Whole house generator

[austin944]

I lost power for 2 days during the Texas storm, and I could have lasted at least a week without power.

I had a 40F-rated down sleeping bag and a huge down winter jacket to keep me warm. I never felt cold even when the inside got down to 42F.

I kept ice in the freezer section, and my chicken and fish remained semi-frozen. The food in the lower section of the fridge was warmer but did not spoil. Even if it did spoil, I had plenty of dried food as backup. More ice was available by freezing water outside.

My internet was down, but I got news from the radio and neighbors. For entertainment I relied on books, taking walks, and pushing peoples' cars out of the snow and ice.

I would use the generator as a backup survival method, rather than a primary survival method. Of course you may have other needs that can't be satisfied without power, and so would require a generator.

 

[NW-Bound]

Generators, even whole-house ones, are not that expensive compared to the solar+battery combination, provided that you can be assured of a reliable fuel source. Generators gobble up fuel like crazy.

On the other hand, the solar+battery combination is expensive, and may not be a good choice for many locations due to the climate condition, or at hurricane-prone locations. But for people in the West, particularly California where electricity is expensive and the grid is unreliable, it is a good choice as it helps with your monthly utility bills during normal times, and is not just a lifesaver in a crisis.

My system is DIY, but I am very much interested in the battery technology, and how the price drops with time. There are some offerings in the market now besides Tesla. They may not be as slick, but less expensive.

If you are technically inclined, may even put a system together yourself and save on the installation cost. There are turn-key systems ready to install yourself, but it is now not hard to cobble up a system from off-the-shelf components. The biggest thing to pay attention to is the battery.

Everyone knows that lithium batteries can explode in a fireball if abused. The type safest for home use is the lithium-iron-phosphate type (LiFePO4), which usually does not explode, but is simply ruined if abused. To help with that, there are battery subsystems now that have a built-in BMS (battery management system) which protects the cells against overcharge, overdischarge, charging in a low temperature, and also unbalancing between cells. For examples, look at bigbattery-dot-com.

All these turn-key or off-the-shelf components are selling well because of the grid situation in California. For info and examples on how to put together a system, one can peruse the Web and youtube. The biggest danger for even a technically-oriented DIY'er is when he does not know that he doesn't know, and what he does not know is dangerous or costly. Even as an electrical/electronic engineer, I was originally ignorant about many things, and learned by researching and experimenting myself.

 

[NW-Bound]

I forgot to add that a whole-house "solar+storage" system is out-of-reach for many people, due to cost and space constraint. However, a smaller system to keep the fridge, lighting, and electronics going is well within reach for most home owners.

Even for a townhome dweller who cannot have solar panels on the roof, a battery+inverter/charger combination will keep the lights on and the fridge running. It will cost a few $K, which is more than a small Honda generator, but is quiet and takes even less maintenance.

 

[NW-Bound]

For people who just want something ready-to-go, there are now self-contained units commonly called "solar generators". They are typically a cube the size of a portable gasoline generator, and incorporate the following components: lithium cells with BMS, solar charger, AC charger, and an inverter.

The price of course varies with the battery storage capacity. A 2kWh unit will run about $2K. It can keep your fridge going for 24 hours.

A nice thing about this type of units is that anybody can use it. To use it with a couple of solar panels, just plug the latter in. In an emergency, throw these panels out in the sun in the backyard, on top of your roof, out on the driveway, wherever. You don't have solar panels? Then, start looking for them on eBay.

A 300W panel the size of 64"x41" can be had for $100-150. They are used (removed from commercial or industrial installations). I have bought them, and have not had a bad panel from a reputable local seller. I also have some brand-new panels, and have not seen much difference in output between the new ones and the used ones that were 5-10 years old.

An example of a portable "solar generator" is the following. I show it just as an example. A buyer would do well to research the product quality and maker's reputation before plunking down the cash.

A 2kWh solar generator coupled with 2 or 3 solar panels will keep your fridge+lighting going indefinitely as long as you have adequate sunshine. No worry about running out of fuel.

Note that portable solar generators also find use when you go camping or RV'ing.

 

[Nick12]

An old friend used to work for Kohler's generator division. He held Generac in pretty low regard. The company has several assembly plants around here in small towns where pay scales are low. Glassdoor.com reports average wage for assemblers is $15/hour. You get what you pay for.

I disagree. My Generac 16KW is a workhorse. Customer service is excellent and our installer is also the same annual maintenance techs when it comes to service and or if the unit runs for three days straight, they come when we call them for the mandatory oil change. FYI - Kohler is made in China. Generac is made in Wisconsin. I buy American. I doubt the China pay scales are similar to USA pay scales.

