Dehumidifier in Basement Question

Obviously, here in our high-rise, there is no basement. BUT we're blessed with a stairwell that looks like it could withstand a Cat 5 hurricane - AND it is dry as a bone in there. If a hurricane comes calling, I can imagine taking the bug-out bag in there for 12 or 15 hours and making a picnic of it. Heh, heh, might be a bit hard sitting, but we'd grab a couple of folding chairs or cushions for sitting/sleeping.
 
I love my basement. My HVAC, water heater and laundry are down there so the two things prone to causing the most water damage if they fail won't affect my hardwood floors on the main level, and have floor drains nearby.

The basement also has an exercise room, large HO train layout, pool table, dart board, poker table and some great home theater recliners in front of 3 TVs for watching sports or movies, all in finished space, with a walkout to a deck. My lot slopes a lot, being on a mountain side, so a basement is pretty much a given and I can almost stand under that deck at one end. It's a really fun space, and I've enjoyed it for 21 years and hope for many more here until I need one level living.

Running two humidifiers down there for a few months is a small price to pay. One empties to a drain, but the other end of the basement doesn't have a drain so every couple of days I go down and empty the bin in the bar sink. Oh yeah, I also have a bar. I'm so glad I don't live in NOLA where I couldn't have a basement! :cool:
 
I also run a dehumififier in our NH basement.
Keeps tools rust free, no musty smell, no green drip marks on
floor from copper pipes, and also much less insect
and spider activity. Stored items dont get moldy.
Best thing to do.
 
I have experience that one of rain spout was broken at the foundation wall of the house but didnt noticed for a long time. I think it caused more damp
 
Didn't read the thread, but I just found a humidity controller on eBay or Amazon called Rainbird that was on the order of $30. You can set a humidify device and a dehumidify device. Each has a 110v socket. For the "condensation problem", I'm hooking up a fan and maybe an incandescent light bulb. It doesn't take much...no dehumidifier needed if you just don't want your denser objects to have condensation on them (crawl space / shed).
 
This doesn't help you but for others with just a crawl space -

We would come home from a week away and our house would smell musty and items in our enclosed closets would smell even when we were home. And, we left a box of old photos in a closet on the floor and they got ruined from the moisture.

We paid to have our crawl space sealed. Big rubber tarp sealed around the foundation and poles underneath, all the mold/mildew cleaned out from under the house and any holes to the house sealed.

No musty smell ever now. We have two sump pumps so lots of moisture and sealing the crawl space took care of the issue!
 
I actually run a dehumidifier in my garden shed for about 1 hr. starting now until Sept. It just keeps everything from getting moldy or rusty, and keeps the fertilizer from absorbing too much moisture.

I am using an old dehumidifier that probably lost some refrigerant. It freezes up after an hour anyway and doesn't work. So running it 1hr per day is good use of this old beast. I use an old fashioned heavy duty timer to run it. (The kind in the metal box with the metal wheel timer disk.)
 
Maybe this will turn into an "I love my basement" thread? I love my basement! It is a great place for the laundry, the exercise equipment, the furnace room, the workshop, storage areas, the cat litter--all sorts of stuff. Wouldn't be a house, to me, without one, but then every house I've lived in here in the Midwest has had one. A lot of our homes were built with one bathroom upstairs and a spare "stool" (as they are called) in the basement. That's what I currently have in this house.

Growing up in a house without air conditioning in the Chicago area, we beat the sultry summer days by chilling in the basement as well as sheltering from tornados.
 
Do you have your thermostat fan setting set to "On", or "Auto"? I had a problem a few years ago where I changed my fan to "On" in order to try and get my 2nd floor of my 2 story home cooler. This caused the fan to run all the time and blew humidity from my AC "A coil" back into the air, causing my basement humidity to rise significantly. I didn't know the cause at the time, so tried a lot of different things to fix it. Installed 2 de-humidifiers in the basement which ran constantly. Once someone helped me figure out the issue, I switched the fan back to "Auto", and my basement humidity has not been a problem since.
 
Auto. The problem you mention is a known issue and worse if you have a bit too much tonnage.

Some manufacturers have the fan run by default for a few minutes after the compressor turns off to extract more cool, even in auto mode This improves their public efficiency numbers at the cost of humidity. This duration time is usually configurable via dip switches or jumpers on the control board. Some can configure for 0, 30, 60 or 90 seconds. I set mine at 30. Seems to be a good compromise. This is advanced stuff and even some installers are clueless about these advanced settings.
 
