Am I The Only Boomer Who Hates This ?

[Marita40]

I'm an academic and the only dress code I've known over 30 years is that while male professors can get away wearing beat-up jeans in the classroom (usually along with a beat-up jacket) women can't. Nice jeans (dark washed, pressed, not too tight), however, are ok for women. Otherwise the usual dress code is clean but frumpy. I can count on about two hands the times I've worn a suit or heels. I'm very happy for this!

 

[JoeWras]

But, my point remains that there a a lot very talented young folk out there.

Totally agree. I was practicing interview questions* and one was: "Tell me about one of your outstanding co-workers." The first one that came to mind was a millennial.

I just wish we could have a spectrum of workers in tech. For whatever reason, this is being ignored, even as the cry for diversity goes out. It is kind of strange in many ways.

* - Yes, I'm looking for a new job during OMY. I'm crazy, and just seeing if I can punch through the bias against 50+ workers in tech.

 

[GoodWishes]

When I started as a software developer in Silicon Valley in the 80s, causal dress and flexible hours were pretty standard even back then. I guess it depends on the job and location.
I retired a year ago at 53. A couple things that are new from my time that I might have a hard time adjusting to:
- Open floor, no cubicle, no office, everyone sits in a big room in the open. No space, no privacy and noisy.
- "Unlimited vacation", take however much time you need/want with no official vacation policy. What does that really mean?!?!

I agree with other posters that we should get out of the way

In fact, when I quit, one of the young team member asked me if I can stay 6 more months. I told him I am getting out of his way.

 

[growing_older]

- "Unlimited vacation", take however much time you need/want with no official vacation policy. What does that really mean?!?!

This is a good carrot for recruiting, but in actual practice it means the following:

All time off needs to get approved by your supervisor. Some will be more liberal than others, but all will have veto power for any time off requests.

Companies no longer have to carry accrued vacation time on their books as a liability.

When you leave your employer, there is no accrued vacation time to pay out. Ever.

Longer vacations are more difficult to arrange. If you had accrued 3 or 4 weeks of vacation, it was easy to justify taking a long leave up to that amount. With "unlimited" it's much much harder to get approval for more than a week of vacation at a time.

For long-term employees who used to accrue extra vacation time, they are now treated a lot like new hires, since everyone has "unlimited" vacation. It's much harder for long-term employees to get approval for longer or more vacation time than it used to be when their vacation bank showed the hours accrued.

Some employers used to have a "use it or lose it" vacation policy for end of year, which meant employees with accrued vacation had some stronger arguments for why they should be allowed to take time off during end of year holidays. With "unlimited" vacation, managers feel more free to schedule important work during the otherwise lightly attended last weeks of December, and deny requests for vacation at that time since you can always take it later because of the "unlimited" name.

Whoever is more aggressive about requesting time off tends to get more time off than others who make fewer requests. There is no accounting to keep the benefit comparable between employees.

 

[GoodWishes]

Agree with growing_older. DS works at an "unlimited vacation" company and What growing_older said is pretty much what we told him.

 

[Hermit]

Cubicleville? Wait! That's luxury! We're talking OPEN SPACE, the Next Best Thing. Cubes are awesome compared to the new paradigm. You must be retired and missed out.

Wow! That looks a lot like the environment I started my engineering career in. The biggest difference is we had 3x5 desks all lined up. We needed drawers to keep paper in. No desk computers back then. That would be about 35 years ago.

 

[target2019]

When I started in engineering, the company had 4 or 5 drafting tables across. I recall about twenty rows. Everyone faced the same direction, though. I guess it was an open environment of sorts. The ones I'm aware of, and have been in, are different than the picture above. The desks are stand up, and gathered in smaller areas. Not regimented.

 

[Golden sunsets]

Agree with growing_older. DS works at an "unlimited vacation" company and What growing_older said is pretty much what we told him.

Same here. DS has had two such jobs with unlimited vacations and does not like it at all. On the other hand his new wife(our bonus daughter) just got a new job where she will start with 29 days a year off, not including holidays. The days are a pool to cover any need including bereavement, but the good news is the days carry over with no limits and are paid out in lump sum upon the employee's departure, so not all employers are dropping old policies.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[Amethyst]

Yep, huge rooms with big gray metal desks all lined up side-by-side, facing each other in rows of 2 lines of desks. If you skidded back your chair too far, you'd hit the back of the chair of the person in the next row over. And 80% of the employees smoked. I could get used to anything else but the horrible smoking. I actually changed jobs to get away from it.

Wow! That looks a lot like the environment I started my engineering career in. The biggest difference is we had 3x5 desks all lined up. We needed drawers to keep paper in. No desk computers back then. That would be about 35 years ago.

