When is enough , enough?

[brett]

We did our numbers essentially on the back on an envelope 12 or 13 years ago.

What I did have was a tape on our prior three years of after tax spend while working.

The twelve year outcome. Our after tax spend was within +- 10 percent each year. Mostly due to lumpy travel expenses paid in advance. Overall miraculously spot on.

Inflation was less than we estimated, investment returns a little higher than our conservative finger in the air estimate.

Equity...our equity has more than doubled during that period. We did not expect this.

We made significant changes in our lifestyle and home. Traveled more than we thought we would.

Do not know if it is down to common sense and being conservative in our approach or to dumb luck. Financial advisor says the former.

He claims his approach to the numbers is similar. Common sense, conservative, and leave some room for errors and omissions. One advantage for us is that health care costs not a concern. Dental OTOH....

 

[HMMY]

Enough is when you can buy anything you want but not everything you want. For those who want little, enough comes much sooner than those with extravagant wants.

 

[zippy2020]

Saving starts from fear. Then it becomes a habit. And like smoking, it isn't easy to break a habit, especially since having the security of enough $$$$$$$ gets emotionally tied to your sense of well-being.

Many people feel the same as you do. You have invested a great deal of effort, time, and self-discipline to protect yourself from "What Might Happen?"

Understand that it's hard to break what is not only a long-established habit, but also a behavior that is tied to your 'sense of self'.

"Sufficient money = Strong. Insufficient money = Weak."

But you are, like all the rest of us, more than just a series of $$$$$$, right? Money that just sits there does no one any harm, but it doesn't do anyone any good, either.

Money can't buy you love nor earn you respect. But kindness and compassion can pay great dividends in someone else's life. You may never see the direct results, but it's worth knowing you maybe made a difference, even in a small way.

 

[Healthy Lifestyle]

Enough is never enough.

When I was younger, I learned that the purpose of money was to make more money. For retirement, an emergency, etc. You never know how much money you're going to need in the future, so you spend little and work a lot to build a stash.


I did this for 40 working years, and now 10 years into retirement, these habits are tough to break. I'm starting to loosen up a little on spending, but I still want the stash to grow.

I grew up with a similar mind set, as I was raised by depression era parents who struggled to raise a large family. I have saved probably too much and still turning off the lights and finishing my dinner.

 

[Texas Proud]

Well, it is not enough for me as I did not win the lottery
Time to waste another few bucks tomorrow...

 

[Koolau]

Enough is never enough.

When I was younger, I learned that the purpose of money was to make more money. For retirement, an emergency, etc. You never know how much money you're going to need in the future, so you spend little and work a lot to build a stash.


I did this for 40 working years, and now 10 years into retirement, these habits are tough to break. I'm starting to loosen up a little on spending, but I still want the stash to grow.

As I look back over the past few years, now, I realize this is pretty much where I am as well. I want to spend/give away my money before I pass BUT (and here is the diabolical part) I STILL want to see the stash grow! Talk about financial schizophrenia.

 

[jollystomper]

Saving starts from fear. Then it becomes a habit. And like smoking, it isn't easy to break a habit, especially since having the security of enough $$$$$$$ gets emotionally tied to your sense of well-being

I think it depends on whether or not you are saving with a goal in mind, or saving just for the purpose of saving. I never met a smoker who had a goal in mind for their smoking habit, like "I intend to smoke at least a pack a day for the next X years" .

Our savings habit was relatively easy to break once we achieved the target goal. For me the retirement goal was "I need need to have at least $2M in cash and investable assets, with "a buffer" on top of that, and enough cash to cover the delta between my pension and our planned lifestyle for the first 5 years of retirement". Once that savings goal was reached, breaking the savings habit was relatively easy.

The "strange" thing is that, though we are not trying to save, we still have a lot more than when I retired 5 years ago. Once you have a year our 2 of not working but seeing what you have put away still growing, it helps bring to reality the "having enough" concept, in my view .

 

[Koolau]

I think it depends on whether or not you are saving with a goal in mind, or saving just for the purpose of saving. I never met a smoker who had a goal in mind for their smoking habit, like "I intend to smoke at least a pack a day for the next X years" .

Our savings habit was relatively easy to break once we achieved the target goal. For me the retirement goal was "I need need to have at least $2M in cash and investable assets, with "a buffer" on top of that, and enough cash to cover the delta between my pension and our planned lifestyle for the first 5 years of retirement". Once that savings goal was reached, breaking the savings habit was relatively easy.

The "strange" thing is that, though we are not trying to save, we still have a lot more than when I retired 5 years ago. Once you have a year our 2 of not working but seeing what you have put away still growing, it helps bring to reality the "having enough" concept, in my view .