Do you have your thermostat fan setting set to "On", or "Auto"? I had a problem a few years ago where I changed my fan to "On" in order to try and get my 2nd floor of my 2 story home cooler. This caused the fan to run all the time and blew humidity from my AC "A coil" back into the air, causing my basement humidity to rise significantly. ...

Auto. The problem you mention is a known issue and worse if you have a bit too much tonnage.

Some manufacturers have the fan run by default for a few minutes after the compressor turns off to extract more cool, even in auto mode This improves their public efficiency numbers at the cost of humidity. This duration time is usually configurable via dip switches or jumpers on the control board. Some can configure for 0, 30, 60 or 90 seconds. I set mine at 30. Seems to be a good compromise. This is advanced stuff and even some installers are clueless about these advanced settings.

I'm having a hard time with cause/effect here. I fail to see how having the fan run an extra 30 seconds versus 90 seconds is going to make any difference in humidity in the basement.

The coils are probably still cold enough to condense moisture, and if not, how is another 30 or 60 seconds of circulating that air going to change the humidity in the room?

I might see where having the fan on "ON" could cause a problem - that circulates the warmer air from upstairs to the cooler basement air. As mentioned earlier, cool air holds less moisture, so the warm air at a comfortable RH% will have a higher RH% when it mixes with the cool basement air.

But the explanation that it "blew humidity from my AC "A coil" back into the air, " makes no sense to me.

-ERD50
 
I might see where having the fan on "ON" could cause a problem - that circulates the warmer air from upstairs to the cooler basement air. As mentioned earlier, cool air holds less moisture, so the warm air at a comfortable RH% will have a higher RH% when it mixes with the cool basement air.

But the explanation that it "blew humidity from my AC "A coil" back into the air, " makes no sense to me.

-ERD50

Well, yes, "ON" all the time is the real problem. However, the post de-energize fan time matters. Does it matter to the point of dripping humidity? No. But it may be enough to up the RH a few percent to a tipping point.

I can't find the damn reference right now and I'm on my way to church. (Shouldn't have said "damn.") The point is there is a reason this time period is configurable due to this effect.

Gotta go, roast me over the coals for not having my references. I get a "D" on this paper. :)
 
I also run a dehumififier in our NH basement.
Keeps tools rust free, no musty smell, no green drip marks on
floor from copper pipes, and also much less insect
and spider activity. Stored items dont get moldy.
Best thing to do.
Also live in NH and we run a dehumidifier from May thru Sept/Oct and just set it on the auto level (have a floor drain and hose connected so know emptying required) that gets it to low humidity levels down there. Love having a basement as well. Lots of dry storage, place for boiler, laundry etc.
Built the house ourselves 23 years ago and was careful to have proper perimeter drains etc. Also made the poured concrete walls 10 inches thick rather than the standard 8 inches. Always bone dry down there and comfortable. I hate wet basements!
 
Well, yes, "ON" all the time is the real problem. However, the post de-energize fan time matters. Does it matter to the point of dripping humidity? No. But it may be enough to up the RH a few percent to a tipping point.

I can't find the damn reference right now and I'm on my way to church. (Shouldn't have said "damn.") The point is there is a reason this time period is configurable due to this effect.

Gotta go, roast me over the coals for not having my references. I get a "D" on this paper. :)

No problem, I know it may not seem like it sometimes, but we do have lives outside this forum! :)

But I would be curious to see any refs if/when you get time.

I think the off delay has a couple purposes. One is efficiency - might as well extract the residual heat or cold from the Heat exchanger or coils. Second, for heat, it keeps the heat exch from over-heating, which could happen if the residual heat was not drawn off, and it might help keep the coil from developing a coating of ice - those extra 30~90 seconds will draw off enough cold to bring it above freezing.

Might be a 3rd reason, can't think of it now - but I really can't imagine how a few extra seconds will affect humidity overall, it take maybe a half hour to see a change when it is running full bore.

edit/add: "The point is there is a reason this time period is configurable due to this effect." - I don't think the configuration is for that effect (which I don't believe exists!). I think the simple reason is to allow for different sized units/ducts, etc. with the same control board. The 90S setting might start blowing cold air in heat mode at the end of the cycle? And no sense running it longer than needed. Too short, and the heat exch might not get cooled off enough, and you lose some efficiency. Similar reasons for the cool side. The mfg probably want these set 'just right' for the efficiency rating tests they have to submit.