 

[JoeWras]

On unlimited vacation: "growing_older" nailed the issues. This is one of the biggest jokes ever come up in business. The accountants love it. Everyone else at first is happy, and then it becomes a nightmare if you don't have the perfect boss and co-workers, and who does?

On open space: the example above was just one type. It is actually pretty roomy, but the lack of surface adjustment is alarming. It isn't all bad, but the visual and auditory distractions are frustrating. The picture below is a different type and more of the kind I am in, although the end-caps have a person sitting at them, this one doesn't, so my situation is more dense.

Some places really jam them in:

 

[target2019]

With unlimited vacation benefit, I would schedule the next 52 Mondays and Fridays Off. Tuesdays and Thursdays would be BUSY with telecommuting. Wednesdays always TENTATIVE.

 

[Options]

Out with the old, in with the new...

It's happening now:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-06/older-americans-are-retiring-in-droves

More and more baby boomers begin the new year with nothing on their schedule but plans to golf, travel, and spend more time with the grandkids.

The number of Americans aged 65 or older without a disability that aren't in the labor force rose by 800,000 in the fourth quarter of 2016, marking the resumption of a long-standing trend: the exodus of their generation from the work force and into retirement.

 

[MRG]

I wonder how FMLA works with the newer PTO policy?

 

[target2019]

It's happening now:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-06/older-americans-are-retiring-in-droves

One thought I had about this thread is that if you aren't getting out of the way, there is one more unemployed youngster (meaning under 50 years of age).

I really feel bad about taking a paycheck, but someone over 60 has to be available to meet with the old folks in government!

 

[target2019]

I wonder how FMLA works with the newer PTO policy?

That could be a battle, I'm sure. FMLA is a legal thing, whereas PTO seems to be a discretionary concept.

 

[growing_older]

With unlimited vacation benefit, I would schedule the next 52 Mondays and Fridays Off. Tuesdays and Thursdays would be BUSY with telecommuting. Wednesdays always TENTATIVE.

Good luck getting that approved. I know someone who requested every Friday half off (52 weeks * 1/2 day = 26 days) which would have been possible (very senior employee) under the old plan where he had 6 weeks vacation and had done something similar in the past. That request got denied with some grousing about the precedent it would set. With no definite accounting of days owed, it is getting progressively more difficult to get any time off approved.

I wonder how FMLA works with the newer PTO policy?

I think every employer can set their own procedures. The mandated leave is of course available to everyone, but the time off before the leave kicks in is up to individual interpretation. Under the old system, employees used vacation days (or sick days when those were accrued separately) to keep full pay until those were exhausted, then moved to short-term disability (optional benefit, so only if they have signed up for it and the leave was for their own medical issue) then finally were put on family leave. Under the new system, the company continues salary for a variable time typically 2-4 weeks depending on the employee's seniority. PTO (combined vacation and sick time) accrual used to be 3-6 weeks depending on seniority with up to 2x accrued, but the new payouts do not adjust for whether employee has taken much vacation or not.

 

[MRG]

That could be a battle, I'm sure. FMLA is a legal thing, whereas PTO seems to be a discretionary concept.

They are. I didn't explain very well.

At my Megacorp you could take FMLA for medical reasons, yours or family as the law allows. You were not paid for the missed time, but you could use vacation or sick time. Once those were gone you received nothing. I had a gal who would run out of PTO halfway through the year. Always hated the discussion of the policy.

 

[Options]

One thought I had about this thread is that if you aren't getting out of the way, there is one more unemployed youngster (meaning under 50 years of age).

I really feel bad about taking a paycheck, but someone over 60 has to be available to meet with the old folks in government!

When I wrote earlier that boomers should really get out of the way, I was not referring to those who add value in the workforce, but instead to those boomers with antiquated thinking systems. I find it pathetic/hypocritical when any boomer, one from the very generation that crooned "I hope I die before I get old" and chanted "don't trust anyone over 30", disparages young people. It's positively painful being out with supposedly highly intelligent and successful boomer friends and listening to such blindness (I keep my mouth shut/change the subject).

The book The Seventh Sense chronicles quite boldly the rampant leadership failures worldwide of older generations in almost every area of human endeavor. Many members of the older generations are just not equipped to lead complex adaptive systems in today's world due to their outdated mental models. Younger generations are on an entirely different planet than most boomers (as in they live in a different paradigm) when it comes to embracing the possibility of this new globally networked world. As a boomer, I spend a lot of time attempting to "catch up" with at least the most important concepts in this new generation's thinking as this thinking represents the possibility of the future (I am not talking about social networking, of which I have no part). Again, generations following the boomers are why I am bullish on the future (and hence my own prospects in every area of life).

