Another Messy estate

[thatguy]

What happens if we don't open an estate?
There a house with a mortgage and a home equity loan, a bunch of known debts, and a bunch we've not confirmed, and a vehicle loan on a truck that is out there somewhere with his felon girlfriend. When all is settled there's not going to be much left. 2 life insurances exclude his only living family member, my wife. I don't want any contact with the GF or her family. I don't see where they did anything but fake affection and take his money. I think it was mostly a phone relationship with an occasional visit to get funds.

His checking account was POD to my wife. It won't cover the funeral cost.

So what happens if we walk away? What are our responsibilities from just collecting the asset & debt information? What do we do with this stuff?

I think the bank will foreclose, no estate will be opened, and nobody else will be paid.

I'm 77 and my time is too precious for this crap. At this point any money to be gained from this estate is meaningless.

 

[Bamaman]

It's not necessarily your responsibility to liquidate another's assets or deal with their liabilities.

If you know who's the bank/finance company where the car is financed, call and them who has the car.

If you choose to walk away from the situation, it's all up to you. No one can blame you for someone who never chose to take care of their own business.

 

[ERD50]

Yes, walk away. But check the procedures/process in your state and county. If you or your wife are actually named in any documents, the procedure to decline responsibility may be spelled out there.

-ERD50

 

[finnski1]

Sounds like a mess. I'd wash my hands of it as much as possible, hopefully completely as the others have already said.

 

[phil1ben]

This depends widely on the laws of the state where the decedent (dead beat) died. You don't state if your wife or yourself were named as Executor in a Will.

Assuming that there is a Will, you can have personal liability to other beneficiaries for failure to act as Executor as required under the Will. Almost all states have a procedure for you to "renounce" your obligations as the nominated executor. It may require you to file a simple Renunciation with the Surrogates Court.

If you do not want to hire a lawyer, I would contact the Surrogate in the county where the decedent resided and ask them how to renounce your obligations.

 

[street]

So, what is your wife's view of the situation?

 

[athena53]

My Ex died penniless in FL with a lot of debts- he was an alcoholic and had been living off SS and needs-based social programs for years. DS was his next-of-kin. An attorney we consulted in KS said we didn't need to open estate proceedings and if a creditor contacted us we should explain the circumstances and tell them that THEY were free to open estate proceedings if they wanted to, No one ever contacted us. I hope this applies in your state.

 

[Aerides]

This depends widely on the laws of the state where the decedent (dead beat) died. You don't state if your wife or yourself were named as Executor in a Will.

Assuming that there is a Will, you can have personal liability to other beneficiaries for failure to act as Executor as required under the Will. Almost all states have a procedure for you to "renounce" your obligations as the nominated executor. It may require you to file a simple Renunciation with the Surrogates Court.

If you do not want to hire a lawyer, I would contact the Surrogate in the county where the decedent resided and ask them how to renounce your obligations.

Does this assume the OP/wife originally signed up and legally agreed to be executor? IE, the deceased can't just put in a will saying "Thatguy gets to do all this" without his express agreement in advance?

Yes, assuming there is no documented legal obligation, I'd walk away and say I'm out.

 

[pb4uski]

Yes, assuming that your wife isn't named on any of the decedent's assets or debts then just stay out of it. If the decedent didn't name her on any of his insurance policies then she doesn't owe him the time of day in my opinion.

I guess that it is possible that a creditor may try to claim the POD checking account to settle any money owed, but it seems unlikely. I'd let the POD checking account sit dormant for a year or so and if no creditor comes along claiming it then close it out and keep the money.

 

[SecondCor521]

Since your wife was POD on the checking account but it sounds like the estate is bankrupt, I think the proper and polite thing to do would be to renounce or disclaim that checking account back to the estate. Those assets should go towards his funeral costs, taxes, and debts both from a legal and ethical point of view. Check with the bank and/or the state on how to do this, but it should be a simple letter to the probate court with perhaps a cc: to the bank.

If your wife *knows* there is a will (doubtful that there is) *and* if she's listed as the executor (possible), then I would also have her disclaim that responsibility if she doesn't want it.

At that point I think it's fine to wash your hands of the situation.

 

[ncbill]

Sure there's not enough equity in the house to make it worthwhile, given gangbuster home prices at this time, and the fact that your wife is the only living relative (assuming he died intestate)?

