Howdy! 40 married w/ 4 kids

[Figaro]

More power to you if you can live on $36k per year.

We pay $6k towards property taxes a year and $6k towards utilities. And, we live in California and have owned our home for 26 years so our property taxes are cheap compared to most. Home is paid for and we still couldn't live on $36k per year.

Yeah...I could only wish my prop taxes were so low...if I moved to another state...I'd probably be able to live sub $30k with an extra $6k for whatever comes our way - though I imagine other costs would balance it off somehow. I can't imagine $6k on utilities - must be pricey for electric in Cali...since I'd imagine you don't need much heating fuel. We pay ~2k a year for utilities here in IL - nuclear power is good for the world and the consumer!

 

[Figaro]

Personal lesson I learned when transitioning off megacorp insurance to ACA--there's a minimum yearly income you must have if you wish to avoid Medicaid particularly with your kids. When enrolling in an ACA plan (my state uses the healthcare.gov), it gives you no warning, and when you hit submit, your application is immediately forwarded to your state's Medicaid office.
Justin at RootOfGood dot com has some blog posts of his experience in NC. Seattlecyclone dot com has similar posts about his experience in WA. Not making a judgement about Medicaid vs CHIP vs ACA, but wanted you to aware before hitting submit on an ACA application and end up surprised like I was.

If you do target an ACA plan, Cost Sharing Reductions for Silver plans are something to look at. Our personal situation makes it difficult to hit the relatively narrow income band that qualifies, but CSR can drastically reduce your healthcare costs.

Like you, we have 4 kids. I had two "sabbaticals", one in my early thirties and one in my early forties before finally going on "permanent sabbatical" three years ago. DS2 will occasionally ask if I am going to "fail" this third attempt LOL! In the first 2 "sabbaticals", it was entertaining to me so see the frightened/shocked look on people's faces when they found out I was unemployed and didn't seem to have a care in the world about my situation.

At the beginning of my current "permanent sabbatical", we moved several hundred miles to be closer to family and a couple of hours away from the nearest mega-metropolis. My new friends/neighbors/colleagues initially accepted that neither DW nor I w*rk, but would constantly offer words of encouragement along the lines of "something will come along soon." I just let it go, said thanks, and asked them about their careers. People looooove talking about themselves and are so busy talking they rarely bother to ask again. As a plus, in our new location, my kids that are still in public schools are not exposed to the "keeping up with the Joneses" nonsense prevalent in previous mega-metropolis suburbia schools they attended.

IMHO, once you have "won" the financial game (it seems you have even nicely run up the score from your initial post), it is now a mental game for your and your spouse. I worked long hours and/or traveled extensively with my j*bs. It can be a big change being around your spouse most waking hours. I know I have crossed the lines when DW says, "You need to think about going back to w*rk." Straightens me out everytime!

Thanks Dr Brisket! This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the references - definitely something I'll read up on more. Thanks for the tip on bringing conversation back to the other people - I see it being done in sales quite often, guess it's time to apply that personally now too.

 

[HarveyS]

I lived in the greater Chicago area for about 10 years. In the last year I paid over $4,000 for gas, water, trash, elect, internet. No cable. Property tax was over $14k/yr. Homeowners was $2,400/yr. Car insurance was $2k/yr without kids (more later). I don't know how you are doing it, but more power to you.

Regarding kid costs. Yes, braces are real. DD needed them twice before leaving HS. DS also needed them. Roughly $5k each time (and that was 5-10 yrs ago). As soon as DD got her license car insurance went up $1000/yr. She did not have her own car - just adding her to our cars which our policy required us to do since she lived in our house. DS car insurance was +$1700/yr. Umbrella policy increased about $500/yr when DD got license. Stayed the same when DS got license, but by then DD was out of the house on her own.

Kids will find their "thing". If their "thing" requires travel, sport fees, personal coaching, etc., you need to seriously consider supporting them, IMO. It's just money at the end. DD and DS took different paths and each path was about $3k - $5k/year for each year in HS. Travel sports, musical instruments, tutors, etc. We toured colleges to help them make an informed choice. About $5k per kid. Oh, and homecoming dances, proms, etc. are still expensive even with hand-me-down dresses. They will want a Northface backpack, Patagonia jacket, iPhone, etc. It's not right, but they need at least some of these to fit in. You can get lucky and find some of this at yard sales, eBay, etc. But not all. They will each need a laptop for school, printer costs. You might think they can share a laptop, but certainly in HS, you would be wrong.