-ERD50
 
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I actually run a dehumidifier in my garden shed for about 1 hr. starting now until Sept. It just keeps everything from getting moldy or rusty, and keeps the fertilizer from absorbing too much moisture.

I am using an old dehumidifier that probably lost some refrigerant. It freezes up after an hour anyway and doesn't work. So running it 1hr per day is good use of this old beast. I use an old fashioned heavy duty timer to run it. (The kind in the metal box with the metal wheel timer disk.)
I had a freezing up dehumidifier that I tossed. I wish I'd thought of the timer thing. Great idea!
 
No problem, I know it may not seem like it sometimes, but we do have lives outside this forum! :)

But I would be curious to see any refs if/when you get time.

I think the off delay has a couple purposes. One is efficiency - might as well extract the residual heat or cold from the Heat exchanger or coils. Second, for heat, it keeps the heat exch from over-heating, which could happen if the residual heat was not drawn off, and it might help keep the coil from developing a coating of ice - those extra 30~90 seconds will draw off enough cold to bring it above freezing.

Might be a 3rd reason, can't think of it now - but I really can't imagine how a few extra seconds will affect humidity overall, it take maybe a half hour to see a change when it is running full bore.

edit/add: "The point is there is a reason this time period is configurable due to this effect." - I don't think the configuration is for that effect (which I don't believe exists!). I think the simple reason is to allow for different sized units/ducts, etc. with the same control board. The 90S setting might start blowing cold air in heat mode at the end of the cycle? And no sense running it longer than needed. Too short, and the heat exch might not get cooled off enough, and you lose some efficiency. Similar reasons for the cool side. The mfg probably want these set 'just right' for the efficiency rating tests they have to submit.

-ERD50

Yeah, sure ERD50, I know how you like to have references. I'm back from church, atoned for my swearing, so we can discuss further. :LOL:

First: the blower delay is absolutely essential for heating mode and should always be present. You are right about that! It is important for the health of the heat exchanger, and of course is important for efficiency.

Second: this delay, and especially the fan speed must be matched to the tonnage of the unit. This is crucial, and perhaps what I might have slightly convoluted with the blower delay. All modern units have settings for speed based on cooling tonnage and heating BTU. The units usually default to a safe setting. Some installers don't bother any further. Safe doesn't always mean best comfort.

Even a properly sized unit that has too fast of a fan can reduce dehumidification. It is very important the installer get this correct. I wonder if OP had that looked into?

One other very oddball thing about de-humidification and blower delay is the design of the drip pan. Actual de-humidifiers drop into a bucket immediately out of the way of the air flow. Most HVAC units in the horizontal position have a large pan with drip water that lazily takes its way to find the exit. A vertical unit disposes of the condensate quicker. So I guess the problem is complex and really doesn't have a one-size-fits all solution. Vertical units may not even ever have the problem.

I did a bit of a search on stuff I found last summer when I was fixing my unit, and found that "blower off delay humidity" brings up some interesting conversations. Not everyone agrees, just as we don't here.

As for hard data, the only thing I could find this time is the Carrier marketing statement about this. It is marketing, so... take it as you see fit. I used to have this system which also included running the fan ultra-slow during humid events. It was kind of cool, but overkill when considering the extra up-charge for the feature. I found these modes would only rarely run only a few times per year.

Here's a pointer and quick quote to what I am talking about:
SmartEvaptTechnology— When paired with a compatible thermostat, this dehumidificationfeature overridesthe cooling blower off-delay when there is a call for dehumidification. By deactivating the blower off-delay, SmartEvap technology prevents condensate that remains on the coil after a dehumidification cycle from re-humidifying throughout the home. This results in reduced humidity and a more comfortable indoor environment for the homeowner.

Unlike competitive systems, SmartEvap technology only overrides the cooling blower off delay when humidity control is needed. Oncehumidityisbackincontrol,SmartEvapre-enablesthe energy-saving cooling blower off-delay.
https://resource.carrierenterprise...._59tp6a100e21--20_article_1429461218267_en_ss
 
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Yeah, sure ERD50, I know how you like to have references. I'm back from church, atoned for my swearing, so we can discuss further. :LOL:

First: the blower delay is absolutely essential for heating mode and should always be present. You are right about that! It is important for the health of the heat exchanger, and of course is important for efficiency.

Second: this delay, and especially the fan speed must be matched to the tonnage of the unit. This is crucial, and perhaps what I might have slightly convoluted with the blower delay. All modern units have settings for speed based on cooling tonnage and heating BTU.

