Young'uns looking to RE

I do not hate my job. But I need to be FI before I get the boot.

Not many people retire from my career at 'normal' retirement age - they get laid off at 45-55! We have 1-2 rounds of layoffs PER YEAR, and when my time has come, I plan to sit on a huge pile of money. I've seen too many 50 year olds losing their job, with negligible savings, being unable to find another one that pays nearly the same money. No one hires people that 'old' these days.

When that happens to me, I do not want to be stressed about unemployment pay, or job interviews, or how I will afford to send the kids to college. THIS is why I'm saving like crazy while I can.
 
[...] worked seven days a week for 20+ years. [...] away from home 200 days a year [...] Health problems [...]

Now I'm starting to feel sorry for YOU. Glad you made it out alive, and I hope you have a long, happy retirement.
 
Now I'm starting to feel sorry for YOU. Glad you made it out alive, and I hope you have a long, happy retirement.

Appreciate the sentiment, but don't feel bad for me. I'm more than good.
Got out alive as you say. Ten years into RE.

The 200 days away from home were compensated by some really fantastic experiences...stuff most people don't even know exists; but did miss out on too many weddings, birthdays etc.

Health issues are quite manageable and nothing life threatening, but if I were still travelling, (esp internationally) it would have been harder to do.

It was just time to hang it up.
 
What stands out to me from the OP is a lesson I try to pass on to my friends still in their 20s... spend your money on experiences, not things. You will never regret the fond opportunities and experiences you embraced in your 20s and 30s. Learning to balance that with intelligent saving/investing and you'll have less regrets on both sides of the fence (living and saving) when you are too old to do either anymore.

Ask yourself if what you're spending money on today will always seem as valuable to you. If the answer is yes, and it fits your plan to FIRE... go do it!
 
As someone who first posted here at 23, I'll comment:

First, I don't personally know anybody who "loves" their work. People are happy to have a job, and they know their job could be worse, but they don't "love" it. In effect, I don't know anybody who dreads weekends or holidays, or feels excited on a Sunday evening at the thought of starting another work week. Did you? If not, are you sure you really loved it? If so, why did you ever retire early? Sounds like a contradiction.

Second, I think you are failing to imagine how other people have had different life experiences than your own. Maybe you did the "backpacking Europe" thing when you were 25, and then didn't start feeling satisfied with your professional accomplishments until much later. At 25 I was already four years (more if you count some education/training) into a deadly-serious and exhausting (albeit interesting) career, saddled with management responsibilities, while married and planning for kids. I don't think that's "missing out on life." By the time I'm 40+ I'm sure I'll feel more than ready for something less stressful, so I want to prepare things financially to have that option.

Tim

Very well put Tim. The whole find your passion/dream job meme is false for too many reasons to go into succinctly. However, reason in chief is that even if you are lucky enough to "love" your job, jobs, supervisors, co-workers, companies, circumstances change. I agree it's important to balance experiences with responsibility.

When I was as young as you I was never smart enough to even be on a board like this. I applaud/admire anyone in their 20's/30's thinking so long term. I didn't, and it cost me.
 
My view: There's a difference between being FI and RE. You SHOULD aim to be FI as soon as possible, but I feel bad for someone in their 20's who hates their job or just doesn't want to work.

I'm a young(er) forum member, joined at 35 now 37. I very much view it in this regard. We hope to be FI by Jan 1, 2020 (age 42 his, 39 hers) with enough to stop working then if we so choose. I doubt we will choose to do so, but we'd like to have that option. DW will likely work much longer as she loves what she does. I will likely seek a bridge career or take a year or two of "ER" to pursue a life dream, but a lot of that depends on other, non-financial stuff.

We'll see, but generally I agree. Aiming for FI at 40 is a great, worthy goal. I think I'd aim for FI then "do what I want" in terms of work. Being full-blown retired (as in never work for another dime) at 42 is probably not the route I'll take.