Spend a weekend with a teenage boy and see what he can eat. Your food budget will double once he hits 14. Maybe you have girls? Food inflation is real and more than 2% annually in my world.

They will get hurt. Broken bones, scrapes requiring stitches, pulled muscles requiring PT, etc. Maybe $5k per kid in my case.

Oh, and they will likely need glasses and/or contacts. Think about $500 every 2 years or so per kid.

Hopefully not in your case, but my kids needed to see the dermatologist. Anti-acne cream is remarkably expensive. Use GoodRx to find the lowest costs in your area for prescription drugs.

Hope this helps.
Harvey

 

[tb001]

I lived in the greater Chicago area for about 10 years. In the last year I paid over $4,000 for gas, water, trash, elect, internet. No cable. Property tax was over $14k/yr. Homeowners was $2,400/yr. Car insurance was $2k/yr without kids (more later). I don't know how you are doing it, but more power to you.

Regarding kid costs. Yes, braces are real. DD needed them twice before leaving HS. DS also needed them. Roughly $5k each time (and that was 5-10 yrs ago). As soon as DD got her license car insurance went up $1000/yr. She did not have her own car - just adding her to our cars which our policy required us to do since she lived in our house. DS car insurance was +$1700/yr. Umbrella policy increased about $500/yr when DD got license. Stayed the same when DS got license, but by then DD was out of the house on her own.

Kids will find their "thing". If their "thing" requires travel, sport fees, personal coaching, etc., you need to seriously consider supporting them, IMO. It's just money at the end. DD and DS took different paths and each path was about $3k - $5k/year for each year in HS. Travel sports, musical instruments, tutors, etc. We toured colleges to help them make an informed choice. About $5k per kid. Oh, and homecoming dances, proms, etc. are still expensive even with hand-me-down dresses. They will want a Northface backpack, Patagonia jacket, iPhone, etc. It's not right, but they need at least some of these to fit in. You can get lucky and find some of this at yard sales, eBay, etc. But not all. They will each need a laptop for school, printer costs. You might think they can share a laptop, but certainly in HS, you would be wrong.

Spend a weekend with a teenage boy and see what he can eat. Your food budget will double once he hits 14. Maybe you have girls? Food inflation is real and more than 2% annually in my world.

They will get hurt. Broken bones, scrapes requiring stitches, pulled muscles requiring PT, etc. Maybe $5k per kid in my case.

Oh, and they will likely need glasses and/or contacts. Think about $500 every 2 years or so per kid.

Hopefully not in your case, but my kids needed to see the dermatologist. Anti-acne cream is remarkably expensive. Use GoodRx to find the lowest costs in your area for prescription drugs.

Hope this helps.
Harvey

Thank you for posting all of these details!! I’ve been trying to be sure we’ve included expenses like this as our kids get older, but it’s hard to know what you don’t know! There are a couple in there we haven’t included.

For us one of the conditions of fire with young kids was that they didn’t pay the price for us not wanting to work. We want them to have more than we had growing up and not have the basics, like braces, be a stressor for us. But everyone has their idea of what the basics are. Having available loving parents counts for a lot!

 

[flintnational]

My situation was similar. I took a company buyout at 46. I thought about FIRE at that time but wanted a little more cushion and I was still interested in w*rk. After 18 months off, I took a smaller j*b working four days per week, three days from home. I did that for 6 years and then Fired at 53. Seemed about right for us. Well done on your savings! Congrats! FI gives you a lot of options.

 

[1242Vintage]

Congrats on your progress. We are a family of 5 and retired last year at age 56.

Couple of thoughts on your numbers.

Your health care costs are low as compared to ours. Retired last year and our youngest is still on our health insurance. Monthly cost is $1,900 for our family of three. I have a very low co-pay which is driving the higher monthly cost.

We planned and saved for it, but cost for university for three kids two years apart was a killer on our budget and NW, much more than we thought. But when your kid gets the notice and jumps for joy that she is accepted to a premier four-year university, you swallow hard and figure out how to pay for their dream shot. That’s what Moms and Dads do.

