CFLs

[Puzzley]

Yes, I have a number of CFL's in enclosed fixtures, and no problems. In fact, even less problems due to so much less heat produced...

 

[calmloki]

I've heard that putting CFLs into enclosed fixtures is a bad idea. Anybody know why? And anybody doing it with long-term success?

Dunno, but recently replaced a CFL in a 2-bulb enclosed kitchen ceiling light that had gone bad. It was paired with an incandescent (my idea - instant on + efficiency). The plastic CFL base was deformed and discolored from the heat. Guessing that the CFL wasn't up to the heat produced by the incandescent and failed.

 

[ERD50]

I really wonder about some of the comments that people have replaced 70% or more of their incandescent bulbs. Unless your usage is far different from mine, this could be bad for the environment.

As RunningBum said, incandescents are best in some applications. I also hope they are not banned.

The savings (and mercury offset from a coal plant) are based on using the bulb for something like 3 hours a day. I have not seen real good numbers on this, but clearly a CFL takes MORE energy and resources to produce and recycle than to just produce an incandescent - it's heavier, uses more glass, has embedded electronic circuits, etc. So, if you only use it only occasionally, your net energy use, and impact on the environment is very likely to be negative.

One morning, after reading about ideas to ban incandescents, I walked through our house as I had my morning cup of coffee. I tallied up the light bulbs. Of course, I can't find that sheet now, but it was an exaggerated Pareto Principle. I'd say just 10% of our lights are actually used the most, and several of those I have already put CFLs in. One is a long-tube fluorescent, which is even more efficient. Some of the others are on dimmers, and I'm not changing the dimmer, or paying $10 each for a dimable CFL.

I don't think replacing closet bulbs, or any other bulb that is used for just minutes/day on average makes economic or environmental sense. Of course, that won't stop our politicians from banning the incandescents, because it is such a 'feel good' measure, rather than anything truly constructive. Just what they are best at - and the public eats it up.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

My ideal spot was my living room where I have two wall sconces, with an up light and a down light each. I turn those lights on from dark til bed time. I put one in and it worked fine, though the light wasn't as soft as I'd have liked. Put the other 3 in, and all 4 just get a weak flicker and never come on. Why would this be? Is the fixture not giving enough power?

RB, is that circuit on any sort of electronic timer? My outside lights are on one. That timer needs a small 'trickle current' to keep it active. It gets that in an incandescent light - the element provides a current path even when 'off'. CFLs do not provide a path like that because of the electronic circuit in them.

My 'solution' was to put one or two 25W incandescents on that circuit (there are six outside lights total for me, 2 at the front door, 4 around the garage doors), and the remaining 4 are CFLS. That worked fine. W/o at least one regular bulb in there to provide the path, the timer would just flash on/off. I've seen that with light sensing ones too (on/off at dusk).

-ERD50

 

[RunningBum]

RB, is that circuit on any sort of electronic timer? My outside lights are on one. That timer needs a small 'trickle current' to keep it active. It gets that in an incandescent light - the element provides a current path even when 'off'. CFLs do not provide a path like that because of the electronic circuit in them.

My 'solution' was to put one or two 25W incandescents on that circuit (there are six outside lights total for me, 2 at the front door, 4 around the garage doors), and the remaining 4 are CFLS. That worked fine. W/o at least one regular bulb in there to provide the path, the timer would just flash on/off. I've seen that with light sensing ones too (on/off at dusk).

-ERD50

Thanks for the reply, but no timer. And unfortunately it's at my other house so I won't be able to try or check anything (like seeing what else is on the circuit) for a couple more months, but if you or anyone else has another suggestion I'd definitely check it out then.

Probably my best hope will be to contact the electrician who wired the house. I was just hoping for some tip like yours that might apply to what I'm seeing.

 

[ERD50]

Thanks for the reply, but no timer. And unfortunately it's at my other house so I won't be able to try or check anything (like seeing what else is on the circuit) for a couple more months, but if you or anyone else has another suggestion I'd definitely check it out then.

Probably my best hope will be to contact the electrician who wired the house. I was just hoping for some tip like yours that might apply to what I'm seeing.

Strange. No dimmer ether, I assume?

It is unlikely to be low voltage at the sockets. The reg bulbs draw more power, so they would load the circuit, and lower the voltage more than the CFLs. So, one CFL and 3 reg bulbs would be the worst case loading on the circuit. That should make the one CFL flicker if it was a load problem on that circuit.

