Beware. Socialism is Everywhere

[brewer12345]

Easy to say when you're not going to be the number one taxed State in the Union............

Um, I live in NJ. I don't know for sure which 7 states are more taxed than Wisconsin, but I would be very much surprised if one of them was not NJ.

 

[Gumby]

I just quickly read through this, but it seems that if employers are actually paying 15% of payroll on average for health care, this may actually be a bargain for them. I see that it also eliminates Medicaid, which should lower taxes.

Frankly, if it were my choice, I would eliminate the insurance companies as well and have the state pay the hospitals/doctors directly.

 

[Gumby]

Um, I live in NJ. I don't know for sure which 7 states are more taxed than Wisconsin, but I would be very much surprised if one of them was not NJ.

According to this http://www.census.gov/govs/statetax/05staxrank.html 2005 data from the census bureau, Wisconsin was number 13 in per capita taxation, New Jersey was number 8 and my home, Connecticut, was number 4.

 

[brewer12345]

Frankly, if it were my choice, I would eliminate the insurance companies as well and have the state pay the hospitals/doctors directly.

That would almost certainly make reform a non-starter. But I think that would be my choice too.

 

[Texas Proud]

Here is an interesting discussion on the pros and cons of free market delivery of healthcare from a consulting firm in the UK. It doesn't seem to matter what kind of system you have, someone will always be complaining about it.

A market solution might be efficient, but I don't think it would be equitable. Our system is a mess. Whether it's more of a mess than the NHS in the UK depends on where you sit. Bottom line: we spend a lot more per capita than anywhere else in the world and have 47 million uninsured.

Quoting from the article:

"Within most societies there exists, in some form or another, a concern that health care resources and benefits should be distributed in some fair or just way"

From where I sit, this should be the starting point for any discussion. If you don't agree with this premise, what do you offer as an alternative starting point other than: It's all about me?

Being someone that was in the British system for a year (and thankfully I did not have to use it) I can say that it is not even close to our system IF you have insurance. I talked to many of my employees who had to wait to get test done, to get operations etc... it seems that rationing was the name of the game...

And surprisingly the biggest growing benefit from companies when I was there in 2000 was health care insurance!!! So you could go to a private doctor instead of the public ones.

A major difference between the UK and the US is the income of a doctor... over there they are paid very little, so the best and the brightest do not become doctors as they are paid like school teachers.


In you article...

Serious problems
What about the criticisms of the NHS? Many people believe that the NHS suffers from serious problems.

1. The critics argue that insufficient resources have been devoted to health care so that there is less care than consumers would like. This is a consequence of funding the service from taxation - there is no mechanism whereby consumers can signal their willingness to pay more. According to this view the fact that the UK spends less of its GDP on health care than other developed countries reflects a weakness of the NHS rather than evidence of its efficiency. This also explains why the NHS appears to be in continual financial crisis - waiting lists, closed wards and an inability to treat particular patients or particular conditions all reflect a failure to devote sufficient resources to health care.
   
   2. The system is not sensitive to consumer preferences. Doctors have considerable independence or clinical autonomy. They make decisions about patients' treatment with little reference to either the patients or the managerial structure of the NHS. This has resulted in a system which is unwieldy and difficult to control and not responsive to consumer demand.
2. The NHS is not as efficient as it could be. Some hospitals need to be closed and the resources transferred into community health care. But opponents, including some doctors, have successfully delayed, and in some cases prevented, such changes from occurring. They argue that the closure of any hospital is a loss of NHS services regardless of how the resources made available may be used to provide other, more valuable, kinds of health care.

 

[Fireup2020]

Dang Brewer, if you'd have joined the military and retired from there, you'd be ER'd by now - and this would be a moot point for you

 

[Texas Proud]

My view of healthcare is this:

The healthcare system in the US is the best in the world! if you have enough money to afford it that is... If I was a milionnaire living anywhere in the world and I was diagnosed with a rare or terminal disease which required top notch care, I would without a doubt come to the US to be treated. But the problem is not every US citizen can afford to use that great healthcare system and there is no alternative for those people.

In my opinion healthcare is a matter of compassion. It is the moral obligation to help those who suffer when we have the power (and technology) to do so, no matter who they are or how much they make. Cost should never be the first consideration. With a private healthcare system cost is always the first consideration because healthcare companies are not in the business of compassion, they are in the business of making money.

Sorry to say I disagree with this opinion... there are many medical procedures that are very expensive and if the person does not have insurance OR the ability to pay they should not be able to get them... I don't think we should be doing heart transplants for the illegal immigrant that wandered into our country.

 

[brewer12345]

Dang Brewer, if you'd have joined the military and retired from there, you'd be ER'd by now - and this would be a moot point for you

Not old enough to have earned military healthcare benefits. Doesn't that take 20 years? Do veterans benefits cover the rest of the family, or just the vet?

Besides, they would have booted me pretty quickly. I'm not one to take orders that I don't agree with, at least not without complaint.

 

[Texas Proud]

According to this http://www.census.gov/govs/statetax/05staxrank.html 2005 data from the census bureau, Wisconsin was number 13 in per capita taxation, New Jersey was number 8 and my home, Connecticut, was number 4.

Wow... I am in #49, but my amount is much higher than the per capita amount.