In retrospect, supporting kids through four-year universities and launching them into their science and engineer careers was the best investment we ever made! All three graduated with STEM bachelor degrees with only a very small token amount (<$10k) of student debt. Between tuition, other school costs, travel back home several times a year and living expenses, we paid in total in excess of $1/2 million for their four-year university education and another $100k+ for youngest daughters graduate nursing degree.

 

[Figaro]

I lived in the greater Chicago area for about 10 years. In the last year I paid over $4,000 for gas, water, trash, elect, internet. No cable. Property tax was over $14k/yr. Homeowners was $2,400/yr. Car insurance was $2k/yr without kids (more later). I don't know how you are doing it, but more power to you.

Regarding kid costs. Yes, braces are real. DD needed them twice before leaving HS. DS also needed them. Roughly $5k each time (and that was 5-10 yrs ago). As soon as DD got her license car insurance went up $1000/yr. She did not have her own car - just adding her to our cars which our policy required us to do since she lived in our house. DS car insurance was +$1700/yr. Umbrella policy increased about $500/yr when DD got license. Stayed the same when DS got license, but by then DD was out of the house on her own.

Kids will find their "thing". If their "thing" requires travel, sport fees, personal coaching, etc., you need to seriously consider supporting them, IMO. It's just money at the end. DD and DS took different paths and each path was about $3k - $5k/year for each year in HS. Travel sports, musical instruments, tutors, etc. We toured colleges to help them make an informed choice. About $5k per kid. Oh, and homecoming dances, proms, etc. are still expensive even with hand-me-down dresses. They will want a Northface backpack, Patagonia jacket, iPhone, etc. It's not right, but they need at least some of these to fit in. You can get lucky and find some of this at yard sales, eBay, etc. But not all. They will each need a laptop for school, printer costs. You might think they can share a laptop, but certainly in HS, you would be wrong.

Spend a weekend with a teenage boy and see what he can eat. Your food budget will double once he hits 14. Maybe you have girls? Food inflation is real and more than 2% annually in my world.

They will get hurt. Broken bones, scrapes requiring stitches, pulled muscles requiring PT, etc. Maybe $5k per kid in my case.

Oh, and they will likely need glasses and/or contacts. Think about $500 every 2 years or so per kid.

Hopefully not in your case, but my kids needed to see the dermatologist. Anti-acne cream is remarkably expensive. Use GoodRx to find the lowest costs in your area for prescription drugs.

Hope this helps.
Harvey

Thanks Harvey. Regarding some of the costs, I'm risk aware and keep deductibles higher than most people, because I do have cash liquidity. Homeowners policy could be cut in half with higher deductible - and be aware of what you're actually being covered for and you've got to keep shopping for the policy each year. In my eyes I only really care about the losses related to fire as that would be the greatest loss, so I insure against that loss and forego things like jewelry rider coverage.
The insurance industry keeps raising premiums (slightly increasing 'benefits' year on year to justify). On vehicles, I keep liability only and an umbrella policy to protect my assets. I took a car off insurance since we were only using one car in the pandemic. Harvey if you want my insurance guy contact pm me. Seems like I need the kids to move out or not get their drivers licenses till after they move out - especially if they're not driving. (That would explain why alot of teens that I know don't drive and haven't gotten their licenses - guess it continues to adulthood as well - since my younger colleagues didn't drive but uber/lyft'd / public transport /walked every where.

I'm kind of green when it comes to energy/resource usage...
To reduce electric, one year I borrowed a power meter from our library and measured all our appliances /inputs that are using electric even when turned off. I keep all electronics on power strips, and don't turn them on until I need em. I have replaced all the lights bulbs with energy efficient and better for the environment Led's (made a big difference before/after). The electric company here in IL actually gives major discounts for these products. I pondered replacing older appliances if the numbers work out for energy savings ROI vs capex.
I have a programmable thermostat and cycle heat/cooling for max efficiency. Our home apparently very well insulated as well, able to hold a comfortable temp for up to 3 days when it's 80s outside. We actually use very little water - using only the minimum allotment each bill. I've contemplated building a grey water system to water my lawn/flush toilets with sink water that we use for washing hands/dishes. (I have a shower that takes forever to heat up, so I route the clean water to my toilet bowl for supplemental flushing.). Plenty of free ground water from the sump pit as well...but the system would be more complex than savings (since we're already at mins for water usage).

