West coast fires

[Alectoris]

Air quality here in Independence is 547 today and has been in that area for several days now. A bit of rain might be nice...

Yikes! AQI out here in the Gorge was 432 this morning, I can't imagine 547.

At 432 it feels like I started smoking Camel non-filtered's again.

 

[Midpack]

Article that I found interesting about possible issues behind the California fires. I don’t pretend to know how true these thoughts are. And I don’t want to trigger any disagreements to cause thread tangents. Take it or leave it. Just sharing cause the article seemed well written.


https://www.propublica.org/article/...tm0KQZXa91rNWxsytAlyjUUJcTY86Y2VABgs_qVoCB7BQ

Interesting read, thanks. I was wondering what would make it better since mega fires seem to be an annual event in CA more recently. Sounds like the experts know what needs to be done but there’s no practical way to make the changes now, the players have been too invested in short term and reactive vs proactive (like many/most significant issues) for much too long. Sad. Very expensive.

The QFR acknowledged there was no way prescribed burns and other kinds of forest thinning could make a dent in the risk imposed by the backlog of fuels in the next 10 or even 20 years. “We’re at 20,000 acres a year. We need to get to a million. What’s the reasonable path toward a million acres?” Maybe we could get to 40,000 acres, in five years. But that number made Goulette stop speaking again. “Forty thousand acres? Is that meaningful?” That answer, obviously, is no.

 

[gerntz]

Article that I found interesting about possible issues behind the California fires. I don’t pretend to know how true these thoughts are. And I don’t want to trigger any disagreements to cause thread tangents. Take it or leave it. Just sharing cause the article seemed well written.


https://www.propublica.org/article/...tm0KQZXa91rNWxsytAlyjUUJcTY86Y2VABgs_qVoCB7BQ

Makes too much sense.

 

[oldphd]

Article that I found interesting about possible issues behind the California fires. I don’t pretend to know how true these thoughts are. And I don’t want to trigger any disagreements to cause thread tangents. Take it or leave it. Just sharing cause the article seemed well written.


https://www.propublica.org/article/...tm0KQZXa91rNWxsytAlyjUUJcTY86Y2VABgs_qVoCB7BQ

There was a fire west of Fort Collins, CO, in 2012 called the High Park Fire. Currently there is one called the Cameron Peak Fire that is north and west of that one, but kinda sorta in the vicinity.

While I don't have a link, I do recall reading an article in 2012 where they discussed the amount of "fuel" on the ground in certain locations that hadn't burned in a long time. There was one area that was not very accessible due to steep terrain, which also means no trails, etc. They measured the depth of old pine needles and other natural debris at 4 feet. Yes, that's feet. I remember it because I was shocked that could happen despite natural decay. Even if it's just one really bad spot, I still find it shocking that much could accumulate anywhere.

 

[kimcdougc]

I live in Washington state a little SW of Olympia. The smoke has been in the hazardous stage for yesterday and today. We stocked up early yesterday with food etc. They said today would be worse and it is. We are at 375 as far as air quality and that is considered hazardous.

We moved to the Washington state area in 1997 and retired on a little lake here. We never had smoke like this until about 4 years ago.

It is just horrible how many people have been displaced. The worst part is the news said that most of the fires in Washington were human started. Praying for all involved.

 

[Fermion]

We are north of Spokane and our air quality just hit 299 or something and is getting worse by the minute. It is twilight at 3pm

 

[travelover]

I live just north of Portland and visibility this AM was about 200 feet. Fortunately, air inside is not too bad, but a dog walk around the block with N95 mask on leaves clothes reeking like a night around a campfire. I have a couple of box fans running inside with a MERV 12 furnace air filter on one side to try to clean the inside air.

 

[kimcdougc]

We have a heat pump which recirculates the inside air. Inside has been fine. It smells like 100 wood campfires going in close proximity outside.

 

[Midpack]

While I don't have a link, I do recall reading an article in 2012 where they discussed the amount of "fuel" on the ground in certain locations that hadn't burned in a long time. There was one area that was not very accessible due to steep terrain, which also means no trails, etc. They measured the depth of old pine needles and other natural debris at 4 feet. Yes, that's feet. I remember it because I was shocked that could happen despite natural decay. Even if it's just one really bad spot, I still find it shocking that much could accumulate anywhere.