 

[skyking1]

We never went there. I have always had Honda portables for camping, and just drag a cord in for the fridge in the house, some lights, and the freezer in the garage. if it is too cold we retire to the RV with the handy propane furnace and heated mattress pad.
Now i have a pair of the EU2000i inverters. 46 pounds each and easy to move, and super easy on fuel. The last outage was about 50 hours, and I filled the 1 gallon tank 4 times to keep our food from spoiling, on one generator.
We do want a new home and it will be wired from the start with a proper transfer switch.
I also want a hybrid house electrical system. I want all the lighting to be DC with a modest bank of batteries and a pair of dedicated solar panels. This way, the one thing that you immediately miss is the working light switch in every room, and they will work!
The rest of the roof will have grid-tied solar panels.
I will probably opt for a trailer mount diesel genset there, to provide plenty of power for the house and shop.

 

[SumDay]

We went with a Generac 9-22 kw Guardian series. It was $10K and when that sucker kicked on Monday during the first rolling black out and it was well below zero, I yelled "that's the best $10K we ever spent!". It's loud, and I imagine the neighbor hates it/us, but so far so good.

That said, as someone mentioned earlier, the blackouts were caused by a gas shortage, and I felt guilty while it was running. We're going to have to figure out how to turn it off in the event something more drastic occurs in the future.

DH is on a prepper board (just for fun) and the true preppers also have a tank buried in their yard for fuel, in addition to being hooked up to the grid.

I'm seriously considering buying a kerosene heater and a couple of tents to put on our mattresses (saw this as a tip from a Texas friend), just in case the $hit really hits the fan.

I agree with everything Nick said above. #BuyAmerican

 

[NW-Bound]

I also want a hybrid house electrical system. I want all the lighting to be DC with a modest bank of batteries and a pair of dedicated solar panels. This way, the one thing that you immediately miss is the working light switch in every room, and they will work!

With energy-efficient LED lights, I don't think there is a need for a separate DC system. Modern inverters are also efficient. For example, the Xantrex 1,800W inverter that I installed in my motorhome draws a mere 6W when idling with no load. That's the same as an incandescent night bulb.

So, it's simpler to run the lights on AC, but keep them separate from other circuits to be powered by the backup system as needed.

 

[MarieIG]

Hmmm; this is going back, but I had DH buy a whole-house generator for DF's house when DF became paralyzed. I wasn't taking a chance. IIRC, it was north of 4k. Seemed to me to be loud as a plane.

 

[pacergal]

Great thread! We just came back on line with power after 6 days, longest time ever.(neighbors 60 year old out of control tree dropped a huge limb on a power line during the ice/snow storm--don't get me started on that! Same tree knocked out power a few months ago during a wind storm :-/ )
We have a fireplace insert wood stove for heat and a butane camp-stove, plus battery and solar/wind up radio and lanterns, so we do OK. But a generator sure would be nice!
We have considered a whole house generator in the past, after the last 4 day stint a few years ago, but didn't follow through.

 

[skyking1]

With energy-efficient LED lights, I don't think there is a need for a separate DC system. Modern inverters are also efficient. For example, the Xantrex 1,800W inverter that I installed in my motorhome draws a mere 6W when idling with no load. That's the same as an incandescent night bulb.

So, it's simpler to run the lights on AC, but keep them separate from other circuits to be powered by the backup system as needed.

you may not think so, but the science of it chaps my hide. LED lights are DC, and the power gets converted to DC at the light. I don't want an inverter/converter cycle in there. I am talking about true DC LED lights.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

The problem we experienced in getting gasoline for our generator was the gas stations with back-up generators were overwhelmed with demand and ran out within a day or two. Refineries/fuel farms were closed down due to lack of power, and roads were impassable for resupply due to icy conditions. Literally a "perfect storm".

All good points. I guess all we can do is try and plan as best as we can...and hope for the best. I don't know that there is any one *perfect* plan.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

An old friend used to work for Kohler's generator division. He held Generac in pretty low regard. The company has several assembly plants around here in small towns where pay scales are low. Glassdoor.com reports average wage for assemblers is $15/hour. You get what you pay for.

There seems to be a lot of hate for Generac but our hood has no less than 15 of them installed and as far as I know...NOT A SINGLE ONE had an issue during our 10+ day outage a couple of months ago. If I were to upgrade, I would have ZERO issue dropping $15K on one (installed).

 

[Tetto]

We installed a 20kw Generac automatic system for our house about two months ago. The day the town inspected the installation and it went online, we lost power for 9 hours the very next day from a storm. I was giddy hearing that thing start right up! Got. 500 gal propane tank and it should run my house nonstop for 7-9 days, depending on the load. Huge piece of mind. Put one in my parents house as well. Now I don’t have a worry in the world regarding power. It’s really great

 

[Nick12]

Hmmm; this is going back, but I had DH buy a whole-house generator for DF's house when DF became paralyzed. I wasn't taking a chance. IIRC, it was north of 4k. Seemed to me to be loud as a plane.

You're not kidding. My Generac 16KW is so loud the whole street can hear it and we have to wear earplugs to sleep but the unit does its job!

 

[marko]

If price is no object (Blow that Dough!) then certainly go for the whole house Generac. However, if you're looking for a good, practical, cost effective solution, pick up a quality generator and get a transfer switch...you don't want to be running extension cords from the generator all over the house.

