will be moved to the new board, and that existing boards won't be allowed to become toxic.

Look, here's the thing for all who aren't sure of the intent. We're not trying to stop all political discussion. As I see it, there are a couple of primary objectives:

(1) Eliminate disrepectful and "flaming" political discussion;

(2) Eliminate political discussion completely unrelated to FIRE and the Quest for FIRE.

I'd like to think point 1 is obvious; it's simply a violation of the Terms of Service and the Community Rules.

Point 2 is something I'd like to expand on. The closing of the Soap Box "as we know it" isn't intended to stifle all political discussion. The intent is to eliminate political discussion that isn't relevant to FIRE or the Quest for FIRE.

Discussion of Social Security reform is relevant to FIRE.

Someone in Iraq throwing a shoe at President Bush is NOT relevant to FIRE.

Health care reform is relevant to FIRE.

Sarah Palin's church being set ablaze is NOT relevant to FIRE.

Medicare reform is obviously related to FIRE.

The status of Barack Obama's birth certificate is NOT all that relevant to FIRE.

I hope you see the pattern. Anything which very clearly relates to the financial ability to retire early -- or stay retired early if you already are -- is fair game.

If it doesn't relate directly to retirement issues -- it's probably out of bounds.

The bottom line is that there are many other places to go if your desire is to debate full-contact politics. This forum is not the place for that.

 

[brewer12345]

The goal isn't to move the sewage into other boards, but to stop the sewage.

While I think this is a noble goal, it ignores a fundamental part of human existence: the poop has to go somewhere (or else you explode).

But much luck to all the mods in policing all of the boards with extreme prejudice instead of just one...

 

[Notmuchlonger]

Gak, please don't quote this stuff at length. Most of us have [-]sihtbox[/-] soapbox on ignore for a reason...

I have soapbox on ignore too. However, I don't know which individual posters you have on ignore

 

[brewer12345]

I have soapbox on ignore too. However, I don't know which individual posters you have on ignore

Prolly not that hard to tell in this case...

 

[Nords]

So the mod team has decided that its a good idea to dump the cesspool into the drinking water and then spend their time trying to ensure water quality by using a teaspoon with holes in it? Tell me again why this is a good idea?

While I think this is a noble goal, it ignores a fundamental part of human existence: the poop has to go somewhere (or else you explode).
But much luck to all the mods in policing all of the boards with extreme prejudice instead of just one...

No problem. There won't be a Soapbox so we can just report the dreck to the mods for them to edit or delete.

 

[REWahoo]

No problem. There won't be a Soapbox so we can just report the dreck to the mods for them to edit or delete.

That's the plan.

 

[Rustic23]

I think the SoapBox did exactly what it was suppose to. People that were not interested in the type of topics posted there put it on ignore. People that were stayed there and the rest of the board remained free of the stuff that was spewed there. Well for the most part. I think you are going to find that without it the 'Free Speech' stuff will come back, people will be drawn in by trolls to meaningless arguments, and the moderators jobs will become harder not easier.

 

[Nords]

I think you are going to find that without it the 'Free Speech' stuff will come back, people will be drawn in by trolls to meaningless arguments, and the moderators jobs will become harder not easier.

That gets back to ownership using SEO & Adsense to draw in everyone on the Internet who thinks "early retirement" means that we're interested in what they're selling.

Or in guys like Capt Karl, whatever he's selling...

Now if Google & Adsense were used to draw in people who want to use the Soapbox as a totally separate board, yet still part of the SocialKnowledge system, then our E-R.org moderators wouldn't have to put up with trolls or Soapbox backflush!

 

[haha]

What I found is that the value and civility of posts on other forums, like money, health, other topics, etc. dropped inversely with the heat and BS in the soapbox. I found myself enjoying the entire board (not just the soapbox) considerably less than I had before.

For example, hostile sarcasm seemed to pop up everywhere more often, even when irrelevant to the topic. Kinda' like the comments quoted above, a nice example of how even mentioning the soapbox brings out, well, not the best of the board.

From my POV the problem with this board is not too much vinegar, but too much cotton candy. You bite it, and it is gone. Too many threads that pretty much parse to "One More Reason Why We Are Better Than Everyone Else".

The other thing is, once one has been retired for a while, dealt with some good markets and some bad markets, and figured out how to spend his/her days, what the heck does s/he have to learn about retirement? Nothing, except details that come up occasionally where a well informed answer can be very helpful.


As for "educating newbies", I think that is nothing more than arrogance. How many newbies came here and people immediately tried to convince them to have larger equity allocations than they previously had. Not sure this helped.

For my part, it is more than enough to try to figure out what I want to do without appointing myself a helper to someone else- someone who may be closer to correct than I am at a given time.

There really isn't much to learn about early retirement. Here is the Cliff's Notes:

Don't develop expensive tastes. Maybe avoid children. Get a government job if you possibly can. Invest reasonably, maybe with some care about valuations. Be very careful about whom you marry. Best is someone similarly monomaniacal as yourself. Don't get divorced. If you do get divorced, get a good lawyer. Never ever go without health insurance. Move heaven and earth to satisfy this one. Drive old cars. Prefer old second hand clothes. Eat a diet similar to a teacher or low level bureaucrat in Egypt.

That is about all you need.

So how can we be expected to pleasurably kill time around here without joking and the occasional barfight?

Ha

 

[Achiever51]

...
There really isn't much to learn about early retirement. Here is the Cliff's Notes:

Don't develop expensive tastes. Maybe avoid children. Get a government job if you possibly can. Invest reasonably, maybe with some care about valuations. Be very careful about whom you marry. Best is someone similarly monomaniacal as yourself. Don't get divorced. If you do get divorced, get a good lawyer. Never ever go without health insurance. Move heaven and earth to satisfy this one. Drive old cars. Prefer old second hand clothes. Eat a diet similar to a teacher or low level bureaucrat in Egypt.

That is about all you need....

Ha

Thanks for the summary. You nailed it perfectly! I'm gonna share this with my daughter and several of her 20-something friends who've asked me about RE.

Excellent!