Thanks for noting on the kid costs - it's an eye opener for the specifics there. Thanks for the rec on the Goodrx, I've seen their mailings but didn't think it was legit. Maybe I will offer alternatives to the home-coming/prom stuff..like a trip somewhere they want to go to...or hosting the after party (yeah I know I'm just dreaming)...but I gotta make plans still...my kids are increasing in their food intake, the 2% per annum is fairly accurate.

Ahh the clothing...I remember that the hot jeans back in the day were girbaud...and the jackets were starter jackets. I never had any of those...but they are pretty quality items - if we go that route, it will be quality over quantity. You could have it, but don't expect the entire wardrobe to be that...

 

[Figaro]

Thank you for posting all of these details!! I’ve been trying to be sure we’ve included expenses like this as our kids get older, but it’s hard to know what you don’t know! There are a couple in there we haven’t included.

For us one of the conditions of fire with young kids was that they didn’t pay the price for us not wanting to work. We want them to have more than we had growing up and not have the basics, like braces, be a stressor for us. But everyone has their idea of what the basics are. Having available loving parents counts for a lot!

I think you nailed it on my hesitancy to want to permanently hang it up....I still want the best for my kids and don't want the kids to pay the price for not wanting to work. We have alot of income potential, but man...I could already see that the stressors of w*rk really are yuck. Nose to the grindstone all these years...got the kick to the curb...and I want to go back to the stockholm syndrome of work? We will see how things work out in this sabbatical.

 

[Figaro]

My situation was similar. I took a company buyout at 46. I thought about FIRE at that time but wanted a little more cushion and I was still interested in w*rk. After 18 months off, I took a smaller j*b working four days per week, three days from home. I did that for 6 years and then Fired at 53. Seemed about right for us. Well done on your savings! Congrats! FI gives you a lot of options.

@flintnational if you have kids, were the kids launched by the age 53? Was it difficult finding work after the 18months?(some companies say it's a red flag - but I kind of feel that I'd not want to work for a work culture that values only working and no life out of working).

 

[Figaro]

Congrats on your progress. We are a family of 5 and retired last year at age 56.

Couple of thoughts on your numbers.

Your health care costs are low as compared to ours. Retired last year and our youngest is still on our health insurance. Monthly cost is $1,900 for our family of three. I have a very low co-pay which is driving the higher monthly cost.

We planned and saved for it, but cost for university for three kids two years apart was a killer on our budget and NW, much more than we thought. But when your kid gets the notice and jumps for joy that she is accepted to a premier four-year university, you swallow hard and figure out how to pay for their dream shot. That’s what Moms and Dads do.

In retrospect, supporting kids through four-year universities and launching them into their science and engineer careers was the best investment we ever made! All three graduated with STEM bachelor degrees with only a very small token amount (<$10k) of student debt. Between tuition, other school costs, travel back home several times a year and living expenses, we paid in total in excess of $1/2 million for their four-year university education and another $100k+ for youngest daughters graduate nursing degree.

@1242Vintage way to go on the support. Thanks for that perspective (re: jumping for joy...taking a gulp and figure out how to pay for the dream shot). Hope your children show gratitude for that support. At least the stem produces a return vs other options - so yeah, if they get a whoa opportunity...gotta figure out a way (might even have to go back to work by then). I'd really hope when the time comes that they'd want to stick close to home. My thought is that the further they go for school...they may never be back home. (Maybe I need some perspective on that from those who have walked in the shoes of launching your grown children to adulthood...

 

[ivinsfan]

Dude you seem like a nice, smart enough guy, but you decided to have four kids..I doubt anyone, anywhere thinks kids are cheap to raise.



Now you think they can maybe forgo braces, extra curricular activities, prom, not get drivers license on your dime , etc.



What does their Mother think about this?

 

[tb001]

Fwiw, if you really can keep your spend that low until the teen years at least, you should be able to fund most of those ‘extras’ with your savings anyway. College might be interesting. We’ve decided to take the approach of state schools only, unless they get in to a top 5 or 10 school and have shown they’re super responsible, in which case we’ll find a way to make it happen. We’re in a great state for public universities, so that helps. Based on their behavior at 3 & 5, I don’t think we’re going to have to make that call, but you never know!

