War on Drugs Over

[dex]

Most of it's grown in the USA these days, cirumventing much
of this unpleasantness (like corruption in foreign countries).
The really nasty guys are far more interested in trafficing
hard drugs, which are more profitable and easier to smuggle
(more compact and less odiferous).

I've searched and couldn't find any info saying most is grown in the USA. I couldn't find much on where is comes from.

Untitled Document

• Where does Marijuana come from?

The majority of marijuana available in the US is smuggled in from Mexico and is a low potency, commercial grade product. The high potent marijuana is usually home grown or smuggled in from Canada. Recent seizures indicate that the content of THC has increased in the home grown product. Law enforcement data indicate that arrests for marijuana possession are up across the nation. The Bureau of Justice Survey indicates that about 12% of prisoners in the nation are serving time for a first marijuana related offense.

 

[dex]

I still am not sure why this is FIRE related, but it is one of my hot button topics, so I'll respond. I personally believe we would be in a better position if all of the drugs on your list were legal. Managed by the government maybe (not my first choice), but not illegal creating black markets, criminal combines, street violence, opportunities for terrorist organizations to make money from us, huge numbers of relatively harmless individuals in prison, etc.

We know what the world looks like with the current system (see above how I think it should change). How would it look under your proposal?

The legalization stance might sound hip but in reality it is the hopeless, insensitive the pain of people, and lack of concern alternative. It says people can not change.

I do not think the USA has truly accepted its responsibility for its part of the drug trade and harm it has caused around the world. (It is easier for the USA to accept its part in global warming.) The users need to take part of that responsibility and they need help to stop.

I can name at least 15 people who died as a result of drugs; 20 that have screwed up their lives due to drugs; and then there are those around them that were hurt. I started drinking alcohol at 12. It was easy to get - stand outside a liquor store and ask someone to buy you some wine for you and your friends. I'm glad I couldn't get drugs that easy. I wouldn't be alive.

Faces of Meth | Meth Photos | Effects of Meth

 

[harley]

I started smoking pot at 13, tried everything that had been invented by my mid thirties, and know numerous people that have died due to alcohol, both from driving and from poisoning. Anecdotal evidence, as I believe you have said before, is mostly meaningless. I know beyond doubt that pot is less dangerous than alcohol. The only person ever killed by pot had a bale of it fall on him. And IMHO pprison is far more dangerous to people and their loved ones than any drug. As you say, people can change, but their lives are pretty much ruined after a prison sentence.

However, religious arguments are futile. I'd rather try to convince someone that the '85 Bears were a better team than the '62 Packers. You've made up your mind, I've made up mine, and neither will make any difference in the long run. This thread, which has nothing to do with early retirement, has nowhere to go. I'm going to mellow out with my second favorite drug, a nice 12 year old Laphroaig, and dream of the time I can legally inhale a vaporized houseplant along with it, for a combination buzz better than the sum of its parts. Good night.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I started smoking pot at 13, tried everything that had been invented by my mid thirties, and know numerous people that have died due to alcohol, both from driving and from poisoning. Anecdotal evidence, as I believe you have said before, is mostly meaningless. I know beyond doubt that pot is less dangerous than alcohol. The only person ever killed by pot had a bale of it fall on him. And IMHO pprison is far more dangerous to people and their loved ones than any drug. As you say, people can change, but their lives are pretty much ruined after a prison sentence.

However, religious arguments are futile. I'd rather try to convince someone that the '85 Bears were a better team than the '62 Packers. You've made up your mind, I've made up mine, and neither will make any difference in the long run. This thread, which has nothing to do with early retirement, has nowhere to go. I'm going to mellow out with my second favorite drug, a nice 12 year old Laphroaig, and dream of the time I can legally inhale a vaporized houseplant along with it, for a combination buzz better than the sum of its parts. Good night.

I agree with everything you say, except for your implication that the
topic is inappropriate. That's what "Other Topics" is for, a place for
people to talk about non-FIRErelated topics and thus save the other
parts of the forum from digression.

 

[dex]

You've made up your mind, I've made up mine, and neither will make any difference in the long run.

I haven't made up my mind; I am open to other options. However, you have not provided a vision of what you "legalization" would look like in the real world.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I haven't made up my mind; I am open to other options. However, you have not provided a vision of what you "legalization" would look like in the real world.