I totally agree. And though I had some "numerical" goals before FIRE, I didn't put the goals into words as you have done for your plan (5 and more years ago.) It's only after I retired that I used the new perspective (no pay check coming in - but the stash is still growing after my spending) to conclude that I have "enough." A plan (with goals) is much better (IMO) than just "save, save, save and more, more more." Next time - well, never mind....

 

[Closet_Gamer]

I've not entered burn down mode yet, so I don't know how I will really feel when I get there. We got to where we are through a combination of hard work, saving and diligent investing. Yes, I still compare the price of brand name pickles to store brand and beat myself up a bit when I go to the local/expensive grocery store rather than driving a bit further to the big chain.

All that said, i've always believed that money is a tool. Its fun to watch the counter spin as the stash grows, but ultimately money is a means to various ends and not an end unto itself. It must have purpose.

I use the mental accounting trick of having multiple accounts for different purposes.

Account A = Retirement
Account B = Big Future Expenses (eg., wedding, house maintenance & cars)
Account C = Money for Extended Family Help
Account D = Charity (donor advised charitable trust)

I keep an investment strategy within each account that is appropriate to its purpose.

We also have a budget that includes our discretionary and fun things. So long as accounts A through D are on track for their purpose, I don't stress AT ALL about the discretionary money we spend each month.

The downside of my approach is that I'm overly conservative in my investment strategy across the accounts. The items in B and C are unlikely to actually all occur at the same time so I could be a bit more aggressive.

But i like the trade off. It allows me to quickly glance at the landscape and see we are in good order to achieve what we want to do.

Then I hop in my car, buy the good pickles, play some golf, and have a nice dinner out with DW.

(But I won't buy the good pickles at the local grocery ... that's just a road too far for me. )

 

[Car-Guy]

I never met a smoker who had a goal in mind for their smoking habit, like "I intend to smoke at least a pack a day for the next X years" .

Well that's me, sort of. I quit smoking almost 40 years ago and still miss it. Although not as much as I once did. I am thinking about starting up again but keeping to a pack a week. (That's the trick - just a pack a week or 3 cigarettes day) until my final days. DW is okay with it, as long as I smoke outside which seems reasonable to me.

Our savings habit was relatively easy to break once we achieved the target goal. For me the retirement goal was "I need need to have at least $2M in cash and investable assets, with "a buffer" on top of that, and enough cash to cover the delta between my pension and our planned lifestyle for the first 5 years of retirement". Once that savings goal was reached, breaking the savings habit was relatively easy.

That would make you wealthy.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/wealthy-net-worth-considered-poor-190014440.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

 

[jollystomper]

That would make you wealthy.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/wealthy-net-worth-considered-poor-190014440.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Which is why I have enough .

 

[tmitchell]

Once I realized I'd never have enough I was satisfied. I gave up on the idea and quit my day job

 

[marko]

I've not entered burn down mode yet, so I don't know how I will really feel when I get there.

The very real problem however is that, as many have noted in other threads, there is no "burn down".

For many here, myself included despite DWs best efforts, our balances are far more today than on our first day of retirement.

 

[Retired Expat]

My favorite line

I live by the saying, “I’m not a rich man, I am a poor man with money”. But this poor man lives very well and is really enjoying his retirement. We definitely have enough!

I also routinely tell people that we live paycheck to paycheck…. But aren’t you retired? They ask? Well it means we never spend more than what comes in and we aren’t spending down the principal that is generating income…. So our savings will support us indefinitely and in truth the investments actually continue to grow since a healthy share is in Real Estate.

My dilemma now is do I take SS at FRA or wait until 70? Sure at 70 it would be more but based on our spending habits and philosophy we would probably enjoy it more sooner than later? Despite that we don’t need it, would it be better to gift more now or later? Bump up to First class from Business, take one more trip a year when truly we are already thinking about being more at home?

 

[HI Bill]

My problem is that as the stash grows, so does my spending, at least for now. I am pretty much happy with our house, but it could have several remodels to make it better, and it could have a better view. I could buy a couple of cars, and travel first class (I don't think my wife would go along with that). I think growing up poor, and living as if I was poor in my pre-FIRE days, has me yearning to live 'the good life'. I'm enjoying our current level of spend, and once we're done with car and house stuff, travel will hopefully continue for a decade. But I foresee a time in our 70s where health, desire to travel, and spending all take a tumble simultaneously.

 

[Onda]

I have plenty but not enough

Now getting close to 59 I think risk is in running out of time not out of money. Yet I have not enough.