Also fwiw, I have a stem degree, but DH out earned me by at least 2x with a European history degree. I really believe it’s all about the person and not the degree.

 

[Philliefan33]

Plenty of people live at poverty level, but not by choice. When I was young there was a time when my family was living barely above poverty level, but both of my parents were working and it was the best they could do. We had everything we needed and a little of what we wanted, but I knew not to ask for anything extra. I heard “sorry, we can’t afford that” on a regular basis. I resented the situation, but not my parents because I saw them trying their best.

At some point your kids are going to want something and you will say “sorry, we can’t afford that”. Will your kids resent you for retiring early and forcing them to be poor? Don’t tell yourself “they can work for what they want”. Twelve year olds want things but they cannot get a job.

Teaching teens to drive is part of parenting (even urban dwellers should learn to drive). Allowing (aiding) your kids to explore different hobbies, activities, and creative outlets is part of parenting. Most of the time those things cost money. Can your $36K budget handle paying $50/month x four kids for activities? ($50/month per kid would be getting off cheap)

I think it is selfish to retire at age 40 with four young kids if it means you (they) have to live at poverty level growing up.

 

[tb001]

Yeah, $50/mo probably won’t cut it. We’ve budget $500/mo per kid for extra activities and so far that’s been about right. Right now it’s mainly going towards swim and soccer. Swim is the big $$, but it’s important to us and I’m not a good enough swimmer to be their teacher.

My guess is we’ll limit to two activities at a time, but it all adds up.

 

[ivinsfan]

Yeah, $50/mo probably won’t cut it. We’ve budget $500/mo per kid for extra activities and so far that’s been about right. Right now it’s mainly going towards swim and soccer. Swim is the big $$, but it’s important to us and I’m not a good enough swimmer to be their teacher.

My guess is we’ll limit to two activities at a time, but it all adds up.

Well 500 bucks a month a kid is a personal choice....not one I would make.

 

[1242Vintage]

@1242Vintage way to go on the support. Thanks for that perspective (re: jumping for joy...taking a gulp and figure out how to pay for the dream shot). Hope your children show gratitude for that support. At least the stem produces a return vs other options - so yeah, if they get a whoa opportunity...gotta figure out a way (might even have to go back to work by then). I'd really hope when the time comes that they'd want to stick close to home. My thought is that the further they go for school...they may never be back home. (Maybe I need some perspective on that from those who have walked in the shoes of launching your grown children to adulthood...

Thank you for your very kind words.

All three of our kids are way ahead in their careers because we supported them and didn’t put constraints on them. They also know that we have their backs in case something goes south so they are able to take on bigger education and career challenges. It’s awesome to stand back and see your kids soar.

All three are very appreciative of our financial support through their higher education and have expressed that to us on multiple occasions.

Today my youngest daughter who is 22 years old and just earned a grad degree in nursing from Johns Hopkins in Baltimore Face-timed me to let me know that she just got a very good job offer. I (Dad) was the first call she made. That call was pure gold!

 

[Figaro]

I think based on the warnings that it'll be safe to say that likely young kids won't cost much more than our current plan (within the next 5 years), and to expect increased expenses as the kiddies become teens and on to college. In the ten years I'd anticipate 25% increase and then in 15 years maybe up to 100% increase. I've confidence that my assets would appreciate and generate cash flow to be able to support double the base case scenario of $36k - and then there is also the ability to shift and relocate to a lower cost of living location.

It helps to be on the same page with spouse in these matters and gladly we have always been on the same page. Contrary to the thought that we are "anti-activities", we have done swim, piano and gymnastics - Activities that they enjoy. We've had membership to kids museum and also the science / history / aquarium and museum and the botanical gardens and nature conservatories. We enjoy live broadway shows and musicals. We enjoy travel and stay at hotels. We've had summer camp and fun activities all well-within our $36k spending. I'm fine with revising the plan as time comes - but like I mentioned earlier, we are very intentional with our spending and we are showing our kids to make a choice whenever we decide to buy something, that there may be alternatives.

For instance, each time we head to a big box store with a huge toy section, the kids play and look whole we are there, but they never ask to buy them. They actually rush over to the book section and read through the books while they're in the shopping cart. I contrast to the parents that I often see cave in to the demands of the children - when there is always a cost.