Although I couldn't agree less with most of what you've said about
marijuana, and legalization, here is an article that supports what you've
been saying - about hard drugs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/world/americas/18peru.html

 

[kumquat]

I haven't made up my mind; I am open to other options. However, you have not provided a vision of what you "legalization" would look like in the real world.

How about a marijuana section in the liquor store?

 

[dex]

Although I couldn't agree less with most of what you've said about

Thanks for the article.
We do not have to agree - we only need to present our ideas in an logical, insightful and respectful manor.

 

[thefed]

Here's a step in the right direction:

Attorney general signals shift in marijuana policy

 

[Westernskies]

Taking illegal drugs is not a victimless activity.

My sentiments exactly...

 

[kumquat]

Here's a step in the right direction:

Attorney general signals shift in marijuana policy

Ya, five years for following the law of the state seems about right.

 

[Gardnr]

I still am not sure why this is FIRE related, but it is one of my hot button topics, so I'll respond. I personally believe we would be in a better position if all of the drugs on your list were legal. Managed by the government maybe (not my first choice), but not illegal creating black markets, criminal combines, street violence, opportunities for terrorist organizations to make money from us, huge numbers of relatively harmless individuals in prison, etc.

However, I know this isn't even remotely feasible in our society now, and maybe never will be. So I would be satisfied if the most harmless of all the standardly used drugs (including alcohol and tobacco), marijuana, was legalized. I don't have specific numbers. However, I suspect legalization of pot would wipe out more than 50% of all the drug related problems we are currently experiencing. That would leave coke/crack as the major issue. The rest are very minor in numbers.

So, anyway, there's my answer. My only comment about the War on Drugs is a quote (probably wrongly) attributed to Benjamin Franklin - The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. By that definition the War on Drugs is insane. By any definition except one used by the ONDCP the War on Drugs is a failure. I wish your thread title had some accuracy. It would be in the country's best interest if it was over.

For what it's worth I agree with you and RustyS (and mostly with Ziggy too) on this topic. I don't use pot myself. I tried it in my youth but didn't enjoy the effects. But I find the hypocrisy regarding pot vs. alcohol to be truly ridiculous. Maybe it will require a generational change. I think there are still too many people hung up on the hippy images from the 60s and 70s.

We need to stop wasting huge amounts of resources on this. IMO we ruin more lives in the prosecution of this drug war against pot than would be the case if it were legalized.

With that said, some hard choices need to be made about what products should be made illegal. Meth, heroin and some others are truly destructive. There's no perfect solution, as usual.

 

[Khan]

For what it's worth I agree with you and RustyS (and mostly with Ziggy too) on this topic. I don't use pot myself. I tried it in my youth but didn't enjoy the effects. But I find the hypocrisy regarding pot vs. alcohol to be truly ridiculous. Maybe it will require a generational change. I think there are still too many people hung up on the hippy images from the 60s and 70s.

We need to stop wasting huge amounts of resources on this. IMO we ruin more lives in the prosecution of this drug war against pot than would be the case if it were legalized.

With that said, some hard choices need to be made about what products should be made illegal. Meth, heroin and some others are truly destructive. There's no perfect solution, as usual.

I think heroin should be made legal for terminal patients.

 

[harley]

I'd like to apologise for the delay in my response. Dex asked for a reasoned vision and so I wanted to think about it some. I know what I believe, but putting it into words is more difficult than I thought. Most people either already agree with me or aren't interested in listening.

There are two aspects of this conversation - if marijuana and other low impact drugs were legalized, and if all street drugs were legalized. I'll answer in two posts. First, because it's so easy, marijuana, hash, and anything else that is basically equivalent to or less dangerous than alcohol. Some people would include psychedelics (shrooms, peyote, etc) and ecstasy in this class. But I'll stick with pot and hash for now. And I'm going to completely ignore the political aspects of the issue, since they have nothing to do with reality, only perception. I'm also going to pretty much disregard the immense number of (non-criminal) people whose careers and lifestyles are dependent on the Drug War, and who would fight any change that might effect them financially. By far the biggest opponents of the end of prohibition are the criminals who currently make billions per year on filling the orders.