I recently handled an estate for a close relative who borrowed literally as much as they could against their home via a mortgage refinance and later a HELOC, but in the end I was able to realize a little less than half (~45%) of the home's selling price for the beneficiaries.

 

[Amethyst]

I think OP's 1st post mentioned having checked "what would be left" after all the loans are paid, or if the bank forecloses. And it wasn't worth it to him.

Sure there's not enough equity in the house to make it worthwhile, given gangbuster home prices at this time, and the fact that your wife is the only living relative (assuming he died intestate)?

I recently handled an estate for a close relative who borrowed literally as much as they could against their home via a mortgage refinance and later a HELOC, but in the end I was able to realize a little less than half (~45%) of the home's selling price for the beneficiaries.

 

[JRon]

Generally speaking if your wife didn’t sign anything, she isn’t responsible for anything. As most have said and I agree - walk away.

 

[brett]

Don't walk away. RUN away.

It was some other guy, you did not see him, and he went that way.

Life is far to short for that nonsense. As others have said....let the process take over.

Something similar happened to a family friend. Other than having three card creditors call and 'try it on' by implying that they should pay the brother's debt when they had zero legal liability for it. Nice try but it did not work.

 

[38Chevy454]

I had kind of similar situation, my aunt died without any heirs, me being nephew closest relative. She had no assets and debts (mostly medical related debt), besides her old vehicle. I contacted an estate attorney in her state (always better when the deceased is 1000+ miles away.....) and the attorney advised to just let it be and to not do a thing. The state took care of the cremation and any small assets that may have been in the checking account. I told the friend of hers where vehicle was left to just wait and file for abandoned vehicle after 6-12 months. Was not worth me even pursuing to get the vehicle as a probate asset. That's the only way I could get access to it or anything. Way too much hassle for no benefit.

Interestingly, the way I even found out she had died was from the funeral home, who somehow got my name and my sister's name and sent us mail. I told them to deal with the state. I fortunately had known the friend's name and phone number where the vehicle was, otherwise it would have been eventually picked up as abandoned.


So as several previous replies have said, just walk away and do not get involved. States have rules on how to deal with indigent person deaths.

 

[thatguy]

We arranged his burial so we're on the hook for that. There are already owned grave sites. The POD account will cover part of it.

 

[Koolau]

Yes, walk away. But check the procedures/process in your state and county. If you or your wife are actually named in any documents, the procedure to decline responsibility may be spelled out there.

-ERD50

I think most stuff will just "go away" eventually, but anything to do with taxes may haunt you. When mom passed, she had been sold (35 years before) a plot of land, ostensibly at a resort. The county eventually declared the land "unbuildable" reducing it's value to less than zero. The county still sent her tax bills every year and she paid them. When she passed they tried to charge ME as her POA. Mom's lawyer, in settling her estate had written to the co. that NO ONE was inheriting the land and they were welcome to it. STILL, for 15 years, the co. dunned me - they even found me in Hawaii. I contacted them a few times but got no where. Finally, the dunning letter stopped. Dealing with "officialdom" is an exercise designed to teach you patience. For-profit organizations cut their losses when they know that no one is going to pay.

I'd run all this by an attorney since YMMV.

 

[Sunset]

We arranged his burial so we're on the hook for that. There are already owned grave sites. The POD account will cover part of it.

Too bad about the cost. I'd take the POD account as it's clearly not part of the estate (not a lawyer here so could be totally wrong ).

This is actually something I'm wondering, if a person has POD for ALL accounts, how does the "estate" pay to bury the person, income taxes, debts etc

 

[thatguy]

Went through the house looking for any pertaining documents today. Found the old family 8mm home movies we feared were lost. No will.
There are IRS letters about unpaid fed taxes. IRS guy told us we should file some form 56 that creates a fiduciary relationship. Not do'in it.
There's a pole barn full of tools and a big model railroad collection in the basement.
Still waiting on a more complete house appraisal. The appraisal guy is doing some title check stuff.
If there's to be a probate, the lawyers gotta do the work, I'll gather up whatever info I can find but I'm not running my ass off for this. Maybe I can get the house put up for sale and get somebody to auction off his stuff.
I'm trying to make a case for walking away but thinking probate is the only way to end it cleanly.