+1, I had no idea that much could accumulate, I’ve never seen that much accumulation in regions I’ve lived in - Midwest, South, Southeast, Northeast. No wonder the fires are so massive and hard to fight.

 

[RAE]

I worked for the US Forest Service for 31+ years, and have a fair amount of experience fighting wildland fires. The article posted by MuirWannabe has a lot of truth to it. The Forest Service and the state wildfire agencies have generally followed a policy of suppressing all (or at least most) wildfires for 70+ years now, but there are a lot of reasons that policy exists (and it's not science........science would dictate that many of these fires be allowed to let burn, especially in areas like California, since that is what would happen without man's influence). BUT - If the Forest Service were to suggest letting some wildfires burn - especially those anywhere near people live - you can imagine the outcry and the political ramifications that would occur. The first time a fire was allowed to burn, resulting in a bunch of expensive homes being burned up (and it would happen, trust me), the political pressure would ramp up fast, and that would be the end of letting wildfires burn. And this situation has gotten worse in recent decades, with more and more people building homes in forested areas that are prone to burning periodically. People love to live in those scenic areas, and don't understand that there home is actually in the middle of a tinderbox. So, as a result, most fires have been suppressed when they should have been allowed to burn, allowing fuels to build up to unnatural levels on many thousands of acres throughout the West.

To add to the problem, climate change is now a reality, resulting in prolonged drought conditions, and higher-then-normal temperatures in California and other places, drying out these fuels and setting up the conditions for catastrophic wildfire, once there is an ignition source.

So..........it is a complex problem, folks, with no easy answers. As the article said, reducing fuels on a million + acres (actually many millions of acres, througout the West) through prescribed burns is just not feasible, and even if a significant number of those acres could somehow be treated, climate change is occurring (and getting worse), so the stage is still set for large, disastrous fires to ignite and burn in these areas.

Bottom line - without addressing climate change, any attempts to significantly reduce the fire hazard throughout the West are doomed to fail. In addition to that, though, we need to somehow find a way to let more wildfires burn, as nature intended, rather than trying to suppress all wildfires as soon as they start. I don't know how we do that, though,( in a country where people love to build big homes next to flammable forests) and neither does anyone else, which is why that part of the problem only gets worse.

 

[Fermion]

Now our air quality north of Spokane, WA is 537...and the chart only goes to 500.

Cough.

 

[MuirWannabe]

I worked for the US Forest Service for 31+ years, and have a fair amount of experience fighting wildland fires. The article posted by MuirWannabe has a lot of truth to it. The Forest Service and the state wildfire agencies have generally followed a policy of suppressing all (or at least most) wildfires for 70+ years now, but there are a lot of reasons that policy exists (and it's not science........science would dictate that many of these fires be allowed to let burn, especially in areas like California, since that is what would happen without man's influence). BUT - If the Forest Service were to suggest letting some wildfires burn - especially those anywhere near people live - you can imagine the outcry and the political ramifications that would occur. The first time a fire was allowed to burn, resulting in a bunch of expensive homes being burned up (and it would happen, trust me), the political pressure would ramp up fast, and that would be the end of letting wildfires burn. And this situation has gotten worse in recent decades, with more and more people building homes in forested areas that are prone to burning periodically. People love to live in those scenic areas, and don't understand that there home is actually in the middle of a tinderbox. So, as a result, most fires have been suppressed when they should have been allowed to burn, allowing fuels to build up to unnatural levels on many thousands of acres throughout the West.

To add to the problem, climate change is now a reality, resulting in prolonged drought conditions, and higher-then-normal temperatures in California and other places, drying out these fuels and setting up the conditions for catastrophic wildfire, once there is an ignition source.

So..........it is a complex problem, folks, with no easy answers. As the article said, reducing fuels on a million + acres (actually many millions of acres, througout the West) through prescribed burns is just not feasible, and even if a significant number of those acres could somehow be treated, climate change is occurring (and getting worse), so the stage is still set for large, disastrous fires to ignite and burn in these areas.

Bottom line - without addressing climate change, any attempts to significantly reduce the fire hazard throughout the West are doomed to fail. In addition to that, though, we need to somehow find a way to let more wildfires burn, as nature intended, rather than trying to suppress all wildfires as soon as they start. I don't know how we do that, though,( in a country where people love to build big homes next to flammable forests) and neither does anyone else, which is why that part of the problem only gets worse.