So I have a technical question on this: why couldn't you run just one extension cord, modified with a prong at each end and plug it into any random outlet. Wouldn't that supply power to the whole house?

Yes, I know you wouldn't want to run everything off of it because of load, and I'm sure there's other safety issues, but wouldn't that essentially bring power to every outlet in the house?

I'm not endorsing it but wondering if it would even work?

 

[Freedom56]

So I have a technical question on this: why couldn't you run just one extension cord, modified with a prong at each end and plug it into any random outlet. Wouldn't that supply power to the whole house?

Yes, I know you wouldn't want to run everything off of it because of load, and I'm sure there's other safety issues, but wouldn't that essentially bring power to every outlet in the house?

I'm not endorsing it but wondering if it would even work?

No... Outlets in your home are assigned to a single circuit tied to a single breaker in your main panel.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

So I have a technical question on this: why couldn't you run just one extension cord, modified with a prong at each end and plug it into any random outlet. Wouldn't that supply power to the whole house?

Yes, I know you wouldn't want to run everything off of it because of load, and I'm sure there's other safety issues, but wouldn't that essentially bring power to every outlet in the house?

I'm not endorsing it but wondering if it would even work?

It might work and if you don't know what you are doing, you could kill a lineman down the road.

 

[marko]

No... Outlets in your home are assigned to a single circuit tied to a single breaker in your main panel.

It might work and if you don't know what you are doing, you could kill a lineman down the road.

Thanks. As noted, it was more of an idle question than something I'd ever consider.

 

[Out of Steam]

We installed natural gas in our house with the idea of getting a whole house generator. Right now, we are using it only for cooking and the furnace in a dual fuel setup (since we had a heat pump).

Is it worth moving our water heating over to natural gas to reduce the size of generator needed? Or, is the price difference between generator sizes not enough to bother?

Electric water heater is 10-12 years old, but the sacrificial anode appeared to have been changed once before I did it last year. So, we'll need to change the water heater in the next several years, but not urgently.

 

[Ronstar]

You're not kidding. My Generac 16KW is so loud the whole street can hear it and we have to wear earplugs to sleep but the unit does its job!

Wow. My Generac 16kw is so quiet I can’t tell if it’s on when I’m indoors.

 

[splitwdw]

... If the generator is covered in snow, you must dig it out to ensure that the vents on the unit are clear of snow. If the unit is not clear of snow and the generator runs, you can breathe the carbon monoxide going into the house and that could prove to be fatal.

Why do you think that carbon monoxide is going in your house? This must be a setup that I'm not familiar with in our area.

 

[Jerry1]

No... Outlets in your home are assigned to a single circuit tied to a single breaker in your main panel.

I think that the current would pass through that circuit and power the entire panel.

It might work and if you don't know what you are doing, you could kill a lineman down the road.

Yep - dangerous for sure.

Thanks. As noted, it was more of an idle question than something I'd ever consider.

My understanding is that it would work - according to an electrician friend of mine. However, as noted, you could feed back into the grid and hurt/kill someone. So, if you're desperate enough to do this, pull the meter. When you pull the meter, you disconnect the house from the grid. Not something I would do or recommend.

 

[jimbee]

So I have a technical question on this: why couldn't you run just one extension cord, modified with a prong at each end and plug it into any random outlet. Wouldn't that supply power to the whole house?

Yes, I know you wouldn't want to run everything off of it because of load, and I'm sure there's other safety issues, but wouldn't that essentially bring power to every outlet in the house?

I'm not endorsing it but wondering if it would even work?

Yeah, it will work, but it isn't a good idea. You have to know what you are doing, and even if you do, you might make a mistake and hurt a line electrician working on service restoration. The main circuit breaker for electric service must be opened first so this doesn't happen.

We used to call cords with two male ends "suicide cords". Can you guess why?

It will work best connecting to a 240 V receptacle so you energize both legs of your distribution panel. You can back feed electricity within the limits of the circuit breaker that serves the 240 V receptacle. You also need to open the breakers on branch circuits of loads not used, so you don't overload the breaker used for back feed.

Much safer to install a proper transfer switch and generator receptacle, or a permanently installed generator system.

 

[kjpliny]

We bought a Honda EU7000is, which powers the whole house with the exception of our 4-ton AC unit. There is a 240V 30A input on the side of the house, wired into the load center using a dedicated breaker and interlock kit. This generator is fuel injected, has a built in inverter which outputs a perfect sine wave, and is extremely quiet. In eco mode (reduces the RPM from 3600 to 2400), it can run up to 18 hours on a tank of gas (5 gal). We needed it this past summer for a 3 day outage and it worked perfectly. The Hondas are expensive, but you get what you pay for...quality and reliability. For even more power, they can be run in parallel:

If we needed even more output, I'd get a Cummins RS25 which is liquid cooled and runs at 1800 RPM. For longer outages, you don't want to run those high RPM air cooled models...they're loud and aren't built to run for extended periods.