 

[ERD50]

Went through the house looking for any pertaining documents today. Found the old family 8mm home movies we feared were lost. No will.
There are IRS letters about unpaid fed taxes. IRS guy told us we should file some form 56 that creates a fiduciary relationship. Not do'in it.
There's a pole barn full of tools and a big model railroad collection in the basement.
Still waiting on a more complete house appraisal. The appraisal guy is doing some title check stuff.
If there's to be a probate, the lawyers gotta do the work, I'll gather up whatever info I can find but I'm not running my ass off for this. Maybe I can get the house put up for sale and get somebody to auction off his stuff.
I'm trying to make a case for walking away but thinking probate is the only way to end it cleanly.

I am not a lawyer, but this isn't making sense to me. If you want to walk away (likely the best move), then do it. I don't think you can do it half way. I expect any involvement may get you legally entangled.

Find out the process to disassociate yourself. Don't do anything else.

-ERD50

 

[pb4uski]

+1. It sounds like the OP and his DW (the decedent's ex-wife) are getting sucked into the void.

The best thing to do is nothing. Since you've already started the funeral arrangements follow through with that... that will also take care of the POD money. Then step aside and if you can find her tell the GF that she is in charge... she's probably stupid enough to think that there might be something in it for her and might eagerly take it.

Otherwise it is just a huge time consuming black hole.

 

[street]

I am not a lawyer, but this isn't making sense to me. If you want to walk away (likely the best move), then do it. I don't think you can do it half way. I expect any involvement may get you legally entangled.

Find out the process to disassociate yourself. Don't do anything else.

-ERD50

^ I agree, don't think it works both ways, like you are doing.

 

[Aerides]

I am not a lawyer, but this isn't making sense to me. If you want to walk away (likely the best move), then do it. I don't think you can do it half way. I expect any involvement may get you legally entangled.

Find out the process to disassociate yourself. Don't do anything else.

-ERD50

I think this is key. Do something and you are involved. Do nothing, and you are not. Not well, we have this lying here and it will help. Not anything. Not your circus, and stick to that. Stop answering the phone calls, refuse the mail.

At most, find a completely different probate lawyer, and pay for a 1 hour consultation to understand how to protect yourself.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

I think this is key. Do something and you are involved. Do nothing, and you are not. Not well, we have this lying here and it will help. Not anything. Not your circus, and stick to that. Stop answering the phone calls, refuse the mail.

At most, find a completely different probate lawyer, and pay for a 1 hour consultation to understand how to protect yourself.

That last part is particularly good advice (although I also second the first part ). I did exactly that; I got a referral from our estate lawyer in our home state to an estate lawyer where my DF passed away, and paid for one hour with that lawyer on the specifics of how to avoid probate (NYS has decent exceptions), and we had a few minutes so she even called one of his banks that had given me a problem with his POA, and that sure got their attention! I felt a lot better dealing with his estate after that.

 

[cathy63]

Went through the house looking for any pertaining documents today. Found the old family 8mm home movies we feared were lost. No will.
There are IRS letters about unpaid fed taxes. IRS guy told us we should file some form 56 that creates a fiduciary relationship. Not do'in it.
There's a pole barn full of tools and a big model railroad collection in the basement.
Still waiting on a more complete house appraisal. The appraisal guy is doing some title check stuff.
If there's to be a probate, the lawyers gotta do the work, I'll gather up whatever info I can find but I'm not running my ass off for this. Maybe I can get the house put up for sale and get somebody to auction off his stuff.
I'm trying to make a case for walking away but thinking probate is the only way to end it cleanly.

You cannot put the house up for sale or auction off the stuff unless you start probate and get the court to appoint yourself or your wife as the legal representative.

You also can't take anything from the house until that's done. That's theft. (I get why you'd take the family movies, and think you should, but don't tell anyone else you have them until everything is settled one way or the other.)

If you become the estate's legal representative, then you do have a fiduciary responsibility to pay the IRS and all other creditors in the proper order. There are state laws that list the order that claimants get paid and you need to research your state's law. I think the IRS is usually first in line, then the mortgage and/or HELOC since they're secured by the house; after that you can pay for a funeral, medical debt, outstanding bills, etc. Since you know there are unpaid taxes, you need to be extremely careful not to spend any of the estate's funds on the funeral, even if you decide not to open probate. The IRS can and will come after you personally if you take money from the estate that they later decide should be theirs. The POD account belongs to your wife now and she can spend that money, anything else has to stay in the estate until the creditors are paid.