 

[ziggy29]

Sorry to say I disagree with this opinion... there are many medical procedures that are very expensive and if the person does not have insurance OR the ability to pay they should not be able to get them... I don't think we should be doing heart transplants for the illegal immigrant that wandered into our country.

There are always going to be a few situations where people can disagree, even if they think "something needs to be done" to inject more government into health care:

• Treatment of illegal aliens, particularly expensive and non-preventative procedures
• Elective and cosmetic surgeries (except, perhaps, to correct a disfigurement caused by accident or necessary medical procedure)
• End of life "heroic efforts" which cost tens of thousands to prolong an obviously terminal life (obviously, pain management needs to continue)
• Expensive treatment of conditions caused by self-abusing behavior (i.e. liver transplants for alcoholics)

One can mostly be in favor of health care reform and "universal coverage" but recognize that when the taxpayer is on the hook, some strings have to be attached.

 

[haha]

Sorry to say I disagree with this opinion... there are many medical procedures that are very expensive and if the person does not have insurance OR the ability to pay they should not be able to get them... I don't think we should be doing heart transplants for the illegal immigrant that wandered into our country.

Agree completely. Whatever we do it should be done for citizens only, or people who are legally on the path to becoming citizens. If we are not already a Spanish speaking country in 10 years or so, we will come around to this.

See how Switzerland is going. And the Swiss are famously humane but also rational. We OTOH are chaotic and irrational. We go to Iraq and kill people randomly at great cost; meanwhile we take care of any illiterate who manages to sneak into our country, also at great cost.

Sounds brilliant!

Ha

 

[brewer12345]

According to this http://www.census.gov/govs/statetax/05staxrank.html 2005 data from the census bureau, Wisconsin was number 13 in per capita taxation, New Jersey was number 8 and my home, Connecticut, was number 4.

This is state taxes only. I wonder what things would look like if you tossed in median or average RE taxes. I bet TX would be a lot further up the list.

 

[REWahoo]

This is state taxes only. I wonder what things would look like if you tossed in median or average RE taxes. I bet TX would be a lot further up the list.

Yep.

 

[ziggy29]

This is state taxes only. I wonder what things would look like if you tossed in median or average RE taxes. I bet TX would be a lot further up the list.

It would be higher but probably not as much as one would first think.

That's because Texas has relatively low property values, which at least partially offset one of the higher property tax *rates* in the country.

Now if you take a state like New Jersey -- with a high rate *and* high housing prices -- OUCH. At least the Texas property tax is a high rate applied to a relatively low valuation.

 

[FinanceDude]

This is state taxes only. I wonder what things would look like if you tossed in median or average RE taxes. I bet TX would be a lot further up the list.

Plus, throw in the highest gas tax in the country, perhaps the highest cigarette tax in the country, etc..........

It's not ALL about state and federal tax, the local taxes are onerous...........

 

[FinanceDude]

Agree completely. Whatever we do it should be done for citizens only, or people who are legally on the path to becoming citizens. If we are not already a Spanish speaking country in 10 years or so, we will come around to this.

See how Switzerland is going. And the Swiss are famously humane but also rational. We OTOH are chaotic and irrational. We go to Iraq and kill people randomly at great cost; meanwhile we take care of any illiterate who manages to sneak into our country, also at great cost.

Sounds brilliant!

Ha

Be careful for what you wish for:

CF&P Foundation Prosperitas, February 2007: The Swiss Tax System -- Key Features and Lessons for Policy Makers

 

[Rustic23]

Brewer,
Retire from the military with 20 years and you and your spouse your kids (up to 21 I think in school) covered. If you die, they are still covered.

 

[brewer12345]

Brewer,
Retire from the military with 20 years and you and your spouse your kids (up to 21 I think in school) covered. If you die, they are still covered.

Thought so. Benefit wouldn't be worth much if it didn't include the family.

But thanks, I won't be joining up any time soon.

 

[Rustic23]

I was going to send the recruiter over, guess I'll have to give him a call and tell him never mind.

 

[brewer12345]

I was going to send the recruiter over, guess I'll have to give him a call and tell him never mind.

Was it the uniform in my avatar that fooled you?

 

[FinanceDude]

I was going to send the recruiter over, guess I'll have to give him a call and tell him never mind.

Do they need 40 year old guys with bad knees?

 

[Rustic23]

Definitely the avatar!

 

[FIREd]

Sorry to say I disagree with this opinion... there are many medical procedures that are very expensive and if the person does not have insurance OR the ability to pay they should not be able to get them... I don't think we should be doing heart transplants for the illegal immigrant that wandered into our country.

Off course if someone wants breast augmentation surgery, we (as a society) should not pay for it! But if you have high blood pressure you inherited from your parents (and not because you are overdosing on chips while lounging in front of the TV) and you can't afford your high blood pressure medication (which can be very expensive), are you saying that we should stand back, do nothing until you show up at the ER with a heart attack or a stroke? Plus I didn't say that cost was not an issue. I said it should not be the primary concern of your doctor. His primary concern should be your health.

And while I agree that we don't owe nothing to illegals, I still think we should treat them as human beings and not as pests...

 

[FIREd]

See how Switzerland is going. And the Swiss are famously humane but also rational.

I should know! I come from Geneva, Switzerland!