RAE,
I appreciate you sharing your real life experience. It is a difficult (perhaps impossible) problem to solve on both fronts you mention. Which makes me very sad for the future of the beautiful creation getting destroyed. I only hope providence will gift better results in the future. Thanks for your past efforts in fighting these wildfires. And God bless those thousands of firefighters battling the multitude of fires currently raging.
Muir

 

[Brat]

There will be a time that Forest Park lights up..

I have been watching a homeless camp nesteled at the edge of the forest at the intersection of Highway 30 and St. Helen's Road for a couple months. They have a lot of 'scrounged' (aka stolen) stuff, one of which was a bbq. It wouldn't take much.

 

[skipro33]

My AQI meter on my home weather station topped out today at 587. The scale is supposed to top out at 500.5 so I guess the air is thick enough to cut with a knife. It's 11:30pm now and the cooler night air has the smoke moving back down the mountain I live on into the valley so the air quality improved to 340.
https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipOMajmE7FvNobdnOOyWAaECL936NPRu6qJ84ql_

 

[Koolau]

I can't imagine what the heavy wood smoke is like. Last major eruption of Kilauea, we had several days of volcanic smoke from 200 miles away. Rather than brown, the smoke is blue. Reminds me of the Smokey Mountains. The bad thing was the sulfur dioxide which really works on the throat and eyes. Let's hope this all ends soon.

 

[Midpack]

Bottom line - without addressing climate change, any attempts to significantly reduce the fire hazard throughout the West are doomed to fail. In addition to that, though, we need to somehow find a way to let more wildfires burn, as nature intended, rather than trying to suppress all wildfires as soon as they start. I don't know how we do that, though,( in a country where people love to build big homes next to flammable forests) and neither does anyone else, which is why that part of the problem only gets worse.

So it’s similar to rebuilding in flood zones. As long as insurance, FEMA and/or other relief funds cover rebuilding in fire/flood prone areas, people are going to rebuild where they probably shouldn’t. And the rest of us get to subsidize/pay for it like it or not, even those who deliberately avoid fire/flood/hurricane/earthquake zones...

 

[tmm99]

The photo link seems to be broken.

My AQI meter on my home weather station topped out today at 587. The scale is supposed to top out at 500.5 so I guess the air is thick enough to cut with a knife. It's 11:30pm now and the cooler night air has the smoke moving back down the mountain I live on into the valley so the air quality improved to 340.
https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipOMajmE7FvNobdnOOyWAaECL936NPRu6qJ84ql_

 

[RAE]

So it’s similar to rebuilding in flood zones. As long as insurance and/or FEMA funds cover rebuilding in fire/flood prone areas, people are going to rebuild. And the rest of us get to pay for it like it or not, even those who deliberately avoid fire/flood/hurricane/earthquake zones...

Right, taxpayers get to pay for fire protection for these homes, since the Forest Service and the state agencies pretty much have to try to protect them. Recently, though, conditions have become so extreme that nobody can protect homes in some of these areas when the winds kick up, so anyone living there is putting themsef in a very perilous situation, whether they realize it or not.

 

[freetodream]

From another retired mid-west forester: There is another reason why fuel-build-up on the forest floor has increased so dramatically in many western states. It is because logging has been shut down in many locations. Logging mature trees and regenerating those harvested sites eliminates or greatly reduces the fuel build up, reduces the impact of wildfires and utilizes the forest resource.

 

[KCGeezer]

I found this analysis of the timber industry and it seems to be a pretty thorough. As with most things, it appears it’s not a simple sound bite explanation of root causes for how forests can and should be managed.


https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr624.pdf

 

[pacergal]

Air quality 410 here this morning.
I can barely see the neighbors house.
Luckily, the evacuation line has been moved back and now in level one.
Cooler temps and rain on the way--hopefully!

 

[Fermion]

Holy cow, I went to wal-mart this morning and they actually had a air purifer in stock (just one and I think they had just put it out this morning). Score!

 

[Chuckanut]

iqair.com


This site will give folks an idea of how bad the air is in major cities. According to the site Portland, Vancouver B.C. and Seattle are the three worst cities at the moment.

 

[Big_Hitter]

It's bad - the air quality here (about 60 miles E of Oregon) is terrible today.

 

[skipro33]

The photo link seems to be broken.

Thanks. Does this one work?