I believe if these items were available legally, the major societal changes would be a huge decrease in

1) the number of people in jail whose lives are ruined and whose assets are confiscated
2) the multi-billions of dollars wasted on our current (and unsuccessful) prohibition
3) the deaths (civilian, innocent and guilty, and police) associated with the SWAT style arrest attempts of users and low level dealers. Also the incredible overcrowding of our court system. And maybe the use of snitches trading lower sentences for turning in other people, some of whom are very low level or completely innocent.
4) the exposure to the criminal underworld of people who just want to have a little fun
5) the massive profits of said criminals, who would lose their markets overnight. This would also have the effect of de-glamourizing criminals and causing young minority children to stop seeing criminal life as the easiest way to succeed.
6) the preying on children of said criminals, while trying to create a class of customers
7) the waste of resources by LE, who could then focus on real crime (violence, robbery, rape, murder, ponzi schemes)
8) the profits of the black market which may have been used to finance terrorism
9) the excuse of the drug war in regards to the suspension of many constitutional and civil rights
10) the massive amount of street violence currently related to the prohibition.

I would like to make a point about that last item. I used to think the violence would end as soon as the prohibition ended. However, I think violence as a way to resolve disagreements has become so ingrained in society at this point that it would take a number of years to end it. This leads to some other aspects of ending prohibition that I believe would be a positive effect.

1) The huge taxable income from the sales to current (and a couple of new ) users.
2) The ability to redirect money currently expended on enforcing prohibition to try to resolve basic social problems - poverty, inequality, education. I know more money won't solve these, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. And many of these issues are the basis of the various addictions prohibition is trying to resolve. Also, by far the largest number of casual drug users (as well as abusers and addicts) are white. If drugs were legal it might help end the huge disparity in arrests of minorities, possibly allowing hundreds of thousands of fathers to be involved in their families, while holding down legitimate jobs. And it might help change society's image of minorities as criminals and drug abusers. Over time.

I also am aware that there will be some negative issues. The point about telling our kids it's OK to use drugs should be handled by education, just as it is now with tobacco and alcohol. It would be equally effective, or ineffective, depending on your POV. I would have absolutely no problem with not allowing the corporate entities to advertise the products, or to limit them just like with tobacco and alcohol. But the limitations should be right in line with beer and wine for pot, and liquor for hash. It's only fair.

That's about where I am with this part. Feel free to rebut or question.

 

[harley]

I truly don't have a complete answer for the legalizing all drugs question, although my gut instinct is that it would still be better than our current social situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------
This paragraph is more regarding pot, but valid for hard drugs too:

I recognise that there would be issues at first, with increased use and experimentation. But after a few years or a decade or so things would normalize. At that point I believe our society would be in such better shape as to appear to be a paradise compared to what is happening now. I believe the solution is important enough that it deserves a fair chance. Prohibition has been in place for almost a century, so a couple of decades of an alternative experiment shouldn't be too much to ask.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I understand that there will be people with problems, and those problems would effect others. However, pretty much anyone who wants currently illegal drugs can get them without any problems now. So we have that situation now, and we have a legal system capable of dealing with people who overstep the bounds. Driving under the influence (real, not from smoking a joint 10 days earlier), family abuse, violence, improper public behavior, etc all have consequences now, and there doesn't need to be any real change in the laws for street drugs.

I believe any drug with therapeutic use should be legal, even if it had to be prescribed. As Khan says, heroin should be legal for terminal patients. What do they have to lose, and why shouldn't they be able to choose their preferred medication? And who cares if they ft addicted. They can't take it with them.

In keeping with this, I believe doctor's should be able to prescribe pain medication at levels they think is appropriate, without having to worry about DEA interference, loss of license, and jail. Again, there are already ways to deal with doctors who abuse their power, and they should be used when required. Cocaine, MDMA (ecstasy), steroids, lsd, speed, downers and others all have medical uses, and could be prescribed if they were legal and warranted.

As far as social use of harder drugs, I think they can be a lot of fun. I do recognise the addictive aspect of some of them, as well as the potential physical effects of long term use. Again, I'm not sure how to apply sales and availability issues to these. But if someone wants to trip out and watch Fantasia or do a little Valium to kick back after a bad day, jail is a pretty severe consequence. I truly believe that over time education would effectively limit the number of people using, much less abusing the drugs. The abusers would need to be dealt with through education and rehab. If their actions required it, LE would come into play. Just as it does now with anyone who breaks the laws.