As parents of four children, yes we knew what we were getting into, and it was something that we valued even before we got married.

 

[Figaro]

Thank you for your very kind words.

All three of our kids are way ahead in their careers because we supported them and didn’t put constraints on them. They also know that we have their backs in case something goes south so they are able to take on bigger education and career challenges. It’s awesome to stand back and see your kids soar.

All three are very appreciative of our financial support through their higher education and have expressed that to us on multiple occasions.

Today my youngest daughter who is 22 years old and just earned a grad degree in nursing from Johns Hopkins in Baltimore Face-timed me to let me know that she just got a very good job offer. I (Dad) was the first call she made. That call was pure gold!

That is great to hear - being the first to call...made me smile at that! Thanks for putting it to words that I was not able to produce on my own. I'd want to have my kids' backs as well and be counted on if they ever needed it. Makes sense to me now...

So looks like we will just put in a few more years for those particular scenarios.

 

[socca]

I still have vivid memories of the childhood trips my family made to Antigua back in the '60s (I haven't been to Antigua in ages but I suspect that it's much more developed these days ). What effect do extraordinary (and costly, BTW) experiences have on a young developing mind? It might be worth padding your budget to permit your young minds to have similar 'extraordinary experiences'.

 

[tb001]

Well 500 bucks a month a kid is a personal choice....not one I would make.

Absolutely. But one sport and one other activity add up quicker than you might think, at least in our area. I budgeted this amount assuming I was being quite generous in the budget, but aside from COVID times, it’s been pretty on target. A little high, but not much. And we have young kids.

It just depends on how many things you want to expose them to and how much you can do yourself vs need to have someone else do. I’m sure most parents could teach their kids to swim. Not me.

Our kids have also had some unexpected health challenges that have been quite costly. We have great health insurance, but have spend several thousand in out of pocket expenses in the last year. I’m grateful to be able to be home with them, but with kids, expenses can be unpredictable.

When we were first looking at RE I had so many people talk about waiting until the kids were out of college and cautioning us about unexpected costs. Thankfully so far we’ve overestimated in enough areas and the market has been good enough to us that we’ve been able to absorb the costs, but it’s hard to predict what might happen. Mental health issues, learning disabilities, addiction, illness etc... can all throw a wrench in the best of plans. It sounds like the OP is still thoughtfully working through some of the potential variables. Just an additional perspective.

 

[HarveyS]

In my experience $500/month/kid is a reasonable estimate. If the kids have talent and desire to play travel sport, competitive dance, swim, marching band/music, science fair, etc., those travel related costs add up fast.

 

[Aerides]

Well 500 bucks a month a kid is a personal choice....not one I would make.

It ran my sister close to that for dance for my niece. Between classes, outfits, performing, travel, etc. It might seem silly and unnecessary, but it taught her far more than just dancing. She loved it and was good, made great friends, became a leader in the group helping teach younger kids, developed a lot of athleticism, etc. We also found it kept her occupied and engaged so much she avoided a lot of the less positive opportunities that are more typical for teenagers.

In retrospect now, money well spent.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

In my experience $500/month/kid is a reasonable estimate. If the kids have talent and desire to play travel sport, competitive dance, swim, marching band/music, science fair, etc., those travel related costs add up fast.

Double that if the activity is equestrian....

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I would have been happy to forgo some of the kid activities but our kids' friends were all in activities like after school care, sports, Scouts and various extra-curricular classes, clubs and activities. They would have been left out if we hadn't enrolled them as well, so we did all that for their socialization. They are adults now and have been good at making new friends, joining clubs, volunteering and networking, so I think it was time and money well spent.

I think it depends where you live. Growing up in a factory town I don't think most of the families in my neighborhood spent $50 let alone $500 a month on activities for their kids.

 

[ivinsfan]

It ran my sister close to that for dance for my niece. Between classes, outfits, performing, travel, etc. It might seem silly and unnecessary, but it taught her far more than just dancing. She loved it and was good, made great friends, became a leader in the group helping teach younger kids, developed a lot of athleticism, etc. We also found it kept her occupied and engaged so much she avoided a lot of the less positive opportunities that are more typical for teenagers.

In retrospect now, money well spent.

I never said it was silly or unnecessary but there sure is a middle ground between wanting your kids to read books all day and spending 500 bucks a month for electives.