But just for grins, when you get back, try 1, then 2, and then 3 CFLs with the rest reg. That might tell you something. You can also get a cheap meter to check the voltage. Maybe one high output CFL and one low watt reg bulb in each fixture would work for you?

-ERD50

 

[Zathras]

Any chance that if you turn the switch to the lights off and on any of the bulbs not lit up before start up?
I have seen that if the bulb has a bad balist.

 

[RunningBum]

I'm pretty sure there is a dimmer on the circuit, but definitely not on this switch.

I know when I tried one CFL and 3 regular it worked fine. I don't think I tried 2 or 3 CFL.

I could try each CFL with 3 regular to make sure all of the CFLs are good. It did kind of seem like a ballast issue if they have the same symptoms as flourescents, where they will kind of flicker for awhile before going on, or just staying in flicker. I was thinking that one bad ballast shouldn't affect the other CFLs. I did try off and on, and leaving it on for a few minutes, no change.

Mixing one of each probably would be ok if it works. I'd have to see how it looks with different light qualities between top and bottom. Both top and bottom are open so there shouldn't be a heat issue like the one poster had.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[ERD50]

I'm pretty sure there is a dimmer on the circuit, but definitely not on this switch.
.

It just might be possible that a nearby dimmer is creating some line noise that is interfering with the CFLs. The reg bulbs could be absorbing that noise (being a resistive load). So, as you replace reg bulbs with CFL, the noise increases, and finally starts the CFLs into flickering.

Just a theory, and a pretty weak one, but it could be.

Let us know if you find out - I'm getting curious now!

-ERD50

 

[FinanceGeek]

We tried CFLs perhaps 8 yrs ago, buying around 2 dozen bulbs of various wattages (from what I recall most were made by an outfit called Feit Electric).

It was a horrible experience. Most of the bulbs were very dim relative to their alleged "wattage equivalent" in the incandescent world, several buzzed, two "smoked" when their ballast resistors caught fire. We found that they worked very poorly in outdoor/garage fixtures when it was cold out. We eventually switched back to incandescents as the CFLs failed. I think now, 8 yrs later or so, perhaps 3 or 4 of the original 2 dozen or so CFLs are still alive and well.

I see now that perhaps we were early to the game with CFLs and despite prior experience I might try again at some point.

 

[Texas Proud]

ERD50

Yes... I think you are probably right on the less used lights... I have 4 naked bulbs in a toilet room... have been there since the previous owner which is 20 years ago... I am amazed that not even one has gone out as the lights are used at least once a day and sometimes more... but only for a short time (well, sometimes longer, but TMI)...

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Spouse is really looking forward to mainstream LEDs...

I wanted to replace our 17 year old buzzing fluorescent kitchen undercabinet lights, two of three missing their diffuser covers, with LED's since we leave the dang things on almost all the time. There was nothing at the major hardware stores and what I found online was about $100 per 'bar'.

I happened to be in walmart and stopped to look at some outdoor CFL's for my front lighting and saw three packs of LED "pucks" for $19 each. The pucks wire directly to 120v without a transformer and have little mini-usb type 'daisy chain' cables so you can hook them up in series. I bought three packs for under $60.

I replaced two 17w and a 13w fluorescent bars with 2, 3 and 4 puck 'strings', cut the ends off the 120v cord and wired them in with a small plastic junction box, stapled up the cords, and voila...cheap LED lighting. Theres about a 3" recessed lip around the bottom of the cabinets, so you have to stick your head under the cabinet to see, but while it looks unconventional its not unattractive.

The pucks look to have about 25 white led's, and they take 2.5w per puck. So its about 22.5 watts total replacing 47w of fluorescent. Seems to me that they throw quite a bit more light. Its sort of a stark, cold light but I actually like it quite a bit. I like that if I want a little more light I could just stick another puck under the cabinet and daisy chain it to the existing set, couple of staples, done.

Wife Acceptance Factor is very good. Due to the energy savings, I've been able to lower my pants about 1" below the armpits and am now allowing some kids to play on my lawn.

Heres what they look like: LED Accent Lights Category Menu

My wife also has this mild dissatisfaction with fluorescent replacements, but also doesnt notice when I replace one and dont tell her.