Bike mechanic, personal trainer, triathlon coach, sommelier - all on a part-time basis - appeal to me, but wouldn't pay nearly enough on their own without being FI. :cool:
 
I do agree with you that regardless of income and savings, we all realistically have to work for a long time to make it FI and retirement.
I, too, would encourage younger folks to enjoy life as it comes rather than put ALL their efforts into a faraway goal. That is the balance we all seek: how to live well today while planning to hopefully live well later.

There is, indeed, a balance. I made not-that-much in my 20s as a young officer, but still found a way to bank a good sum and spend a bit. We make more now in our 30s and are very fortunate. My wife shakes her head at our spending level until I reminder her what we spent on. It's not iPads and $200 dinners every week... it's travel, it's eye surgery, it's home improvements we want.

Two of the best expenditures I've ever made were also the two largest outside of houses and cars:

- I went to Super Bowl XLI spending $4500 on a game package including hotel, pre-game party, game tickets, NFL experience thing the day before... Believe it or not, totally worth it (once). Colts won too, so it was even better!

- DW and I took our 17-day honeymoon to Australia and Fiji. Cost us ~$17K when all was said and done and was worth every cent.

Might've made FI by 2020 tighter, but we'll never regret those choices. Not everyone has those opportunities, and we feel fortunate that we had them early enough in life to enjoy them!

So, to two overarching points here:

- Disagree that you can't RE unless you're saying no to $3000 vacations. You just have to have the means to do so and/or make the $3000 (or $5000 or $15000) vacation a special occurrence rather than an annual one. The key is LBYM. If a $15000 vacation is possible while still saving a good percentage of your pay, have at it. You don't have to save every cent to RE.

- Wholeheartedly agree with spending money on experiences. Those two extreme examples mean far more to me than my car or my iPad, and you only get to do this once.
 
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First, I don't personally know anybody who "loves" their work. People are happy to have a job, and they know their job could be worse, but they don't "love" it. In effect, I don't know anybody who dreads weekends or holidays, or feels excited on a Sunday evening at the thought of starting another work week. Did you? If not, are you sure you really loved it? If so, why did you ever retire early? Sounds like a contradiction.

I love my work, I'm often actively looking forward to going in and getting to make things I enjoy. This is part of why when I first got involved in the FIRE community my focus was on the FI part, not the RE part. :)
 
As Rich4444 observed, money is only a tool. Most discussions on this forum have something to do with honing that tool and using it efficiently, not hiding it in a tool chest. A big part of that is figuring out what is truly important to you, personally, and spending only on that - not being swayed by popular thinking on how to spend your money.

Many consider financial independence an honorable goal all by itself. Others see it as a way out of a working life which, no matter how prestigious, is making them feel like a trapped animal ready to gnaw off its leg.

Amethyst
 
We have always traveled as much as our vacation times allowed. Getting 3 weeks off a year was more of a limit than our budget. I just would look for bargain packages and half price hotel stays so travel was never a big enough budget item to make a difference in becoming FI either way. We don't live too far from Hawaii so that was always an economical choice for us with something like an Expedia package. For weekends we could either go car camping, river camping (pre-kids) or drive places like Yosemite, Lake Tahoe and San Diego so that didn't cost too much either. We often had annual passes to Disneyland, water parks, Six Flags and the state parks while the kids were growing up. The rest of the vacation time was spent on out of state or overseas family visits.

We had co-workers with the same household income who lived like jet setters, flying cross country for weekend trips regularly and they went broke. I would rather have had the more modest vacations like we did and financial security.
 
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What stands out to me from the OP is a lesson I try to pass on to my friends still in their 20s... spend your money on experiences, not things. You will never regret the fond opportunities and experiences you embraced in your 20s and 30s. Learning to balance that with intelligent saving/investing and you'll have less regrets on both sides of the fence (living and saving) when you are too old to do either anymore.