I'd actually be quite interested in hearing other's ideas about the harder drugs being legalized. It would be an intellectual exercise only. I suspect it would require decades of lower level drug legalization before this issue could even be raised seriously.

 

[REWahoo]

Harley are there any non-third world countries who have done something like you are proposing? If so, what can we learn from them?

 

[dex]

Harley,
Excellent posts.
#1
Thanks for taking the time and thought that went into it. I agree with the concept of legalized pot and hash - meaning handled similar to alcohol. There are resulting problems - using both can multiply the effects. Also, as with alcohol there are health effects that society would need to agree to. As we are attempting to get people to stop smoking cigarettes, we would be adding a similar product. Something that would give me pause and I would want more info about.

As to the second post - other drugs. I think it is important to name the drugs. Just using the term drugs is impersonal (?). But to say meth should be sold to anyone over 21 should cause anyone to pause. This concept also raises the question about any new drug that is invented. The so called designer drugs, how should they be handled?

 

[dex]

I truly don't have a complete answer for the legalizing all drugs question, although my gut instinct is that it would still be better than our current social situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------
This paragraph is more regarding pot, but valid for hard drugs too:

I recognise that there would be issues at first, with increased use and experimentation. But after a few years or a decade or so things would normalize. At that point I believe our society would be in such better shape as to appear to be a paradise compared to what is happening now. I believe the solution is important enough that it deserves a fair chance. Prohibition has been in place for almost a century, so a couple of decades of an alternative experiment shouldn't be too much to ask.
------------------------------------------------------

I think a study of the historical use of opiates (China) and other drugs would not support this. There have been socialital prohibitions against drugs for many hundreds of years - wikipedia says thousands. The were reasons people thought their society were better without certain drugs and those need to be addressed. As to the concept that things are terrible now they can only be better if drugs were legalized is not good reasoning. I think the pubic school system has been terrible since I was in grade school. Some school systems have a 50% drop out rate in high school. It does not follow that it would be a better system if we lowered the manditory attendence to the 8 grade . Changes in the school system should be explored. Simarly, changes should be explored to the current war on drugs.

Prohibition (drugs) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I understand that there will be people with problems, and those problems would effect others. However, pretty much anyone who wants currently illegal drugs can get them without any problems now. So we have that situation now, and we have a legal system capable of dealing with people who overstep the bounds. Driving under the influence (real, not from smoking a joint 10 days earlier), family abuse, violence, improper public behavior, etc all have consequences now, and there doesn't need to be any real change in the laws for street drugs.

I don't agree that everyone is plugged into the illegal drug trade. Also, there are threasholds and/or fear that prevents many from even looking.

I believe any drug with therapeutic use should be legal, even if it had to be prescribed. As Khan says, heroin should be legal for terminal patients. What do they have to lose, and why shouldn't they be able to choose their preferred medication? And who cares if they ft addicted. They can't take it with them.

In keeping with this, I believe doctor's should be able to prescribe pain medication at levels they think is appropriate, without having to worry about DEA interference, loss of license, and jail. Again, there are already ways to deal with doctors who abuse their power, and they should be used when required. Cocaine, MDMA (ecstasy), steroids, lsd, speed, downers and others all have medical uses, and could be prescribed if they were legal and warranted.

No real issue with the concept and not very germaine to what we are talking about. Heroin might be a great drug for the terminally ill and there might also be other great legal drugs available. Are there so many terminally ill people scoring illegal herion? A bit of a distraction and probably an issue for another discussion - "early retirement and the ending of life; choosing when"

As far as social use of harder drugs, I think they can be a lot of fun. I do recognise the addictive aspect of some of them, as well as the potential physical effects of long term use. Again, I'm not sure how to apply sales and availability issues to these. But if someone wants to trip out and watch Fantasia or do a little Valium to kick back after a bad day, jail is a pretty severe consequence. I truly believe that over time education would effectively limit the number of people using, much less abusing the drugs. The abusers would need to be dealt with through education and rehab. If their actions required it, LE would come into play. Just as it does now with anyone who breaks the laws.

I'd actually be quite interested in hearing other's ideas about the harder drugs being legalized. It would be an intellectual exercise only. I suspect it would require decades of lower level drug legalization before this issue could even be raised seriously.