There is a place for older generations, just not in the way of the many transformations coming out of the younger ones. IMO, this is an exciting time to be alive, young or old.

 

[target2019]

When I wrote earlier that boomers should really get out of the way, I was not referring to those who add value in the workforce, but instead to those boomers with antiquated thinking systems. I find it pathetic/hypocritical when any boomer, one from the very generation that crooned "I hope I die before I get old" and chanted "don't trust anyone over 30", disparages young people. It's positively painful being out with supposedly highly intelligent and successful boomer friends and listening to such blindness (I keep my mouth shut/change the subject).

The book The Seventh Sense chronicles quite boldly the rampant leadership failures worldwide of older generations in almost every area of human endeavor. Many members of the older generations are just not equipped to lead complex adaptive systems in today's world due to their outdated mental models. Younger generations are on an entirely different planet than most boomers (as in they live in a different paradigm) when it comes to embracing the possibility of this new globally networked world. As a boomer, I spend a lot of time attempting to "catch up" with at least the most important concepts in this new generation's thinking as this thinking represents the possibility of the future (I am not talking about social networking, of which I have no part). Again, generations following the boomers are why I am bullish on the future (and hence my own prospects in every area of life).

There is a place for older generations, just not in the way of the many transformations coming out of the younger ones. IMO, this is an exciting time to be alive, young or old.

Just talking about myself (my favorite subject for 2017), I'm not in an environment that requires much adaptation. Once you're in a position with contract, you fill requests for people or projects as they are published. Proposals are very important, and company can take on new work as other companies stumble.

So, in this environment I toil in, older and wiser and connected is very important. In fact, I see younger employees leaving on a regular basis. There are others selected to fill in.

In between the two age extremes are a group of worn-down middle-aged employees. They have growing families and work long hours. Hats off to them.

I am pretty well caught up in millenial culture. As we have aged, younger culture has looked swell, so we mix it in with globally-acquired tastes and so on.

 

[FireBug]

It seems typical that every generation rebels against its elders to some extent, and that most elders don't approve. Right or wrong, most people resist change, especially with age - though most elders don't realize it in my experience (and stridently insist otherwise).

Your last sentence is probably right. While you may not approve of Millenials lifestyles, I suspect the elders from the 70's approved even less of Hippies. And I suspect they felt they no longer "ruled the world" (your description). While we weren't all hippies, our generation was influenced by their movement and others. Just as Millenials seems to be laying waste to conformity from your perspective, hippies started that ball rolling. [Ironically hippies grew into Boomers, an argument can be made that we made things (much) worse as adults than our youthful idealism might have promised - but that's another well worn thread. Maybe Boomers, former Hippies, have little room to criticize?].

All the above can be written about Bohemians, swing kids, flappers, beatniks, hippies, freaks, punks, mods, new romantics, generation X, emo, hipsters, millennials, etc.

As for the breakdown of the workplace environment as you describe. If the purpose of work is to increase productivity and offer more valuable competitive products and services, the rules you describe above may be beside the point. That's not all bad IMO. I don't miss the days when we all wore suits to work. I don't miss the days where everyone smoked at work, and you were "out" if you didn't. I don't miss the days when women and minorities were openly treated as second class citizens. I don't miss the days when promotions were awarded based on seniority over merit, and certain groups were excluded regardless. The decrease in stay-at-home-Moms has necessarily altered the workplace. Technology has/is radically changing the workplace - we can often work together without physically being together - work hours aren't as necessary, neither are dress codes. I could go on and on.

Change is good, though it's two steps forward, one step back in the long term. We may go astray with change in the short term, but so far we seem to get it right long term. I hope that hasn't changed.

Sorry if this isn't what you hoped to hear...just my 2 cents.

+1 (....and original comment worth far more than 2 cents)

 

[Amethyst]

Just last week, in my part-time gig, my late-30-ish GS-15 seatmate confided in me that he is ready to leave because of disrespectful treatment by his managers.

I like and respect this man, who is kind and considerate to me, and who I have observed to be a hard worker but rather sensitive. Anyway, he told me all about the situation and I offered no judgments, just perspective. I described similar situations I've been in, and what I did about it, and how I found out later on that I'd actually been picked for those jobs because senior managers wanted to see how I'd handle the negative aspects. I asked him if he thought his senior managers might have picked him for this job precisely because he handles jerks well and protects his subordinates from them (which he does).

Later that day, he came back from meetings and I asked how he was doing. He said he was feeling much better about things, "mainly because of talking to you."

Can you imagine how useful and needed this made me feel?