Ask yourself if what you're spending money on today will always seem as valuable to you. If the answer is yes, and it fits your plan to FIRE... go do it!

+1

I will never regret any of my travels, and I have been traveling since I was in college. By myself, with friends, boyfriends, and husband. But we don't drive expensive cars, and have lived in the our townhouse for 15 years etc....we want to reach our FIRE goals but enjoy life now too!
 
As Rich4444 observed, money is only a tool. Most discussions on this forum have something to do with honing that tool and using it efficiently, not hiding it in a tool chest. A big part of that is figuring out what is truly important to you, personally, and spending only on that - not being swayed by popular thinking on how to spend your money.

Many consider financial independence an honorable goal all by itself. Others see it as a way out of a working life which, no matter how prestigious, is making them feel like a trapped animal ready to gnaw off its leg.

Amethyst

I have always been jealous of those people who enjoy their jobs/careers. During my 35 or so years in the work force (several different types of jobs), probably 30 of them made me feel like a trapped animal.

It was quite difficult for us to "create experiences" when in our 20's and, I admit, much of it was our own fault. But when MegaOil gives you 2 weeks of vacation time for each of your first 10 years of work and there are grandparents to visit, just when do you fit in these experiential vacations?

That's when I tried teaching - and there were advantages to trading $ for time. I know that my family greatly appreciates the time that I had to spend with them in the summers. Put a dent in our ER plans, but still managed to get out at 55.

Find your passion - I did that. It's 18th Century music. But when you discover that at age 21, it's a little late to make a career of it.
 
I've been pondering this thread for some time, because I was one of those young'uns who realized she wanted ER at 23 (I'm 40 now and 5 years away from the goal line).

Honestly, the OP gets my dander up. It reminds me of the acquaintances we had from Way Back When who tried to make us feel guilty for being frugal. I fondly remember having friends over for board games and hitting BW3 for 30-cent wing night. I remember taking a "stay-cation" and installing a new shower door at 3AM because the nearby Home Depot was open 24 hours, and why the hell not? My youth was filled with a lot of laughter and joy, and being frugal had no negative impact on that at all.

While there is a risk of 20-somethings becoming so focused on RE that they forget to live now, I think it's FAR overshadowed by the very real risk of them squandering their future by spending too much on stuff or experiences. I also think there's some character to be built by living on a shoestring when you're young. Learning how little you need to truly be happy is a lesson just as valuable as what you learn backpacking across Europe.
 
While there is a risk of 20-somethings becoming so focused on RE that they forget to live now, .

THIS (quote above) was my main point coupled to the belief that, like investing, young people have the advantage of having the time to recover from somewhat (but not extremely) foolish expenses.

But if the proverbial "backpacking through Europe" 20 years ago prevented you from FI at 45, I'd say there's likely more variables at haven't been addressed.

How people choose to do that is up to each individual and each individual situation IMHO.
 
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Learning how little you need to truly be happy is a lesson just as valuable as what you learn backpacking across Europe.

Not to belabor the point, but the "backpacking across Europe" seems to have hit a nerve among some. No intention to 'get up anyone's dander', but maybe we're not talking about the same thing.

Back in the mid 70's backpacking across Europe was a fairly common thing to do consisting of very low airfares, a student Eurail pass and sleeping (when you could) in youth hostels --versus some park bench for 2 or 3 weeks total.

In those days, it might cost about $1,000 give or take in 70's money, a good but not exorbitant amount. (A nephew did it last year for about $3000)

Now, had one taken that $1K and instead invested it at 10% with no losses, over 25 years, it would be worth....$10K.

My thinking is that if 25 years later, $10K now stands between you and being able to quit your job, you're likely skating on some very thin ice and having done this or not wouldn't have made any real difference.
 
...

My youth was filled with a lot of laughter and joy, and being frugal had no negative impact on that at all.