I actually like that CFL's take a half minute or so to fully warm up. Its nice to not be blasted in the face by full wattage when flipping on a light in the middle of the night.

I also put in a 250w equivalent Fluorex fixture out back, and it completely lights up our very big back yard. Its supposed to provide a light similar to sunlight and be the warmest artificial lighting, but it looks more like a fluorescent to me than sunlight. Not displeasing though, and no buzzing or funny color effects like sodium or mercury lamps.

 

[justin]

ERD,

I agree about "CFL's in appropriate places, only". The places where we rarely use light have not received the CFL upgrade. Specifically, the laundry nook, foyer, and outside lights. I've also heard that temperature and humidity extremes can impact CFL lifespans and quality, hence another reason I don't have them installed outside.

 

[mickeyd]

I've also heard that temperature and humidity extremes can impact CFL lifespans and quality, hence another reason I don't have them installed outside.

My oldest CFLs are the ones that I installed outside a long time ago. All are still working as good today as they did back then.

 

[calmloki]

My oldest CFLs are the ones that I installed outside a long time ago. All are still working as good today as they did back then.

Ditto - we have them in wall sconces along our apartment walkways - they are on a timer that has them on about 13 hours (evening to early morning). Very few failures - slower to come to full bright when it's cold, but no flicker or problem once they've hit their stride. They are getting better - used to be i had 4' flourescents in the garage and they were miserable in the cold.

 

[TromboneAl]

Like all fluorescent lamps, CFLs contain a small amount of mercury—an average of 5
milligrams (mg) per bulb. By comparison, some watch batteries contain 25mg of mercury, and many manual thermostats contain up to 3,000mg.

Although the daylight color isn't as warm and fuzzy feeling, I find that it's best for reading.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Its a lot easier to contain a little bit of properly disposed mercury than a whole #^@#%load of pollution from generating 3-4x the electricity...

 

[ERD50]

Its a lot easier to contain a little bit of properly disposed mercury than a whole #^@#%load of pollution from generating 3-4x the electricity...

Correct. I just hope they really set up good recycling programs for them.

In my neck of the woods, you may need to wait for an assigned 'recycling day' with limited hours for certain things, then drive maybe 15 miles, and then wait in line to properly dispose of some things (fluorescent lights included). I do it, but I imagine that many people with less time on their hands, or just less motivation, just throw them in the trash. I can hardly blame them, but I still will.

-ERD50

 

[Jeb-NY]

I also have replaced all the heavily used lamps with CFL. I was an early adapter but did it slowly as they got better and cheaper. The dimming over time is the most annoying part. One lamp in the living room we use for reading was finally converted a few years ago when they came out with good 100W equivalent bulbs. This lamp is on anytime we are in the living room and I find it really needs to be replaced every 6-12 months depending on when I remember to pick up a replacement. I then shuffle the dimmed 100W equivalent to a location that I would have used a 60W in.

We have several light fixtures that have the frosted glass chimneys to make them look like oil lamps. I fine the long U shaped bulbs work great in them. Since they are in hallways it is easier to justify leaving those lights on in the evening since they don't use much power and two are in hard to reach spots so the long life is nice.

We designed a lot of indirect florescent lighting into house when we built it 25+ years ago including a double 8 footer in the living room that we use when we need more light. It is hidden from view unless you look up close to the wall. For those that did not know, if you go to a bigger electrical supply they sell the long tubes (4' and 8') in different color temperatures, they cost more but the one intended to blend into tungsten lighting look very good. And I have only replaced them once in 25 years. The ones in the kitchen were picked to be whiter than the normal greenish florescence to make food look good.

Jeb

 

[TromboneAl]

Up the road, near Redwood National Park, there's a small place with a number of cabins that just opened up. They're positioning themselves for eco-tourism. They had a grand opening tour, and I noticed there wasn't a fluorescent tube or CFL in the whole place.

 

[REWahoo]

...I noticed there wasn't a fluorescent tube or CFL in the whole place.

With candles and kerosene lamps, whydya need CFL bulbs?

 

[Texas Proud]

Correct. I just hope they really set up good recycling programs for them.

In my neck of the woods, you may need to wait for an assigned 'recycling day' with limited hours for certain things, then drive maybe 15 miles, and then wait in line to properly dispose of some things (fluorescent lights included). I do it, but I imagine that many people with less time on their hands, or just less motivation, just throw them in the trash. I can hardly blame them, but I still will.

