Food Additives Banned in Europe but not in the USA.

[OldShooter]

The serious stuff has been dealt with and the people involved want to keep their jobs. So we start hearing of dire perils in the parts-per-billion range. It has little to do with actual danger.

Re Roundup, juries are basically incompetent to make scientific and statistical decisions. Twelve times ignorance does not equal intelligence. So we periodically get spectacular jury awards but have no way to know whether the tearful theatrics of the lawyers and plaintiffs is the cause or whether there is actually something there to worry about.

 

[ERD50]

...

I never have eaten much oatmeal or breakfast cereals containing oats (as I try to avoid most highly processed foods in general), but after reading how Roundup is routinely used as a dessicating agent on oats before harvesting, I think I will make it a point to never eat any of that stuff again. Why even such a practice is permitted is beyond me.

After reading the additional information - do you still feel that way? Never eat anything containing oats? (edit - sorry, I cross posted with you, will need to catch up and adjust of needed)

Getting that strict would seem to result in avoiding almost everything. Much of the stuff 'organic' farmers use has not been tested to this level, so we really don't know. Some that was GRAS (Generally Regarded as Safe) was found not to be, and removed from the 'organic' designation. So who knows?

-ERD50

 

[Clone]

There have also been three consecutive large jury verdicts against Bayer (who recently acquired Monsanto) in cases where people who used Roundup claimed it caused their cancer. Here is a short article about that:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-award-in-roundup-cancer-trial-idUSKCN1SJ29F

In that article, there is a link to their investigation of the IARC ruling. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...d-out-non-carcinogenic-findings-idUSKBN1CO251
It looks like the IARC ruling was very questionable science. This ruling is the basis for a lot of the 'facts' that are now being published.

The challenge with our current dissemination of information system is that anyone can make any claim, and find evidence to support those claims. If you have the money, we can find the academics to 'research' and publish the results that you want. That is not the way it should be. We can also find government regulation that has been twisted to either support or suppress corporate entities. That also is not the way it should be.

I find that there is so much bad science out there, and so many agenda charged accusations, that I don't know if there are any decent sources anymore. Which lead me to simply embrace my own preferences and exist in my own echo chamber. I appreciate the reuter's link. Their article reads like a breath of fresh air (whatever that might be defined as...).

 

[ERD50]

Persistence of Roundup in soil:

"Field studies cited in the report show the half-life of glyphosate in soil ranges between a few days to several months, or even a year, depending on soil composition. The authors say the research demonstrates that soil sorption and degradation of glyphosate vary significantly depending on the soil’s physical, chemical, and biological properties."

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/glyphosate-persistence-raises-questions/9510.article

Sounds good to me, days to months, and not more than a year (and what % makes it past months?).

Sometimes results tell us a lot more than raw analysis - in this case, an org with some fairly obvious bias (which is OK, just take it into consideration), found levels ~ 1 ppM (and you know they were looking for the highest they could), and that results in the extremely low concerns that I pointed out. The studies couldn't really make a connection based on consumption levels of 4,000x their body weight in oat cereal, per day!

Let's try the math again, the studies were around 4,000mg/kg bw/day. So for an 80 kg human, that's 320 grams/day. A quick search brought up a wide range of numbers for pounds of food a person eats a day, but I'll go with ~ 5 lbs, and round to 2.5 kg. So 320/2500 = 0.128 which is 128,000 ppM (give or take).

And you really think we should be worried about an occasional 1 ppM in a portion of our food that we probably don't even eat every day? Like I said, if you are that concerned, you better do a deep dive into everything you eat, drink, or are exposed to. Being 'natural' is no assurance of safety (why do avoid lead, arsenic, poison mushrooms, black widow spiders, etc?).

edit/add: 320 grams is almost half a cup! Can you imagine drinking 1/2 cup of RoundUp right out the package, every single day for years! Geez, I bet there are lots of things we could not consume that much of w/o ill effects, and we don't even think about it. Some perspective is needed!

-ERD50

 

[RAE]

After reading the additional information - do you still feel that way? Never eat anything containing oats?
-ERD50

Yes, I still plan to avoid oats. It's not a big sacrifice for me anyway, as I don't eat oatmeal and I don't eat breakfast cereal in general. But even if I did, I would stop eating oats based on the glyphosate numbers they found on oats through testing (which is way higher than what they found on any other agricultural product, at least to my knowledge). I understand that it's still well below the EPA tolerance limits, but the EPA limits are over 6X higher than the European Union tolerance limits, so nobody really knows for sure what level is safe. Further, there are mixed opinions in the scientific literature about whether Roundup is carcinogenic in humans or not (so the science is clearly not settled). And the use of any herbicide as a crop dessicant strikes me as a very bad idea, in general. Given those facts, it doesn't make sense to me to consume products containing oats. I know that there are pesticide residues on many fruits and vegetables (and other crops), and I will acknowledge that it's probably virtually impossible to avoid consuming any of that stuff in today's world. I do try eat as many veggies as possible from my own vegetable garden, though, and I use no pesticides/herbicides there. So, I do what I can to minimize my exposure to them.