While there is a risk of 20-somethings becoming so focused on RE that they forget to live now, I think it's FAR overshadowed by the very real risk of them squandering their future by spending too much on stuff or experiences. I also think there's some character to be built by living on a shoestring when you're young. Learning how little you need to truly be happy is a lesson just as valuable as what you learn backpacking across Europe.

Brilliant. I personally have much admiration for anyone in their 20's/30's intelligent enough to embody delayed gratification and invest in their future. They are so much smarter than I ever was at their age.
 
As someone who first posted here at 23, I'll comment:

First, I don't personally know anybody who "loves" their work. People are happy to have a job, and they know their job could be worse, but they don't "love" it. In effect, I don't know anybody who dreads weekends or holidays, or feels excited on a Sunday evening at the thought of starting another work week. Did you? If not, are you sure you really loved it? If so, why did you ever retire early? Sounds like a contradiction.


Tim

I agree with you Tim. Sure, I have met people who have had rewarding careers as teachers, medical professionals, etc... I have two experiences and a third example from a friends brother to illustrate my point. I was a lifeguard in high school and college and a bartender/bouncer in college. After awhile I hated going to the beach. It took me a long time to not "work" when I went to the beach or pool. Same goes for the bar scene. I'm still somewhat disappointed when I go to a bar or club. The third example is my friends brother. They grew up in Thousand Oaks, CA. I'm told it is the adult film industry capital. My friends older brother was an adult film actor. You will never guess what he got tired of doing? Like I mentioned, I am sure there are folks who enjoy to varying degrees their jobs. But, very few people who I have met in my 49 years on this planet thoroughly enjoy going to work. I have a neighbor who loves to fly air planes. But, he hates flying his 757 (work) on a regular basis.
 
I don't see the proverbial "$3000 backpacking across Europe trip" and hard core saving at a young age as mutually exclusive. We did the six weeks backpacking across Mexico thing back in college when we didn't have much money at all. Best trip ever? So far, but hey I'm 34 and have plenty of time left (I think). It was around $800 for each of us in year 2000 dollars.

Somehow back in college I knew that would probably be the last time I had nowhere to be for a few months and no responsibilities. Fast forward and jobs, education, then more jobs, a house, a cat, marriage and kids all happened (all good things, except maybe the cat).

I always placed a high value on travel and didn't spend money in many other areas. 10 good years of working and now I'm ER'd and ready to get some passport stamps. I'm sooooo glad I didn't waste money on booze, drugs, fancy cars, houses, etc. I never wanted any of that (well, maybe the booze and drugs).

I'm still waiting for that socially beneficial job to waltz up to me and make me an offer I can't refuse at a job I love so much I'm willing to abandon my family, friends, and leisure pursuits. I was a professional engineer and worked on a lot of projects during my 10 years. Some were tiny (parking lots and turn lanes lol). Others were major and some of you might benefit from them every day. No day was horrible, and only a few were really great. Maybe I picked the wrong career? Maybe I'll end up returning to work some day in some format?
 
But, very few people who I have met in my 49 years on this planet thoroughly enjoy going to work.

+1

I've heard they exist but can't recall ever meeting one. Sure, plenty of folks don't hate their jobs. But if you offer them a margarita in one hand and a plane ticket to a tropical island in the other and ask if they want to skip work for the next year or three, how many would really want to keep working their 9 to 5?
 
I'm 43 and recently became FI. This month I may well RE or at least step away from work with no schedule to return. Will I find another job in 6 months, in a year, ever? Who knows.

What really concerns me are the frequent parade of stories in the media of folks who are layed-off in their 40's. All too often I read about people who blow through their savings in the 1+ years between jobs and are faced with a HUGE financial hole to climb out of if they hope to retire at a traditional age.

Now working for a wage is at my discretion and that peace of mind is well worth the sacrifices I've made to get to this stage. :dance:
 
I applaud their drive and commitment to LBYM and become FI but in a way I find it a little sad.