Even a properly sized unit that has too fast of a fan can reduce dehumidification. It is very important the installer get this correct. I wonder if OP had that looked into?

One other very oddball thing about de-humidification and blower delay is the design of the drip pan. Actual de-humidifiers drop into a bucket immediately out of the way of the air flow. Most HVAC units in the horizontal position have a large pan with drip water that lazily takes its way to find the exit. A vertical unit disposes of the condensate quicker. So I guess the problem is complex and really doesn't have a one-size-fits all solution. Vertical units may not even ever have the problem.

I did a bit of a search on stuff I found last summer when I was fixing my unit, and found that "blower off delay humidity" brings up some interesting conversations. Not everyone agrees, just as we don't here.

As for hard data, the only thing I could find this time is the Carrier marketing statement about this. It is marketing, so... take it as you see fit. I used to have this system which also included running the fan ultra-slow during humid events. It was kind of cool, but overkill. I found these modes would only rarely run only a few times per year.

Here's a pointer and quick quote to what I am talking about:
https://resource.carrierenterprise...._59tp6a100e21--20_article_1429461218267_en_ss

Thanks, that ref does seem to back your claim, but as you say, I see it as marketing-speak. While it would do as they say, I just don't see it making any measurable difference. How can a fan running an extra 30 seconds or so make any appreciable difference in how much water in that pan evaporates? Just doesn't make sense to me.

And during some of that off delay, the coils will still be cold enough to condense, so you lose a bit of de-humidification on that end. I'm just not buying it.

edit/add - about fan speed for de-humidifcation - yes, that can be very important. When we repaced the HVAC in our previous home, I went high end (BTD!), two stage furnace/AC, variable speed fan. It had some 'smart' controls/algorithm for humidity control, it would keep it at the low stage and low fan speed so it would run longer (to get more air over the coils), and the lower fan speed meant the air cooled more and had more time for moisture to condense. Then, if the house wan't getting down to temp after some time (30 minutes?) or maybe just not dropping at all, it would increase the fan speed, and eventually go to the high stage. So if you set it up for humidity control, it would prioritize that, but maintain the temperature as a secondary priority.

I think it worked well, but I probably won't bother when I replace the HVAC in our new-to-us home (14 y/o HVAC now). The standard AC, if properly sized, does a good enough job, w/o the added complexity/cost. I also wasn't that thrilled with the 2-stage furnace - we adjust the heat up/down as needed, and in winter, I like to turn the heat up while I take a shower, so I get into a warm room and the steam is being circulated (and exhausted by the bath fan, but then the furnace blower helps). The 'problem' with the 2-stage furnace for that use is, it takes 20 minutes or so for it to decide the low stage isn't cutting it, so I can't get that quick blast of heat for a short time that I want. There was probably some way to over-ride that, but I don't think it would be easy to go back-forth as desired, and it was fine for other times.

-ERD50
 
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So if you set it up for humidity control, it would prioritize that, but maintain the temperature as a secondary priority.

I think it worked well, but I probably won't bother when I replace the HVAC in our new-to-us home (14 y/o HVAC now). The standard AC, if properly sized, does a good enough job, w/o the added complexity/cost.

This, my friend, is exactly the same conclusion I came to. When our system failed last year (after 22 years), I went with a less complicated solution. It is properly sized with the correct fan speeds for both heat and cooling. Done.
 
.... have a floor drain and hose connected so no emptying required ....

I don't have a floor drain, so I was emptying mine via the hose into the sump pump pit. Not ideal, since the pit is only crushed stones over dirt. So that was no doubt throwing some dampness back into the basement. :facepalm:

Eventually the light bulb went off - I put the dehumidifier on top of a utility shelf next to the basement sink, so the unit is higher than the sink and the hose runs into the sink drain.
 
I don't have a floor drain, so I was emptying mine via the hose into the sump pump pit. Not ideal, since the pit is only crushed stones over dirt. So that was no doubt throwing some dampness back into the basement. :facepalm:

Eventually the light bulb went off - I put the dehumidifier on top of a utility shelf next to the basement sink, so the unit is higher than the sink and the hose runs into the sink drain.

Maybe not so much. If the pit had standing water at the bottom, then adding a bit each day I don't think is going to make any real difference. The water is there, and evaporation into the basement would occur, the surface area would be the same.

If the pit is normally bone dry, then I suppose it would put some back in the air.

I plan on getting mine routed to the sump. It is sealed for radon control (I'll add a 'trap' to the sump drain pipe), I've never seen it be bone dry, and I assume we have good vapor barrier under the concrete floor (built 14 years ago, and I'm not seeing a lot of 'shortcuts'). So I don't see how that could add humidity to the basement.