I'm not telling anyone else what to do - just explaining my rationale for avoiding oats, since you asked.

 

[ERD50]

The Law of Unintended Consequences is one of my favorite truths in life.

Interestingly enough I learned one of its corollaries from an acquaintance who was a strong environmentalist. The corollary is "You can never do just one thing." ...

That's an interesting way to turn it. It's true, isn't it.

Along those lines...

... And the use of any herbicide as a crop dessicant strikes me as a very bad idea, in general. ....

That was my initial thought as well, considering the spraying is so close to harvest (though I still am not really all that concerned). But then, reflecting on the above....

Hmmm, what if by getting the crop to dry out faster, it reduces the levels of molds and fungi? IIRC, there are some mold and fungi that have health issues, and has anyone tried feeding these molds/fungi to animals at 128,000 ppM levels for years?

So maybe, just maybe, applying RoundUp as a desiccant is actually a healthy thing to do? Who can know? I would not rule it out, and with the risks so apparently low, I just can't get worked up about it.

... I do try eat as many veggies as possible from my own vegetable garden, though, and I use no pesticides/herbicides there. So, I do what I can to minimize my exposure to them.

I'm not telling anyone else what to do - just explaining my rationale for avoiding oats, since you asked.

That makes sense, I mean, why not avoid the 'stuff' that we don't really know for sure if it may be harmful. And you have the opportunity by doing your own gardening, so I can appreciate that.

My issue is more with the activists that push for/against some of these things, and may very well be doing more harm (for the general public, overall) than good.And likely raising prices in the process. As pointed out above, RoundUp won't just go away, something will be used in its place.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

A couple of years ago, when visiting Death Valley I learned of the operation to mine borax there 100 years ago.

I researched the different uses of borax, and learned about the use of it as a food additive and preservative. The use of borax in food has been a controversial issue, and borax is still used today in caviar. Interesting subject!

 

[target2019]

Who's to say that established limits are good for a particular individual? Roundup on my Cheerios? Good for the heart? What a maroon I've been...

 

[BigNick]

The claims of cancer causing violates many scientific principles, but many of the anti-glyphosate folks hang their hats on it. And the lawyers are interested in their percentage more than they are interested in the safety of the chemical.

The main impetus behind the attacks on glyphosate, at least in Europe, comes from people who are opposed to GMOs. One of the classic GM tricks is to make your crop glyphosate-resistant, so you can spray it without needing to keep it off the crop, thus getting rid of more weeds for less effort. The leader in this technology is Monsanto, who invented glyphosate. But crucially, I think, glyphosate is out of patent and can be made by anybody.

I asked an online biochemist friend about this and he doesn't think there is anything wrong with glyphosate, based partly on the structure of the molecule. It's certainly likely to be less harmful to health than halogen-based weedkillers like 2,4-tD and 2,4,5-T (aka Agent Orange - which Monsanto didn't manufacture during the Vietnam War; they bought the company that did afterwards).

I worry that we are starting to see the elimination of a lot of cheap, useful, and essentially harmless (bio)chemical products, due to the Facebook mob phenomenon. The glyphosate story reminds me a lot of the attacks on vaccines: Anyone who argues for the status quo is quickly accused of being in the pockets of the industry. The elimination of glyphosate would have less immediate consequences for public health than the continued erosion of vaccination rates, but there would be an impact on food prices all the same, notably in developing countries.

 

[flintnational]

Who's to say that established limits are good for a particular individual? Roundup on my Cheerios? Good for the heart? What a maroon I've been...

I am low carb. So I don't eat cheerios. But, I do add glyphosate to my eggs! I try to stay under the EPA limits though.

 

[target2019]

I am low carb. So I don't eat cheerios. But, I do add glyphosate to my eggs! I try to stay under the EPA limits though.

What do you use to portion your glyphosate? World's smallest measuring spoon?

 

[flintnational]

What do you use to portion your glyphosate? World's smallest measuring spoon?

I had not participated in a thread today. And, this was the best I could come up with.

 

[NW-Bound]

I am low carb. So I don't eat cheerios. But, I do add glyphosate to my eggs! I try to stay under the EPA limits though.

What do you use to portion your glyphosate? World's smallest measuring spoon?

You can use dilution, in the manner of homeopathic dilution, but don't go too far or there's nothing left.

 

[target2019]

I had not participated in a thread today. And, this was the best I could come up with.

Alternatively, you could use a micro scale, measure carefully, and add to your eggs.
This is the best I can come up with after being tapped on the bridge on the drive home.
[emoji51]

 

[flintnational]

Alternatively, you could use a micro scale, measure carefully, and add to your eggs.
This is the best I can come up with after being tapped on the bridge on the drive home.
[emoji51]

Yikes. I hope everyone is ok.