Disclaimer: I'm 34, sort of FI (as in, 4% rule FI).

It depends on motivation, don't feel sad. I've always LBYM for as long as I can remember, even as a kid I didn't even spend my pocket money (necessities were taken care of by parents). Didn't feel like I was missing out. The more things I have, the less happy I am.

The monetary "sacrifices" I made in my view therefore weren't big, certainly not in relation to the outcome. In fact, the more frugal I become the happier I seem to become :)

What's wrong with happy? Very few wants, easy to meet, and a simple life. That said, I do splurge on targeted expenses (traveling comes to mind). And if a friend wants to have lunch, I go without thinking and pay my share (or pick up the bill).

And I will certainly run into frugality trouble should I meet a nice female to share my life with.

.. but I feel bad for someone in their 20's who hates their job or just doesn't want to work.

Feel bad for all the people who would prefer to not do their job if the monetary reward was taken away. Depending on the survey that's easily 80%+ of the workforce, could easily be 95%.

Much of the working world is organized in a sad way. Even those that love their job wish they could have more flexibility, do less of it or in a more leisurely pace. I didn't "hate" my job all the time, some days I loved it, the amount of stressful and bad days do add up though.

There's time to re-group!

I realize you are talking about savings, but just want to put this out there for the 20-somethings who start out by 'having some fun and exploring' in the early years career wise.

In truth in my view for most lucrative careers, there hardly is time to re-group these days. Your peers who didn't need to regroup are pulling ahead with every year, sometimes even quarter, lost. They get tenure, research grants, specializiation opportunities, a promotion fast-track, MBA, early IPO shares, investment capital, you name it.

Of course there are exceptions everywhere for most career tracks (running your own company especially), but you better not get sidelined early or for too long, before you know it you are too old to get a shot at the big leagues.

Therefore, regrouping is best done when monetary rewards are not a high priority!

That said, I do agree with you that FI shouldn't mean RE. But frankly, what does RE mean in any case? Yes, I have retired from my academic career, my corporate career and (recently) my entrepreneurial career. All of them were kind of short-lived and currently no-one pays my for anything, that may change.

For young-uns early retirement is just a handy ph(r)ase that gives us the freedom to explore.

But not because I have to. I think I am a typical case - you putter around a bit and frequently you'll end up getting paid for it. Or not. As FI we can all choose what to do free of many financial constraints.

What's wrong with that? And why is it fine for older people but not young-uns? Aren't you missing out as well :LOL: Not to mention all that excess cash you will leave to your heirs ;)

Go buy/do that stupid thing you've dreamed of; yeah, it's a waste of money but you have 20-30 years to make back that $10K you blew and in the end it doesn't change your financials one bit after those years.

Realizing one's happiness cannot be bought saves the $10k. Life lessons can fortunately also be learned from other people's failures and successes :)

Yes the $10k wouldn't make any significant difference, but the overall attitude it implies would have cost me much much more. Where do you draw the line? Every one has a different one, and that's ok. I have many times not spent that $10k, and that's a big reason why I am where I am today. Once or twice I did spend the $10k, no regrets.

How sad to see a 25 year old, saying "no, I'm not going to go to backpack through Europe with my friends, I'm going to stay home and watch TV and save that $3000 instead for my retirement (20 years from now) because I hate my job."

It's more like 10 years for starters :cool:

But if that's the trade-off, I agree. What I did however was instead of traveling for a year start a very lucrative entry-level management consulting job which got me FI today. You know why I did that? Because I realized that 1) wherever you go, you always take yourself with you and that determines 80% of your happiness and 2) you can always take that year off, but once you miss the boat on your career it will be really hard to get back on.

And guess what: I can take as much travel as I want now, with a bit more style too, but it just isn't that high a priority anymore. Meanwhile on that job I learned things that make my life today so much better. Being productive teaches you stuff in real life, and builds character. And it made a bundle too.