 

[SecondCor521]

My dilemma now is do I take SS at FRA or wait until 70? Sure at 70 it would be more but based on our spending habits and philosophy we would probably enjoy it more sooner than later? Despite that we don’t need it, would it be better to gift more now or later? Bump up to First class from Business, take one more trip a year when truly we are already thinking about being more at home?

Are you assuming that only SS dollars can be spent on fun stuff?

I think @pb4uski regularly comments that when dollars are fungible (which here implies you won't run out of non-SS spendable dollars before claiming SS), you can spend more now on fun stuff from your non-SS spendable dollars, then replace them with more post-70 SS dollars and come out ahead.

This idea might require some mental fortitude.

Of course, if you spend "too much" of your non-SS on fun stuff and find yourself running out, you could always claim SS then (assuming you're at least 62 at that point).

 

[Retired Expat]

Are you assuming that only SS dollars can be spent on fun stuff?

I think @pb4uski regularly comments that when dollars are fungible (which here implies you won't run out of non-SS spendable dollars before claiming SS), you can spend more now on fun stuff from your non-SS spendable dollars, then replace them with more post-70 SS dollars and come out ahead.

This idea might require some mental fortitude.

Of course, if you spend "too much" of your non-SS on fun stuff and find yourself running out, you could always claim SS then (assuming you're at least 62 at that point).

No no not at all spending on Fun stuff all the time. Travel a great deal and 100% living the life. Just that SS would make it 110%. As I posted somewhere I only spend income not principal so no withdrawals yet and NW stays above the goal mark I had set for myself a 1/2 century ago…

 

[Closet_Gamer]

The very real problem however is that, as many have noted in other threads, there is no "burn down".

For many here, myself included despite DWs best efforts, our balances are far more today than on our first day of retirement.

Understood. I guess what was on my mind is whether I will become more conservative once there isn't "new" money coming in from a paycheck. Its easy to be confident about spending when there is still money flowing into the system.


Will I suddenly find myself buying the cheap pickles again??

 

[DuluthGA]

I’m like most of us on here. Hard to go from saver to spender. Maybe increasing spending is like it was with saving,. Start with what you’re comfortable with then increase it regularly. Set goals each year. Ie: I’m going to only fly business or first in 2025. I’ll try to upgrade one of the two international trips in 2024 already booked.
That and be a giver. Volunteer somewhere and give there. Most of the world did not make the choices or have the opportunities we did and are barely getting by. I volunteer weekly in a food pantry and see it first hand. So many homeless, living in cars, tents and so many working poor. Jesus said the poor and needy will always be with us and also said whatever we do to “the least of these” we do to him.
Merry Christmas!

 

[Major Tom]

Understood. I guess what was on my mind is whether I will become more conservative once there isn't "new" money coming in from a paycheck. Its easy to be confident about spending when there is still money flowing into the system.

That's a good way to express it. I felt similarly when I stopped working. However, I was lucky enough to retire at the beginning of a rather long bull run. Today, 13 or 14 years later, even after all the spending from my portfolio, I still have twice as much as I started out with. At some point, I realized that I didn't need new money flowing into the system, because my "closed system" (note the quote marks) was generating plenty of "new money" all by itself.

 

[marko]

Understood. I guess what was on my mind is whether I will become more conservative once there isn't "new" money coming in from a paycheck. Its easy to be confident about spending when there is still money flowing into the system.


Will I suddenly find myself buying the cheap pickles again??

Maybe at first. But over a few years you'll be able to see that "bills are getting paid and there’s more money at the end of the year than there was at the start of the year" and you'll start looking for the really expensive pickles.

 

[brett]

I had one or two colleagues who never had enough.

They watched their stock options grow in value and they failed to prudently exercise them.

Then they watched them gradually sink in value, hoping for the glory days to return before they expired.

To the point where most had either expired or were under water, or both.

 

[Closet_Gamer]

I had one or two colleagues who never had enough.

They watched their stock options grow in value and they failed to prudently exercise them.

Then they watched them gradually sink in value, hoping for the glory days to return before they expired.

To the point where most had either expired or were under water, or both.

That's sad. I'm watching some people go through another version of that.

They never sold options along the way. Today company's stock is way down ... and now they are getting laid off. When that happens you have 90 days to cash out vested options and everything else gets canceled. They aren't able to "wait for it to come back."

 

[Closet_Gamer]

Maybe at first. But over a few years you'll be able to see that "bills are getting paid and there’s more money at the end of the year than there was at the start of the year" and you'll start looking for the really expensive pickles.

I do love a good pickle. One of the delis near us has a pickle bar when you buy lunch or dinner. Worth the price of the dinner all on its own!