 

[flintnational]

You can use dilution, in the manner of homeopathic dilution, but don't go too far or there's nothing left.

Yea, I want to make sure I get all the benefits. Why should the cherrios crowd get all the best chemicals?

ETA: Why can't they add hallucenogens to our food?

 

[NW-Bound]

Does MJ cause hallucinations, or only causes takers to giggle silly like often portrayed in movies? If it does, one can now readily get the ingredient for the job, instead of using some exotic mushrooms as I read about.

 

[Clone]

What do you use to portion your glyphosate? World's smallest measuring spoon?

You really don't need to worry about adding it. A quick Google search shows that the glyphosate is already installed!

“Of note is the finding that our samples of organic cage-free eggs contained more glyphosate than the allowable tolerance level.”

I am very concerned, however, that I could not find a link to the study being quoted, or even a link to where I could donate some money! I think the primary desired outcome is that I need to be scared of the monster under my bed.

 

[flintnational]

You really don't need to worry about adding it. A quick Google search shows that the glyphosate is already installed!

But, but, but, I pay $5 per dozen for eggs. I thought that protected me! The package includes the words, "pasture raised", "organic", and "only a smidge of glyphosate".

 

[Clone]

Does MJ cause hallucinations, or only causes takers to giggle silly like often portrayed in movies? If it does, one can now readily get the ingredient for the job, instead of using some exotic mushrooms as I read about.

I don't want to harsh your mellow, but studies show that MJ could be full of pesticides also.

Also in June, a white paper published by the Cannabis Safety Institute (an advisory group that provides research to the legal marijuana industry) revealed that many cannabis products contained pesticides at levels higher than what’s typically allowed for edible or smokable products. Of particular concern were the concentrates used to make candies, baked goods, and other edibles. Examples include concentrate samples with levels of carbaryl—a chemical typically used on fruits, vegetables, and ornamental plants—as high as 415 parts per million (by comparison, the tolerance for carbaryl on blueberries is three parts per million). Myclobutanil, a fungicide used to fight powdery mildew on vegetables, fruits, and leafy greens, was found at eight parts per million in pot flowers, and between 44 and 392 parts per million in concentrates (levels allowed on food items usually range from 0.1 to 10 parts per million). The paper also found residues for pesticides that aren’t allowed on any food crops.

 

[Clone]

But, but, but, I pay $5 per dozen for eggs. I thought that protected me! The package includes the words, "pasture raised", "organic", and "only a smidge of glyphosate".

Organic! We like the words, but how can we trust those evil food corporations!

The “USDA Organic” label on your produce aisle might not be as advertised. The inspector general released an audit yesterday that lights into agency officials tasked with overseeing organic standards.

The inspector general’s office decided it should look into this mess after alarming reports surfaced back in May that some 21 million pounds of conventional soybeans, plus a few million more of corn, had somehow entered American grocery stores carrying a bogus certified-organic label.

Farmers gripe that they have enough trouble as it is competing with cheaper foreign produce without sham “organic” importers finding ways to cut corners. The USDA failed to say in its report how widespread it thinks this problem is.

 

[NW-Bound]

I don't want to harsh your mellow, but studies show that MJ could be full of pesticides also.

... a white paper by the Cannabis Safety Institute (an advisory group that provides research to the legal marijuana industry)...

It sounds like a study to show the danger of consuming illicit MJ sold in the back alleys.

Surely, MJ grown in legal nice clean and enclosed greenhouses would not need to be sprayed with insecticides, and is all organic, wholesome, and conforming to all the requirements by FDA, EPA, USDA, FAA, CIA, DEA, etc...

Oops, no FAA nor CIA involvement here.

DEA?

 

[Clone]

DEA?

The DEA is probably responsible for traces of glyphosate found in cocaine!

Spraying with glyphosate began in the 1990s on a small scale and by the early 2000s it was established as a crucial aspect of Plan Colombia, a multibillion dollar push by the United States to aid in fighting rebel groups and drug traffickers in the country.

The challenge with all of this remains- who can you trust, and why? We are supposed to be alarmed and called to action about trace amounts. Then we find that the standard is suspect, the testing is suspect, and the science is suspect. On the flip side, the government is bought and paid for, the scientists will produce research based on where the grant money comes from and the popular press functions at a 2nd grade level.

What the heck are we worrying about anyways-

A harrowing new climate change report warns we may be on the way to extinction, claiming there is a “high likelihood” human civilization will come to an end by 2050 unless action is taken on greenhouse gas emissions.
The dire paper, which predicts a biblical-like scenario of devastating floods, drought, famine and a breakdown in international order, has been endorsed by the former chief of Australia’s military.

I need to change my FIRECalc to no more than a 30 year horizon!

 

[jimbee]

You can use dilution, in the manner of homeopathic dilution, but don't go too far or there's nothing left.

I think you've ignored water memory.