It seems they're doing the right things for the wrong reasons.

Look deeper at underlying motivation, you may find there is more thought put in there and your feelings of sadness may evaporate :)

Better keep focusing on the happiness that at least some people have such strong willpower and determination to go for what they want, and cheer them on their way to financial bliss ;)

And yes, as others have said. Balancing future me with present me is a tough call to make every day. But that goes for every OMY person out there and underspender (vs. savings) too, plenty of those around here.

All I can say is present me is really thankful for past me, and thinks he made mostly the right choices.:flowers:
 
Honestly, the OP gets my dander up. It reminds me of the acquaintances we had from Way Back When who tried to make us feel guilty for being frugal. I fondly remember having friends over for board games and hitting BW3 for 30-cent wing night. I remember taking a "stay-cation" and installing a new shower door at 3AM because the nearby Home Depot was open 24 hours, and why the hell not? My youth was filled with a lot of laughter and joy, and being frugal had no negative impact on that at all.

I have an acquaintance couple who work in academics and make good money. He told me that he needs at least 2 cups of Starbucks coffee every day and laughed my frugal life style (I always bring lunches to office and never buy Starbucks coffee). At the age of 57, they spend almost every weekend working in the research lab and are talking about moving to another university for higher salaries.

I told them to max their 401k accounts and pay more attention to their investments.
 
I have an acquaintance couple who work in academics and make good money. He told me that he needs at least 2 cups of Starbucks coffee every day and laughed my frugal life style (I always bring lunches to office and never buy Starbucks coffee). At the age of 57, they spend almost every weekend working in the research lab and are talking about moving to another university for higher salaries.

I told them to max their 401k accounts and pay more attention to their investments.

Most (not all) the professors/academics I'm acquainted with around here (MIT, Harvard, etc) have their FI and their RE more or less 'taken care of' via tenure, contracts, unions or other mechanisms.

I don't know any who are overly concerned about retiring comfortably.

Of course these are big, well endowed universities that also pay extremely well; I'm sure there's small places where that's not the case.
 
I'm glad that you're happy in your life. Really.

In my case, yes, I did love my job; every minute of it. I didn't dread the weekends because I worked seven days a week for 20+ years.

No contradiction: I retired early because we sold the company, my working years were (ahem) "rewarded" and I realized how much of life I had missed out on being away from home 200 days a year. Health problems began cropping up as well.

It was time to do something different.

It's interesting to see a different perspective on this from my own. I guess I would fit part of the description of the person in their early 20's that already was gearing up for ER. I wouldn't fall under the having no experiences/watching TV part though so perhaps the OP is not for me.

I guess I was even an early bloomer since I probably started planning how much I would need to save for ER after my first actual income tax paying job at 14. I realized very quickly that my money could make me more money than my back working on a farm :). Then again, that was the tech boom of the late 90's, so my expectations for returns were a bit out of touch with reality!

I view ER savings as money that will buy me more time to enjoy my life, not something that detracted from my ability to do so. I always have, and probably always will, view my career as something I do for money to fund my life, and not much more than that.

As an example, when I read the 2 bolded quotes above, I read them as being completely antithetical. I could never love doing something that pulled me away from my life, no matter how satisfying or personally rewarding it may be.
 
Most (not all) the professors/academics I'm acquainted with around here (MIT, Harvard, etc) have their FI and their RE more or less 'taken care of' via tenure, contracts, unions or other mechanisms.

I don't know any who are overly concerned about retiring comfortably.

Of course these are big, well endowed universities that also pay extremely well; I'm sure there's small places where that's not the case.

You might want to read this:
Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic | The Economist

Random quote: "In Canada 80% of postdocs earn $38,600 or less per year before tax—the average salary of a construction worker."

Now, full university professors get by fine but it's getting a rare thing. Better have a good life partner who can bring in the dough.
 
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