I think you have set up the question well. I would only stress that the use of the word "drug" or "recreational drug" doesn not make it real to me.. Being specific l just as you did with pot makes it real - Crack cocaine, meth, qualudes etc. Also, the short and long term affects of the legalization of these drugs need to be added to vision.
Health - how will long term use affect the health of the user, how should society address this
Addition - how handled
Economic - once addicted and the person can not pay for the drug - what then
Economic - if addicted and can not work how is the person handled by society
Social - affects of use on family

Just saying a drug should be legalized is not even the first step in the discussion and vision of this new world.

Finally, the concept of equating all perceived wrongs as equal is doubtful. To say alcohol is abused and society has handled that so it is ok to legalized meth and society will handle that does not show an understanding of the issues. For example, alcohol use in western culture began as a partial solution to polluted water. The west used fermenting to address the issue, the east used boiling water. There are other issues. Serfice to say the equating is not a good argument.

 

[Koolau]

I wonder if there could be a discussion of "legalization" vs decriminalization? "Legal" implies at least some tacit approval. If you sell (currently illegal) drugs in a drug store, it's sort of like saying "this stuff isn't that bad for you." Sort of like cigarettes. We know that if you use them long enough, they can kill you, but probably only about 8 to 10 years early. If you are willing to trade 10 years for the "pleasure" of smoking, go for it.

But with decriminalization, we still say "this stuff is bad for you and you shouldn't do it, but we aren't going to throw you in jail for buying or selling it." You can't get "safe" or "known potency" drugs in a store, but if you want to take your chances, go ahead. Just don't break other laws while your on the stuff (e.g., doping and driving).

I would be the first to suggest this isn't very satisfying, but I'm much more worried about someone robbing me for dope money than a doper hurting me because he's high - I already worry about (and look out for) the latter. Decriminalizing wouldn't change that equation much IMO.

This is a tough subject and I hold no animosity against anyone who disagrees with me. I think we all wish the "problems" with drugs could go away. They never will. Is there a way we can minimize or control the problems without draconian measures? I hope so. Too many lives have been ruined or ended because of our current situation and our current reaction to the situation.

 

[harley]

My only issue with decrim versus legal is that it doesn't solve the big problem, which is the violent black market. I'm not neccessarily looking to make things better for pot smokers (although that would be nice). I'm looking at the big picture of making a serious improvement in society.

As far as approval, we sell all sorts of things that aren't good for you, from cigarettes to Twinkies. We give lip service to being a free society, although that is changing with the trans-fat police and all. But if we are free in general, then I just don't see why marijuana has to be the exception. Maybe it's a gateway drug, leading to twinky addiction.

That wouldn't change if it was legal, but it might change the gateway to harder drugs syndrome if the buyers weren't required to work through an illegal black market to get their herb.

 

[harley]

Harley are there any non-third world countries who have done something like you are proposing? If so, what can we learn from them?

As far as hard drugs, the closest there is that I know of is Denmark. There's not much there that I would want to base our policy on, and I don't know how it has effected their culture. I'll see if I can read more.

Obviously, the Netherlands is the best example of nearly legal pot, as well as tolerance towards harder drugs. Also Vancouver has done a lot too. Almost all of the problems found in the Netherlands are due to out-of-country people (Americans and other Europeans). As far as their own levels of use, it's significantly less than ours, which should counter the "everybody will become addicted" theory. The use of pot and heroin by young people is also significantly lower than in the US.

The Netherlands Compared With The United States | Drug War Facts

 

[harley]

I think a study of the historical use of opiates (China) and other drugs would not support this. There have been socialital prohibitions against drugs for many hundreds of years - wikipedia says thousands. The were reasons people thought their society were better without certain drugs and those need to be addressed. As to the concept that things are terrible now they can only be better if drugs were legalized is not good reasoning. I think the pubic school system has been terrible since I was in grade school. Some school systems have a 50% drop out rate in high school. It does not follow that it would be a better system if we lowered the manditory attendence to the 8 grade . Changes in the school system should be explored. Simarly, changes should be explored to the current war on drugs.

Prohibition (drugs) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, as I said, I don't have a clear answer on this. I do believe that there are better ways to deal with the drug issue than just throwing users in jail. My main point on the War on Drugs is that it is a failed policy, expensive in dollars and human misery compared to what it accomplishes.