-ERD50

Blame away... I will not do that.. heck, what is the pollution etc. if everybody drove 15 miles (or 30 round trip) to get rid of a CFL once or twice a year?

In 5 years I have had 6 or 8 burn out... my tubes in the kitchen are 20 years old (but one is getting a bit iffy)... I don't think that there is a lot going in the land fill...

 

[RunningBum]

Strange. No dimmer ether, I assume?

It is unlikely to be low voltage at the sockets. The reg bulbs draw more power, so they would load the circuit, and lower the voltage more than the CFLs. So, one CFL and 3 reg bulbs would be the worst case loading on the circuit. That should make the one CFL flicker if it was a load problem on that circuit.

But just for grins, when you get back, try 1, then 2, and then 3 CFLs with the rest reg. That might tell you something. You can also get a cheap meter to check the voltage. Maybe one high output CFL and one low watt reg bulb in each fixture would work for you?

-ERD50

OK, we need at least 2 active CFL threads, so I'll revive this one now that I'm back to try CFLs in my 2 sets of wall sconces that take two bulbs each.

I replaced one, happened to be in the opposite fixture I tried before. I put it in the socket pointing down, and it lit brightly, and the top one seemed brighter too. The other two on the other fixture dimmed considerably.

Put one in the bottom socket of the other fixture. Now THAT one went bright, top one seemed brighter, and the other two in the first fixture went real dim.

Did not try 3 bulbs. I'd need to take the cover off and stand on something and I've got too much else going right now.

I went back to 4 incandescents and I would say that all are dimmer than 4 60 W bulbs should be, but they are all at the same level--uniform brightness. I can look directly at the bulbs with no eye burning at all. I think it isn't at full power, perhaps intentionally, because it's a very pleasant light for background, nothing you'd want to try to read with. When a CFL is put in, the other fixture goes too dim to be useful and they are not a uniform brightness.

The fixtures say to use type A bulbs only, 60W max.

Maybe I'll play some more after I get unpacked and settled in.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Wow, that could be a bunch of things. Barring a dimmer being in the line (and I doubt thats the case), I'm going to guess that those lights are wired in series instead of in parallel.

What I mean by that is that the hot from the switch is feeding the hot on the first fixture, then the neutral from that light feeds the hot on the second, and so on, with the neutral on the last fixture coming back to neutral at the switch again.

That causes a sequential drop in voltage as you go down the line. Even the incandescent bulbs are probably getting dimmer as you go down the series, but its probably imperceptible.

Probably not the best way to wire it up, and depending on the setup you might be able to correct it so that the hot from the switch goes to the hot on all the lamps and the neutral all back to the switch. It was either hooked up wrong by the installer, or someone took a short cut.

Its also possible that each of the bulbs in the fixture is wired independently, and that just one of the four of them is wired in parallel to the other.

 

[RunningBum]

Wow, that could be a bunch of things. Barring a dimmer being in the line (and I doubt thats the case), I'm going to guess that those lights are wired in series instead of in parallel.

What I mean by that is that the hot from the switch is feeding the hot on the first fixture, then the neutral from that light feeds the hot on the second, and so on, with the neutral on the last fixture coming back to neutral at the switch again.

That causes a sequential drop in voltage as you go down the line. Even the incandescent bulbs are probably getting dimmer as you go down the series, but its probably imperceptible.

Probably not the best way to wire it up, and depending on the setup you might be able to correct it so that the hot from the switch goes to the hot on all the lamps and the neutral all back to the switch. It was either hooked up wrong by the installer, or someone took a short cut.

Its also possible that each of the bulbs in the fixture is wired independently, and that just one of the four of them is wired in parallel to the other.

Could be. I'm probably at the point where I'm quite happy with the light output with the old bulbs, so I'll just leave them. These are the lights that are on the longest by far (except for maybe the overhead kitchen flourescents and breakfast counter lights cans), so I'd love to get the CFL efficiency but maybe I'll just let them go, rather than figure out how to "fix" them and have them burn brighter than what I want.

Maybe I'll replace the cans that I use a lot, leave the extras to replace the other cans I rarely use til they're gone.

My favorite CFL application is the reading light. It's nice to read without having a hot lamp making it unfortable, especially in summer.