Amethyst

 

[imoldernu]

Not a Boomer", but one of the "lucky few".
First job out of college was management in '58.
Until retirement in 1989, always wore a suit and tie... never a sportcoat w/slacks
Always salaried, until moving to home office in 1979, normal work week was 70 to 80 hours including auto travel to stores in my district. Never thought this as anything but normal, and never complained. Dedicated and loyal.
Smoking was the norm, everywhere until 1980.
Very,very few women managers, though most of my secretaries were much smarter than my peer coworkers.
$$$ rewards didn't exist. Best deals were winning "best" awards, which meant long weekends with DW at classy Hotel, trips to Chicago, and (one time) a full ten day "First Class all the way" trip to Japan.
Company Car.
Personnel Department... not Human Resources... that actually tracked and guided, and measured, so the promotions were based on what you did, not who you knew. A godsend for me.
Many company management meetings... three day, inviting wives, to resorts.
Comradery among peers. Great parties.
Always mentoring younger people. Consuidered it a badge of honor when they were promoted.
Good feeling toward employer.... called him/her/it "Mother","Mom".
Always "Mr." except when alone.
I was the only District Manager to hire mostly women store managers. They were loyal and hard working and never gave me a problem. Lots of tears on both parts when I was promoted from region to home office.
Never considered leaving til the division closed.
From '58, to '79, no really big changes in my profession. Not the best paying, but altogether very satisfying and happy.

 

[unclemick]

Yes, you are just a cranky old guy.

Just kidding. I'm only 4 years behind you and I have the same perception. How did our generation get cheated out of our turn to rule?

Welcome and congratulations on RE soon. I hope the time between now and May goes quickly for you.


P.S. OTOH, I confess I find it hard to find fault with lax dress codes. Not only am I a naturally informal person (i.e., "slob"), I w*rk in a messy chemical plant where if you wear expensive clothes you ruin expensive clothes. Much better to ruin jeans I can get at Costco for 14 bucks.

Age 73 here. Sea of desks/drawing boards(with real vellum) to the'Dilbert cubicle' to working from home. Suit and tie to 'casual Friday' to ??.

And I find it necessary(after 22 years of ER) to keep a 'Fifth Grader' on my go to team for digital translation and interpretation of current customs of the native population.

heh heh heh - I dress up/down/retro in ER - because I can. Carhart, Five Brothers with logging suspenders, Pendleton, Aloha Shirts when south and whatever floats my boat.

 

[Options]

Not a Boomer", but one of the "lucky few".
First job out of college was management in '58.
Until retirement in 1989, always wore a suit and tie... never a sportcoat w/slacks
Always salaried, until moving to home office in 1979, normal work week was 70 to 80 hours including auto travel to stores in my district. Never thought this as anything but normal, and never complained. Dedicated and loyal.
Smoking was the norm, everywhere until 1980.
Very,very few women managers, though most of my secretaries were much smarter than my peer coworkers.
$$$ rewards didn't exist. Best deals were winning "best" awards, which meant long weekends with DW at classy Hotel, trips to Chicago, and (one time) a full ten day "First Class all the way" trip to Japan.
Company Car.
Personnel Department... not Human Resources... that actually tracked and guided, and measured, so the promotions were based on what you did, not who you knew. A godsend for me.
Many company management meetings... three day, inviting wives, to resorts.
Comradery among peers. Great parties.
Always mentoring younger people. Consuidered it a badge of honor when they were promoted.
Good feeling toward employer.... called him/her/it "Mother","Mom".
Always "Mr." except when alone.
I was the only District Manager to hire mostly women store managers. They were loyal and hard working and never gave me a problem. Lots of tears on both parts when I was promoted from region to home office.
Never considered leaving til the division closed.
From '58, to '79, no really big changes in my profession. Not the best paying, but altogether very satisfying and happy.

I am one boomer who will be forever grateful for the many sacrifices and gifts left by your generation (named "The Greatest Generation" for good reason) for all those that followed:

https://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Generation-Tom-Brokaw/dp/0812975294

"In the spring of 1984, I went to the northwest of France, to Normandy, to prepare an NBC documentary on the fortieth anniversary of D-Day, the massive and daring Allied invasion of Europe that marked the beginning of the end of Adolf Hitler's Third Reich. There, I underwent a life-changing experience. As I walked the beaches with the American veterans who had returned for this anniversary, men in their sixties and seventies, and listened to their stories, I was deeply moved and profoundly grateful for all they had done. Ten years later, I returned to Normandy for the fiftieth anniversary of the invasion, and by then I had come to understand what this generation of Americans meant to history. It is, I believe, the greatest generation any society has ever produced."

Of course, I had to be born into the "Me Generation."

 

[growing_older]

I am one boomer who will be forever grateful for the many sacrifices and gifts left by your generation (named "The Greatest Generation" for good reason) for all those that followed:

Greatest generation: born between 1910 and 1924

Silent generation: born mid 1920's to mid 1940's