In order for the Drug War to be "Over" (your OP), we as a society would have to change the way we deal with drug users. We have many failed policies, but they don't get ended, mostly because of the entrenched interests in keeping the status quo, or the complexities that would be involved in making such a huge change. Not good excuses, IMHO, considering the problems they cause. Not just prohibition, but the tax code, immigration, and others.

I don't agree that everyone is plugged into the illegal drug trade. Also, there are threasholds and/or fear that prevents many from even looking.

I didn't say everyone was plugged in, I said everyone could get whatever they want without too much trouble. A lot less than the six degrees of Kevin Bacon. This does not speak well to the effectiveness of the prohibition. And I do agree that there are those (myself included) who don't currently imbibe due to the outsized dangers of the legal response. I don't agree that this is a good thing.

No real issue with the concept and not very germaine to what we are talking about. Heroin might be a great drug for the terminally ill and there might also be other great legal drugs available. Are there so many terminally ill people scoring illegal herion? A bit of a distraction and probably an issue for another discussion - "early retirement and the ending of life; choosing when"

Again, due to prohibition there aren't many here using it. However, it's fairly widely used in certain 3rd world countries like Switzerland, Holland, the UK, etc. It's pretty well known to be an incredibly effective analgesic, but not here because of the mania surrounding the word.

I think you have set up the question well. I would only stress that the use of the word "drug" or "recreational drug" doesn not make it real to me.. Being specific l just as you did with pot makes it real - Crack cocaine, meth, qualudes etc. Also, the short and long term affects of the legalization of these drugs need to be added to vision.
Health - how will long term use affect the health of the user, how should society address this
Addition - how handled
Economic - once addicted and the person can not pay for the drug - what then
Economic - if addicted and can not work how is the person handled by society
Social - affects of use on family

Just saying a drug should be legalized is not even the first step in the discussion and vision of this new world.

No argument, there are many isses to be addressed, and much study and thought required. It very well might be that we decide to keep many of these drugs illegal or very difficult to get (prescription). However, it would be nice if these questions could be raised. My problem is that there can be no serious discussion due to the political ramifications. If anyone with power were to seriously address the issue, they would be hounded from office. Words and thoughts are dangerous to the entrenched interests.

Finally, the concept of equating all perceived wrongs as equal is doubtful. To say alcohol is abused and society has handled that so it is ok to legalized meth and society will handle that does not show an understanding of the issues. For example, alcohol use in western culture began as a partial solution to polluted water. The west used fermenting to address the issue, the east used boiling water. There are other issues. Serfice to say the equating is not a good argument.

At some point, it comes down to some people saying "I don't want to do these things, so I am going to keep you from doing it too." Personally, I doubt that there would be many meth users if it was available. It's a damaging and dangerous drug. So are many others. There will always be some idiots who use them, but most will shy away.

My (and many others) basic point in this discussion is that the Drug War/prohibition in it's current form is a major failure, and needs to be revisited from a thoughtful and rational direction. If we as a nation could discuss/vote/decide on the process, I wouldn't be able to say much after the decision was made, although I could continue to politic about it. But the nanny state aspect of the current policy, the "I know what's good for you better than you do" and "it didn't hurt me but I'm going to put you in jail" attitude of our ex-drug using type A politicians is so offensive it makes me want to scream. I'll bail on the harder drug issues, since they cn't even be addressed in our current situation. But there's no excuse for continuing the War on Pot Smokers, and most people agree. Feature: Zogby Poll Says Both Coasts Favor Letting States Legalize Marijuana -- What Is It Going To Take?

I hope we can reconsider the prohibition soon. It does appear that there is some progress being made. I really truly believe it will have a seriously positive effect on our society.

 

[harley]

Just an aside, whenever people have the power to prohibit, they will try - The Associated Press: NJ considers ban on bare-it-all 'Brazilian' wax

 

[RustyShackleford]

Just an aside, whenever people have the power to prohibit, they will try - The Associated Press: NJ considers ban on bare-it-all 'Brazilian' wax

Yes. And oddly, many of the same type folks who preach "less
government" are the same ones who are all in favor of this sort of
stuff.

 

[dex]

Yes. And oddly, many of the same type folks who preach "less
government" are the same ones who are all in favor of this sort of
stuff.

What is really odd is this non sequitur.