Since I have a 2nd sump pump and a battery back up pump, I'd rather add a few extra cycles to my sump pump, than to my utility pump that has no back up.

-ERD50
 
Maybe not so much. If the pit had standing water at the bottom, then adding a bit each day I don't think is going to make any real difference. The water is there, and evaporation into the basement would occur, the surface area would be the same.

If the pit is normally bone dry, then I suppose it would put some back in the air.

I plan on getting mine routed to the sump. It is sealed for radon control (I'll add a 'trap' to the sump drain pipe), I've never seen it be bone dry, and I assume we have good vapor barrier under the concrete floor (built 14 years ago, and I'm not seeing a lot of 'shortcuts'). So I don't see how that could add humidity to the basement.

Since I have a 2nd sump pump and a battery back up pump, I'd rather add a few extra cycles to my sump pump, than to my utility pump that has no back up.

-ERD50

Yes - I don't have standing water in my sump pump pit. I only have water there during heavy rains.
 
Have I missed any discussion of electricity cost? The reason we went to the trouble of isolating our dirt basement in the town house (using heavy plastic sheeting) was that our dehumidifier was costing us a lot to run. IIRC we jumped from $60 to $80 (and that was back when electricity was "only" $.30/KWH.) We did not have AC (well, just a window one in the BR that we used maybe 5 times/year.)

Realistically, a dehumidifier is a small AC that you put inside a closed space. The coils get cold and knock down the humidity (condense the water) and the heat from the hot side melts any ice and lowers the humidity by heating the room air (so, lower amount of water in the air plus higher temp. of the air comes out to lower relative humidity.)

My point, it's an "AC" and they are relatively energy intensive. I decided "There must be a better way" and there was. I'm sure we didn't completely cure the RH issue, but there was a noticeable decrease in RH by just isolating the exposed dirt.

SO, I'm sure we could all justify the cost since we don't want mold growing, but the cost is not insignificant for some of us. Maybe if you are running a 6 ton AC everyday, you don't notice the cost contribution of the dehumidifier in the basement, but it's there. Thoughts? (As YMMV.)
 
Have I missed any discussion of electricity cost?
You may be the first to bring it up, and it is a good point. The electricity use is not insignificant. It helps to have a high quality unit with a good humidistat.

We improved the HVAC flow in that space and could probably get away with just that, but we feel better having the adjunct moisture control in order to avoid problems. We have our washer in there too, so we don't have a lot of choice on even adding more moisture.

The moisture can do a lot of damage. Besides just making stuff smell bad, it can cause damage. I guess my time doing disaster relief and mold remediation has made a mark on me. I've seen every kind of bad floor joist known to man... from just a few mold specks, to joists completely destroyed.

Some other alternatives might be to integrate the HVAC better
 
Have I missed any discussion of electricity cost? The reason we went to the trouble of isolating our dirt basement in the town house (using heavy plastic sheeting) was that our dehumidifier was costing us a lot to run. IIRC we jumped from $60 to $80 (and that was back when electricity was "only" $.30/KWH.) We did not have AC (well, just a window one in the BR that we used maybe 5 times/year.) ....

SO, I'm sure we could all justify the cost since we don't want mold growing, but the cost is not insignificant for some of us. Maybe if you are running a 6 ton AC everyday, you don't notice the cost contribution of the dehumidifier in the basement, but it's there. Thoughts? (As YMMV.)

I looked at my notes, ours, rated at 50 pints/day (what an odd measure!), cost ~ $200 last year, and uses ~ 550 watts full on. So ~ $.05/hour that it runs.

How much it runs per day is a big variable. As I mentioned upstream, rather than set it to "AUTO" (which, IMO has it cycle too much), I just turn it on to the 4 hour "delay OFF" setting (it has a 2 and 4 hour setting) when I see the RH% creeping up. In humid whether, that might only be 2 or three times a day, sometimes not at all, I haven't really kept track that closely. And we don't need it at all Fall through Spring.

But even at 12 hrs/day for a month, that's ~ $0.60 per day, ~ $18/month. Not far from your number - though electricity was cheaper then, I bet that old unit was far less efficient.

But I don't think ours runs anywhere near 12 hours a day for a full month. I'll try tracking closer this year. Last year was more of a "get it done" year, just so many things to 'tweak' after a move. This year is more of a 2nd pass improvement year.

-ERD50
 
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